Update- Carrying of knives

[Cap'n Badger]

Grrr....I was writtin' an explaination t' Graham as per the questions posed....an' me connection got severed!......I'm bein' watched I think...ahahahah.
Right....here we go AGAIN! but a bit more abridged as me fingers are numb from tappin' these damn keys...lol
First one taken at bus station.....Sak that was on me keychain (returnin' from work)....passenger reported it t' the driver who radioed the peelers......after searchin' me daysack an' pocketsizz....asked why I was carryin' an' illegal knife.....Tried t' explain it wasn't an' I was a gardener.....but got given the choice o' handin' it in or goin' wi' them t' the station t' be questioned more....bein' that I was quite embarrest t' be explainin' mesel' in front o' a crowd o' gawpin' public...I gave it up....they still took me details tho.....
second was Train station where I lost two modified opinel number 7's t' the metal detector..(buy modified I mean they were converted t' slip blade by me)..It was totally my fault....packed the bernie Garland in me sleepin' bag at the bottom o' me berg...but forgot the two opi's in the side pocket.....was given the choice o' continuin' wi' me journey WI'OUT them....or goin' home...WI'OUT them.....so I caught the train.....again details taken.......I don't think they stand by reasonable cause....they just want knives off the streets....which I whole heartedly agree havin' lost a good mate t' street scum.

 

[BorderReiver]

i know that im not a criminal so i aint taking notice, its my hoby and the law wont stop me

If you carry a knife that is NOT a sub 3" non locking folder, in a public place, without a good LEGAL reason and you are stopped by the police, you can expect to be arrested and taken to court. If found guilty and there is no reason,in those circumstances, to think you won't be, you WILL be a criminal, with a record and your DNA on file, to prove it.

All we need is common sense and we won't have any bother.

 

[BorderReiver]

Grrr....I was writtin' an explaination t' Graham as per the questions posed....an' me connection got severed!......I'm bein' watched I think...ahahahah.
Right....here we go AGAIN! but a bit more abridged as me fingers are numb from tappin' these damn keys...lol
First one taken at bus station.....Sak that was on me keychain (returnin' from work)....passenger reported it t' the driver who radioed the peelers......after searchin' me daysack an' pocketsizz....asked why I was carryin' an' illegal knife.....Tried t' explain it wasn't an' I was a gardener.....but got given the choice o' handin' it in or goin' wi' them t' the station t' be questioned more....bein' that I was quite embarrest t' be explainin' mesel' in front o' a crowd o' gawpin' public...I gave it up....they still took me details tho.....
second was Train station where I lost two modified opinel number 7's t' the metal detector..(buy modified I mean they were converted t' slip blade by me)..It was totally my fault....packed the bernie Garland in me sleepin' bag at the bottom o' me berg...but forgot the two opi's in the side pocket.....was given the choice o' continuin' wi' me journey WI'OUT them....or goin' home...WI'OUT them.....so I caught the train.....again details taken.......I don't think they stand by reasonable cause....they just want knives off the streets....which I whole heartedly agree havin' lost a good mate t' street scum.

Bummer. Taking the SAK, I assume it was non locking, was well out of order. You should really have refused to hand it over. If arrested for that, you could sue for wrongfull arrest. That's usually worth about £1000 so I'm told.

The opi's were just bad luck.

 

[Cap'n Badger]

Sak's are ten t' the dozen mate.....I've since got a locker at work now.....so I keep me all me tools there.
As fer the 'goin' t' court t' plead me innocence o'er a slip blade?.......nah fella....got better things t' do in me life than dust off me suit an' take a day off fer a trivial mistermina.
The peelers do a hard job mate... an' I'm glad that we have the ability t' call them anytime o' the day ifin there be trouble in the street...(which there often is this side o' Cardiff)
.

 

[andywinkk]

If you carry a knife that is NOT a sub 3" non locking folder, in a public place, without a good LEGAL reason and you are stopped by the police, you can expect to be arrested and taken to court. If found guilty and there is no reason,in those circumstances, to think you won't be, you WILL be a criminal, with a record and your DNA on file, to prove it.

