Carrying an Axe/Knife and the Law

[Laurentius]

Returning to the original question.

I think on reconsideration that the problem is not necessarily with the law, it is the fact that Railways are private property and the operators have the ultimate right to say, who or what may be allowed on there property. That is to say there is no law that gives you the right to take anything onto a train that the operators don't want you to. You can carry your axe on the street outside the station, but necessarily go through the station with it.

In practice of course, what they don't know about they don't care about, the prime object is to make it difficult for the kids to carry there knives around and random searches in stations is a way of doing that. I think if you were to ask the police and the various authorities, whether there intention is to stop people going about there lawful business the answer would be no, however you can never account for the jobsworth's who don't understand what they are supposed to be doing and have an over literal interpretation of there instructions.

Of course the vast majority of people who are not impeded in there business, who are never stopped or inconveniences don't make the headlines, only when one of those jobsworths have there day, does the exception get reported, but in terms of risk it is minimal compared with all the other things that might happen.

 

[brambles]

I am concerned about the response that brambles gave; and I am seriously considering dropping into Uddingston police station and asking some questions.

Concerned in what way? And the police are very often the last people you should question regarding the law, for the reasons I highlighted earlier. There was a thread on here last year where a forum member had , at the request of the police, taken various bushy sharps to the police station to get their opinion about them and their first reaction was to completely unlawfully seize them, although they were later returned.

 

[Toddy]

It's more that I want to know how my local police will deal with sensible generally law abiding adults using tools in the local woods. I wanted to know more about the actions they would take.
You said that they would push it to the limit; but that the police will pay more heed to their superiors than go and learn the details of the law.
I resisted the temptation to come to their notice on the issue however.....and that kind of says it all, doesn't it ?

The mp who started pushing the slogan about carrying a knife go to jail, is local, very local but so are the killlings It's a knee jerk reaction and it's an untenable one, I think.
As I said though, most of my neighbours and others in the area have no concerns about the restrictions.
I know workmen do; I saw a lad refused a set of chisels in B&Q because he wasn't 18. He was with older workmates, but he was the one buying them, and since he was using his debit card, he was refused them. Even if he simply paid but one of his workmates 'bought' them. That can't be right; an apprentice joiner needs tools, and there are other cases like that too. Yet the anti all knives seems to be rampant. There was even a comment from the surgeons that pointed kitchen knives were unnecessary That pleased butchers and chefs no end
Yet local papers and assorted media, and police 'amnesties' to hand in sharps, seem to meet with widespread approval.
Majority rules and all that.

The young joiner and his older workmates just shrugged; the lad said he'd get his Dad to buy them for him later.
No one raised any fuss, it's just widely accepted. No one in the queue even spoke out and said that it was ridiculous, and in this area, trust me, folks aren't backward about giving their opinion.

Thank you for your input

cheers,
M

Links
http://www.hamiltonadvertiser.co.uk...is-murder-capital-of-scotland-51525-29047968/

http://www.eastkilbridenews.co.uk/l...gner-hits-out-at-tougher-laws-68653-32318545/

 

[Jared]

I remember there was almost a campaign to get stop using pointed kitchen knives, and just used rounded ones. I even thing that a few chefs got involved. Pretty much complete waste of time, as a few minutes with a grinder would prove. And a kid carrying a kitchen knife in public without good reason is already breaking existing laws.

It is nuts that someone just out of school and into some sort of job/education (eg culinary college) can't buy the tools of their trade.


If want/need to carry a knife 24/7, make it a split sub 3" SAK... gov websites explicitly mention it's legal, would imagine a court case would be amusing if it went that far.

https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/knives-offensive-weapons-and-the-law

 

[Tony]

I'm coming into this one late, it's quite the read and I'd like to ask people to stay on track with this thread, it's about knives/edged tools in scotland, which I'd say overlaps into the UK as a whole, it's got nothing to do with other countries and especially nothing to do with Guns etc, the original question doesn't encourage moving off the subject and this threads need to stay on subject because it's one of those threads that has so much potential to go down hill and then get binned.

So, keep it focused please, anyone that can't, stay out the thread completely please.

 

[Ex Member LoneGunnman]

My point is this :
I'm an outdoorsman, an axe, knife, is a tool to me. A weapon is used to hurt/cause pain/kill another. Therefore, what I own are tools. I have no intention to hurt/kill others.

Now, let's look at the law !!! & its enforcers :
Side handled baton - one purpose : to cause pain & can kill
Peppert spray - chemical weapon : to cause pain
Tazer - weapon : to cause pain
Firearm - weapon - to kill
Attack dogs -weapon : to cause pain

It seems to me, the law has more weapons than I do & - they have the intent & more than wilingness to use them !!!!
Some old fart judge - telling me - how my life is & will be & dictates my philosophies & ethics is as redundant as a dvd player to the Romans

I know right from wrong, I'm an adult !!!!!
Axe - tool - for chopping wood
Knife - tool - for cutting, skinning, etc ......... Not for murder !!!!! cheers

It seems the law treats us as children, dictating to us their versions of right & wrong & then punishes us for not conforming to their versions of what they see as their laws

I, own no weapons, I have no willingness to use my tools as weapons & I figured this out all by me lonseome !!!!

