Update- Carrying of knives

[myotis]

Not me mate. SAK in pouch on belt.

I would regard it as my duty to educate any policeman who was ignorant of s139 of the cja.

Its still hidden, and well yes, I have some sympathy with the education idea, but I would rather avoid it if I could.

Graham

 

[Red Kite]

There has been no change to the law, I cannot find the memo referred to but all it means is that when someone is charged then the case will be passed to the court to deal with.

The caution option allowed the police to deal with offenders who effectively admitted the offence. The offence would still come up on a CRB check whichever way it is dealt with.

Below is a link to the CPS website where they give their latest advice for dealing with this type of offence. Good luck with the legalspeak.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/...es_bladed_and_pointed_articles/index.html#a06

ATB

Stewart

 

[myotis]

Below is a link to the CPS website where they give their latest advice for dealing with this type of offence. Good luck with the legalspeak.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/...es_bladed_and_pointed_articles/index.html#a06
Stewart

Mmmm,

From the web site

a butterknife, with no cutting edge and no point is a bladed article; (Booker v DPP 169J.P. 368, DC)

Does this mean that every restuarant in the country is breaking the law - I assume a restuarant is a public place?

Graham

 

[wanderingblade]

Does this mean that every restuarant in the country is breaking the law - I assume a restuarant is a public place?

Being a resteraunt may count as 'reasonable cause' - unless it's a KFC - no excuse for cutlery there!

 

[Nagual]

Mmmm,

From the web site

a butterknife, with no cutting edge and no point is a bladed article; (Booker v DPP 169J.P. 368, DC)

Does this mean that every restuarant in the country is breaking the law - I assume a restuarant is a public place?

Graham

Simply put, no. They have permission as it's their place and lawful reason.

 

[myotis]

Wandering Blade and Nagual,

Well my comment was a bit tongue and cheek, it just seemed an odd thing to specify. Of course if I read the case, then I assume it would become clear.

Graham

 

[Jonny Crockett]

Hi Folks,

Just a few points.

I have been teaching knife law etc for sometime and whilst not being Rumpole of the Bailey I'm not exactly unaware of the whole thing.

Firstly, this memo is nothing new and is a sweeping statement encompassing everyone. When you drive your land rover down the M5, you don't expect a different speed limit to apply to you just because you are a bushcrafter. The same goes for the knife law. It appplies to everyone.

Secondly, trains are considered public places, because the public have access to them.

Thirdly, I would consider myself to have an extremely god reason for carrying a knife - and I used to. I have now broken the habit (quite deliberately) and only carry one when I am doing a job that requires one. It is a tool that should be treated like a hamer or a screwdriver. You wouldn't carry a hammer on a regular basis unless you really needed to.

Fourthly, unless we set an example, we may get jumped on. Let's set an exemplary standard to everyone else. That way our hobby and ways of life may exist for years to come.

Fifthly, if any of you want to talk through any knife issue, please feel free to call me on 01453 752220. If I can help, it would be worth the call.

Just remember - 'lawful authority' (try to get it in writing if you can) and 'good reason'.
Also remember that 'ignorance of the law' and 'just in case' are NOT excuses.

Happy carving folks and please excuse my jumping on to this thread.

 

[Nagual]

Wandering Blade and Nagual,

Well my comment was a bit tongue and cheek, it just seemed an odd thing to specify. Of course if I read the case, then I assume it would become clear.

Graham

Fair enough Graham! I suspect the reason for the butterknife being singled out and defined as a bladed knife even though there is no cutting edge or pointy bit is that if someone was waving one around, it's not likely you could tell it was a butterknife, even if not waving it around, it would be hard to tell I think. So this removes any chance of a muppet trying to .. I don't know.. hold someone up or rob them, pretending it was a 'real' knife, only to defend themselves in court by saying there is no cutting edge or pointy bit? Kinda like armed robbery with a toy gun.. Not sure but I'd guess it's something like that.

 

[myotis]

Yes I susect so to, but I would have thought it then became an offensive weapon and it wouldn't really matter if it were a butter knife, but then again maybe its a more serious charge if the offensive weapon is defined as a knife rather than a rolled up newspaper.

Graham

 

[Nagual]

Yes I susect so to, but I would have thought it then became an offensive weapon and it wouldn't really matter if it were a butter knife, but then again maybe its a more serious charge if the offensive weapon is defined as a knife rather than a rolled up newspaper.

Graham

Why would a butterknife be defined as a rolled up newspaper..


Sorry..