All we need is common sense and we won't have any bother.

i dont take any sharps into public places ? thats just foolish, im talking about on my way to to meets or the woods having several sharps in my bag and car, I will stand my ground we should'nt be tar'ed with the same brush has criminals

 

[Walks with dogs]

I'm planning on getting the train or bus to Skye in early april, wonder how much hassle they'd give me for having my leuku, mora, carving knife, folder and axe on me... I despair at a world where guilt is assumed if a copper (who, let's face it, is only human and therefore subject to snap judgements, poor judgement, bad moods, coffee withdrawal and a case of having a stick up ones... you get the idea) doesn't consider your reason adequate.

I reckon that in addition to these laws (which will have more of a negative impact on responsible, decent people than criminals IMO) there should be the opportunity to apply for a knife license, which would allow people to carry a specific knife (for example, I'd carry my tidioute ) without fear of having it taken away by overzealous or just petty cops. Obviously issuing such a license would be subject to circumstances. Even if I had to give them DNA and fingerprints, it would be well worth it. As it stands, the blade on my Tidioute is about 1/8" longer than 3" if measured from the bolster, or 1/8" shorter if measured from the start of the cutting edge to point. It's ridiculous, IMO, that I could be busted for a knife which would never be bought to use as a weapon. SWMBO bought me it, I can't risk losing it but I want to be able to use it!

I assume you are going up to Skye for a camping / bushcrafty type trip, in which case you would have reasonable excuse / good reason to possess those articles. Keep them in your bag, at the bottom, non accessible and don't draw attention to yourself. I have no idea what the law in Scotland is so can offer no advice there.

I would actually advise against writing to the train company for a number of reasons. First which company would you write to, the company that owns the station, the company that runs a retail outlet on the station should you pop in for a coffee, the company or companies that run the trans you will travel on, the stations you may change at etc, theres just too many companies involved these days.

Second, I guarantee you would get at best a letter back saying (wrongly) that it is unlawful to travel on the railway with a knife.

It is and always has been legal to carry a sharp /pointed object provided you have lawful authority or legal excuse. What has changed is the stage at which someone would be charged as opposed to cautioned should they be deemed to have done so unlawfully.

Here is a reasonably good link giving some direction..

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/CrimePrevention/DG_078569

Actually a better one is this , scroll down for legislation re knives and offensive weapons...

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880033_en_14

The advice I would give is this.

1) Don't draw attention to yourself.

2) If stopped by the police , be pleaseant and polite. I have stopped literally thousands of people and there is a test known as the attitude test. The bobby will be making a judgement call, help them make the right judgement.

3) If the officer asks to search you, ask ( politely )for the stop search record and an explanation of what gives grounds for the search and under what legislation you are being searched. Don't be obstructive . Be aware that under certain legislation no grounds are necessary before you can be searched.

4) If you are going to be searched, and you have a knife or anything sharp , tell the officer before they put their hands on you. Follow the instructions they give you, at this point the officer is dealing with someone of unknown risk who is in possession of a knife.

5) Tell the officer why you have it, be prepared to provide some additional evidence if you can. If on your way to a meet, the plethora of camping kit etc , firesteel, hobo stove, tarp etc should give a good indication.

6) If the officer finds a knife and suspects you have it unlawfully they will have to interview you, likely as not at a police station. You have the right to legal advice either in person or on the telephone. TAKE THAT ADVICE. Truth is the police are up against targets. I'm dead against it but I do know of people that have had a caution for taking a swiss army knife to a scouts meet. Many people take the opinion that they have done nothing wrong so they don't need to speak to a solicitor. WRONG. Especially if you haven't been through the system before. GET THE ADVICE.

The law is about right in my view. Provided it is sensibly applied that is. If you are carrying a blade or any item intending to use it as a weapon then you should be charged in my view. The problem for the legal system is in sorting the one from the other, and its a difficult process.

 

[widu13]

Just as aside (I'm not really a doomsayer!), bus and train companies can and do have "policies" for travel where persons either submit to a search/metal detector or don't travel. If any sharps are found even if lawfully carried they will refuse to allow you to travel unless you surrender it. Further to that most do not document or return them- they are melted down for scrap.

 

[wanderingblade]

....got better things t' do in me life than dust off me suit an' take a day off fer a trivial mistermina..

No offence but unless we are prepared to defend our civil liberties we have no right to complain when they are eroded.

One of the biggest threats to legal knife use / sale in the UK is not the screaming hysterics in the media - it's the apathy of the UK knife market / knife using public.

 

[Opal]

IMO, the day is near when we are going to be issued with a "knife carrying" card,

I'm all for it as long as yer hardware is carried safely.

 

[Cap'n Badger]

No offence taken fella......each t' they're own.

 

[BorderReiver]

Just as aside (I'm not really a doomsayer!), bus and train companies can and do have "policies" for travel where persons either submit to a search/metal detector or don't travel. If any sharps are found even if lawfully carried they will refuse to allow you to travel unless you surrender it. Further to that most do not document or return them- they are melted down for scrap.

Right.

Most forget that traveling on a train means that you are on the companies private property.

Their train, their rules.

I would advise the written approach in advance. If they say no way will you carry your sharps, even locked in a safe (joke) then think about another mode of transport. Alternatively, post your gear on and pick it it up at the local post office.

 

[myotis]

First one taken at bus station.....Sak that was on me keychain (returnin' from work)....passenger reported it t' the driver who radioed the peelers......after searchin' me daysack an' pocketsizz....asked why I was carryin' an' illegal knife.....Tried t' explain it wasn't an' I was a gardener.....but got given the choice o' handin' it in or goin' wi' them t' the station t' be questioned more....bein' that I was quite embarrest t' be explainin' mesel' in front o' a crowd o' gawpin' public...I gave it up....they still took me details tho.....
second was Train station where I lost two modified opinel number 7's t' the metal detector..(buy modified I mean they were converted t' slip blade by me)..It was totally my fault....packed the bernie Garland in me sleepin' bag at the bottom o' me berg...but forgot the two opi's in the side pocket.....was given the choice o' continuin' wi' me journey WI'OUT them....or goin' home...WI'OUT them.....so I caught the train.....again details taken.......I don't think they stand by reasonable cause....they just want knives off the streets....which I whole heartedly agree havin' lost a good mate t' street scum.

Interesting, so the SAK was sub 3" non-locker, but attached to an "external" key chain, so someone could see it. Is that right?

This still seems wrong to me that they took it off you. They should have explained to passenger and driver that this was perfectly legal. In that case it shouldn't have mattered about the gardener bit

Having said that, I keep my perfectly legal EDC SAK hidden in my pocket. I too would find it very embarrassing to have to explain why I had it, especially to a Policeman who seems not to understand the law.

The Opinel 7's have 8cm blades so technically illegal in a public place, ie train station so maybe we have to accept that, given they weren't buried in the bottom of your bag.

I gather from what you have written that they let you keep the "buried in your bag" Bernie Garland.

Graham

 

[BorderReiver]

i dont take any sharps into public places ? thats just foolish, im talking about on my way to to meets or the woods having several sharps in my bag and car, I will stand my ground we should'nt be tar'ed with the same brush has criminals

Ah, you didn't say that.

You have a perfectly valid reason in that case and if on the tiny chance you are arrested, you should walk away from court with no stain on your character.

 

[BorderReiver]

Interesting, so the SAK was sub 3" non-locker, but attached to an "external" key chain, so someone could see it. Is that right?

This still seems wrong to me that they took it off you. They should have explained to passenger and driver that this was perfectly legal. In that case it shouldn't have mattered about the gardener bit

Having said that, I keep my perfectly legal EDC SAK hidden in my pocket. I too would find it very embarrassing to have to explain why I had it, especially to a Policeman who seems not to understand the law.
The Opinel 7's have 8cm blades so technically illegal in a public place, ie train station so maybe we have to accept that, given they weren't buried in the bottom of your bag.