 

[durulz]

Hi Folks,

Just a few points.

I have been teaching knife law etc for sometime and whilst not being Rumpole of the Bailey I'm not exactly unaware of the whole thing.

Firstly, this memo is nothing new and is a sweeping statement encompassing everyone. When you drive your land rover down the M5, you don't expect a different speed limit to apply to you just because you are a bushcrafter. The same goes for the knife law. It appplies to everyone.

Secondly, trains are considered public places, because the public have access to them.

Thirdly, I would consider myself to have an extremely god reason for carrying a knife - and I used to. I have now broken the habit (quite deliberately) and only carry one when I am doing a job that requires one. It is a tool that should be treated like a hamer or a screwdriver. You wouldn't carry a hammer on a regular basis unless you really needed to.

Fourthly, unless we set an example, we may get jumped on. Let's set an exemplary standard to everyone else. That way our hobby and ways of life may exist for years to come.

Fifthly, if any of you want to talk through any knife issue, please feel free to call me on 01453 752220. If I can help, it would be worth the call.

Just remember - 'lawful authority' (try to get it in writing if you can) and 'good reason'.
Also remember that 'ignorance of the law' and 'just in case' are NOT excuses.

Happy carving folks and please excuse my jumping on to this thread.

It's useful to have someone who has good knowledge of these laws offering comment.
But here's the thing (and it's something you didn't really address in the above post) - in your experience, do you think the average bushcrafter, on public land, is likely to be charged for knife offences if apprehended by a police officer? Let's assume they are away from the public (but still on public land) - deep in the woods - with other camping/bushcrafting paraphernalia - that is, obviously out in the countryside needing the knife for a purpose, keep the item out of the way when not in use (e.g. back in the pack, though not necessarily at the bottom - after all, it may be needed again. But out of sight and put away nonetheless). That is, the item is obviously being used in context.
Do you think a charge would be brought in this scenario?
I, for one, would appreciate the comments of someone who 'knows'.
May sound a tad arrogant, but if you have no real knowledge or experience of the law relating to knives then could you please NOT respond to this post. Only those who know the law, or maybe a serving police officer etc, please respond. THat way it avoids ambiguity and we get feedback from those 'in the know'. If you do respond could you please qualify your qualifications for responding. I only say this to avoid the opinionated.

 

[myotis]

Why would a butterknife be defined as a rolled up newspaper..
Sorry..

Graham

 

[myotis]

But here's the thing (and it's something you didn't really address in the above post) - in your experience, do you think the average bushcrafter, on public land, is likely to be charged for knife offences if apprehended by a police officer?

I have no qualifications to speak on this at all, but some insight into police thinking can be gleaned from this thread here:

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=31449

But it takes some wading through, to pick out the bits relevant to your question

Graham

 

[widu13]

It's useful to have someone who has good knowledge of these laws offering comment.
But here's the thing (and it's something you didn't really address in the above post) - in your experience, do you think the average bushcrafter, on public land, is likely to be charged for knife offences if apprehended by a police officer? Let's assume they are away from the public (but still on public land) - deep in the woods - with other camping/bushcrafting paraphernalia - that is, obviously out in the countryside needing the knife for a purpose, keep the item out of the way when not in use (e.g. back in the pack, though not necessarily at the bottom - after all, it may be needed again. But out of sight and put away nonetheless). That is, the item is obviously being used in context.
Do you think a charge would be brought in this scenario?
I, for one, would appreciate the comments of someone who 'knows'.
May sound a tad arrogant, but if you have no real knowledge or experience of the law relating to knives then could you please NOT respond to this post. Only those who know the law, or maybe a serving police officer etc, please respond. THat way it avoids ambiguity and we get feedback from those 'in the know'. If you do respond could you please qualify your qualifications for responding. I only say this to avoid the opinionated.

TBH it depends on the officer on the ground. I try to teach my lot the complexities, powers and exceptions in law. but honest mistakes are made. I would say that you are 85% safe whilst bushcrafting on the ground and 100% safe at the police station.


HTH

 

[Walks with dogs]

Durulz, the answer to your question isn't easy. The difficulty lies in that the law is a "living instrument" and is deliberately worded so that it has to be interpreted according to the circumstances. Is the person you describe in the above scenariolikely to be charged? I would say not. But it is possible that under the wrong circumstances they could be.

I would take some comfort from this, thus far, to the best of my personal knowledge, despite the fact that many on here carry out the acts you describe , I have yet to hear of a bushcrafter being prosecuted for carrying a knife whilst out and about so to speak.