I gather from what you have written that they let you keep the "buried in your bag" Bernie Garland.

Graham

Not me mate. SAK in pouch on belt.

I would regard it as my duty to educate any policeman who was ignorant of s139 of the cja.

 

[Tengu]

But what about people like my father who thinks that knife laws cannot possibly have anything to do with him as a legimate tool user?

 

[Draven]

I'm not sure if I'll contact the bus/train company beforehand. It will probably be the bus just because it's cheaper, and it will probably be from St George Square (I think thats the one? Maybe St Andrews... I know edinburgh like the back of the hand but I'll be damned if I know more place names than "The royal mile" and "princes street") which has no bus station, so no metal detectors or the like. I've never seen/heard of metal detectors in Waverly either. Hell, I've been carrying knives back and forth to Skye on buses for years, it's just that hearing about all this knife law stuff has gotten me paranoid and I don't want to lose £100+ worth of sharps to overzealous police officers.

It's not a bushcrafty trip per se, I won't be doing any camping as SWMBO will be with me and I want to ease her into the outdoors slowly, being a city girl. I will be doing carving and hiking though, I hope to come back with a walking staff Maybe a kuksa if I can find some suitable dead wood. Hence, all I'll have as far as that stuff goes is my tidioute folder, mora carving knife, my mora knife, my leuku and my axe - they'd have to go by my word that they're for cutting wood and not people. Maybe I should print out some of the carving tutorials and bring them along just as backup. I want to review Leuku vs Axe too, so I could bring that up, but I've nothing to back that up either. I was also considering taking the mora knives along to a couple knifemakers I know up on Skye, to see what they think as a matter of curiosity. Would it help to tell them of this beforehand so I can reference them?

Would it be an idea to give the coppers in the burgh a call beforehand and let them know that I'll be travelling from their area with sharps intended for carving, just so if I get searched for whatever reason there'll be a note of it at the station?

Cheers
Pete

 

[andywinkk]

Ah, you didn't say that.

You have a perfectly valid reason in that case and if on the tiny chance you are arrested, you should walk away from court with no stain on your character.

Hope so matey,

 

[Cap'n Badger]

Tis true that opi's are 4mm o'er the limit.....(just measured one o' the remainin' 2 I still have)....so hands up fer those even ifin they were modefied...
As fer the sak...Shoulda had more sense t' leave it in me bag after work.....just one o' those things....didn't cost me owt...so no loss....It was more the passengers concern that there was a knife bearin' pirate lookalike covered in mud an' grass, aparently happy t' have a knife on show..lol...It don't matter that much t' me that the coppers got it wrong....But ifin I'm stopped in the future I'll be quotin' BR's writins word fer word...

 

[khimbar]

I've had three 'legal' knives taken from me by the peelers in the last year...Not been arrested yet tho...Apparently....even if you ARE returnin' from work dressed in Cardiff Council Parks uniform......they won't belive 'Gardeners' use knives fer prunin', openin' compost bags or gettin' thorns from under the skin......

Can you elucidate on the circumstances?

 

[Melonfish]

see now this is similar to me and friends in the airsoft community. we have to carry what in effect looks exactly like an assault rifle/pistol/shotgun/grenade launcher/machine gun to site locations.
basically we have bags to carry them in but the golden rule is never display and never advertise. granted what i'm carrying looks scary but tbh if people don't see it they don't know, i've never been stopped by the police dispite wearing full camo and carrying a large army ruck and gunbag (go figure) i've even travelled by train with my kit, same deal really.
i find as long as you have everything packed away in your ruck no one bothers you even if you are wearing camo etc.
you've got to remember that city folk don't see that carrying a knife is normal, to them a knife is demonised becuse of the obvious stabbing related news its not a tool to them but a weapon. just take away that fear and they won't mind, we can carry on whilst they remain ignorant.
not ideal granted but its the truth and generally how i've seen it work