Edited to add.

Can't believe noone has linked here already..http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8336

 

[sandbender]

I'm planning on getting the train or bus to Skye in early april, wonder how much hassle they'd give me for having my leuku, mora, carving knife, folder and axe on me...

I'd advise against attempting to secure written permission from the bus or train companies, their concern will be to minimize their liabilities and risk and so it is likely that they will take the easy option and say no.

If your tools are securely wrapped up and tied into a bundle at the bottom of your pack and you are in possession of a return ticket to your bushcrafting holiday destination then that should suggest that you have reasonable cause to have your tools with you, in the unlikely event that a police constable does question you, be polite and explain your plans, if that isn't sufficient in his or her eyes, seek legal advice at the first opportunity and do not accept a caution on the promise of your predicament being sorted out more quickly.

Additionally, have you visited Skye before? I cannot imagine that you will find many opportunities to use an axe there.

Even if I had to give them DNA and fingerprints, it would be well worth it.

No it wouldn't be, you have far too much confidence in your government and perhaps more importantly far too much confidence in any government yet to come.

 

[BigShot]

I need to make a polite request.


Can people PLEASE stop coming out with the classic "you're unlikely to get stopped and/or searched if you're not acting suspiciously" line?
It is not only miles from the truth and somewhat unhelpful, taking that approach is liable to get people into trouble if it isn't closely and inextricably coupled with a reccomendation to stay firmly within the definition of a folding pocket knife (3" or less, non locking).


I have been stopped more times than I can remember and many of those times have been searched.

I've been stopped while driving along (and driving well I might add)
I've been searched in the street (whilst doing nothing more suspicious that putting one foot in front of the other and moving in a general forwards direction).
I've been searched when walking through an area with a football stadium on match day (I didn't know it was a match day) even though I wasn't going to the ground.

You do NOT have to be acting suspiciously, breaking a law or dressed in a particular way to be searched.



As a side request - can we please stop looking at a knife licence as if it would be a good thing?
Looking to that kind of future in ANY kind of positive way is utter insanity. By looking for that we make a whole raft of mistakes, including legitimizing the view that knives are something so dangerous they need to be licenced, they are not.
By looking for that we necessarily refuse perfectly safe people their right to carry a sharp tool too, there are many reasons a non-violent person might be refused that licence and that should never be acceptable.
By looking for that we endorse this "war on knives" which is NOTHING MORE than a smokescreen to get around the complete and utter failure to win the "war on crime"! That failure has come about for a load of reasons, one of which is the simple fact that the focus has been more on the crime and the tools of crime rather than the much trumpeted "causes of crime".

We need to stop being so bloody complacent.
Those of us lucky enough to live in the countryside need to stop saying things which might get the more urban among us believing they are so very unlikely to be searched when that is simply not the case.
We need, even more, to stop making people think that if they don't act suspiciously they won't be searched when any urban area can have mandatory searches put in place.
We need to stop talking like the people who want knives off the street and stand our bloody ground instead.
We have nothing to be ashamed of, we have no reason to want, and no benefit to be gained from licencing and everything to lose when it comes to our freedom to carry a legitimate tool on a daily basis and to practice our hobbies when we can be seen to have "good reason".

While the law has not changed, this guidance is worryingly indicative of the way this society is going, and if those of us who stand to lose out don't do something, we WILL get down to a choice between breaking the law or carrying on as we currently can.

Rant over.

 

[Melonfish]

You do NOT have to be acting suspiciously, breaking a law or dressed in a particular way to be searched.

.

no but the police officer has to have reasonable cause to search you so in fact you must have in some way made the police officer think you were doing or carrying something that they would find interesting.

its that simple, police cannot just stop you in the street and say empty your pockets. no one has that right. they CAN if they have reasonable cause to do so, but the only way they can have that is if you give it to them.

thought i'd add this:
http://www.medway.gov.uk/mixitindex/yourrights/stop_and_search.htm

 

[Melonfish]

oh well i'll go eat my own hat... apparently the police CAN just stop you for no reason as long as they make up whatever they want with regards to reasonable suspicion.

where's the boat i want to leave the country. rights? me? bugger no.

 

[Walks with dogs]

Melonfish, sorry mate but you're wrong on that one. Various pieces of legislation can and are used by officers to search without any reasonable grounds whatsoever. Mostly relate to football matches where a sec 60 is in place or searches under counter terrorism legislation- eg arches at rail stations.