 

[Toddy]

.................and your point is ??

Seriously. How often do the police use those ? Once in a blue moon.
We are among the least policed nations in the world. Most folks who have commented said that they don't see a policeman from one month end to the next.

When we need them though, I'm rather glad that they do have suitable equipment.

No one here is disagreeing that our tools are not intended as weapons, but with intent almost anything can be utilised as a 'weapon' ......read the thread for details.

Bluntly, if you argue with the police with that attitude and you are carrying 'tools' whe you do it I wouldn't blame them if they lifted you and confiscated them. I'd defend your right to have them returned, but I'd understand why they got suspicious of you in the first place.

Chill, be civil, it really does work

Of course there's always the media appeal but then you can come across as an idiot just as quickly as the victim..........like the fellow who fed the police horse a Greggs sausage roll

cheers,
Toddy

 

[brambles]

Some old fart judge - telling me - how my life is & will be & dictates my philosophies & ethics is as redundant as a dvd player to the Romans

Judges do not make laws. Laws are made by politicians who are elected by voters , who include ...... you. Politicians are influenced by newspapers and the media, who pander to their readership and viewers, who include .... you. Laws are enforced by the police who are made up of and paid by the public, who include .... you. If you are going to get angry about the laws which affect your life, criticise the people who are actually responsible. I'm sure there's a mirror in your house somewhere

 

[widu13]

My point is this :
I'm an outdoorsman, an axe, knife, is a tool to me. A weapon is used to hurt/cause pain/kill another. Therefore, what I own are tools. I have no intention to hurt/kill others.

Now, let's look at the law !!! & its enforcers :
Side handled baton - one purpose : to cause pain & can kill
Peppert spray - chemical weapon : to cause pain
Tazer - weapon : to cause pain
Firearm - weapon - to kill
Attack dogs -weapon : to cause pain

It seems to me, the law has more weapons than I do & - they have the intent & more than wilingness to use them !!!!
Some old fart judge - telling me - how my life is & will be & dictates my philosophies & ethics is as redundant as a dvd player to the Romans

I know right from wrong, I'm an adult !!!!!
Axe - tool - for chopping wood
Knife - tool - for cutting, skinning, etc ......... Not for murder !!!!! cheers

It seems the law treats us as children, dictating to us their versions of right & wrong & then punishes us for not conforming to their versions of what they see as their laws

I, own no weapons, I have no willingness to use my tools as weapons & I figured this out all by me lonseome !!!!

I was a policeman for 22 years. I taught "side handled" baton courses and can tell you right now that the primary function of a SHB is as a defensive tool. A kipper is for eating but can be used for slapping someone with!

A taser does cause pain; that is not it's primary function, which is to disrupt the nerve connections rendering the muscles incapable of acting upon nerve commands.

Pepper spray, a defensive tool, using natural or food grade derivatives of pepper sold worldwide for that very purpose where other weapons are not allowed.

A firearm- a weapon to kill? No it's not! They are however, lethal barrelled weapon capable of killing just as is a knife or axe.

Attack dogs. Not used by the British police, they do use police dogs though. An attack dog could not be used by the police.

If you don't like our laws, go somewhere else! If you don't want to go elsewhere (and you don't have to), you can certainly opt out of society but you can't opt out of the law!

 

[Ex Member LoneGunnman]

There seems to be misunderstanding, in what I'm saying
This is about us as outdoors people. We are not criminals & I am not willing to be treated as such. There's a big difference between me with an axe & a mad axeman !!!

The law & its enforcers, carry more weapons than me & appear more than willing to use them & justify their use !!!
They decide what's qcceptable to me, well no - that's my job to decide what's acceptable to me

If I wish to go to peaceful, quiet places & be left alone, but require certain tools to help with my survival. Who's to critcise ??
The guy in the body armour with baton & peppeer spray - who's clearly carrying more weapons than me !!!

Either - you want to carry your axes & knives & be left alone (which is what your saying) or you want these armed law makers saying 'you can't have that, as we deem it offensive'

You chose, but don't bitch at me - for pointing out - they have more weapons , willingness & intent to use them - than I will ever have !!!

 

[Laurentius]

The hoodie with the knife is a classic "folk devil" to use sociologist Stanley Cohen's term. The public remain ignorant because they rely and believe in the press, who profit from sensationalist stories. The legislators are afraid of the public and so legislate to keep them happy, however they do so without regard to the facts either, since they are no better informed than the public. The only counter to it is a strong lobby on behalf of outdoors people and others reliant upon a knife. There is no overall body that has taken this up. No equivalent of the ramblers association fighting for open access, no British equivalent of the NRA (albeit they are losing credibility in the USA these days for taking things too far) no group prepared to stage a mass walk through Glasgow town centre, axes strapped to packs in full compliance with the law as it is. Maybe we need to argue that a knife or an axe is part of our national costume, but then again the hoodies could argue a bread knife is part of there's couldn't they, they certainly seem to think it is.

 

[boatman]

Actually there are several accounts of tasers and firearms being used wrongly. Misjudgement by the policeperson, failure of nerve on their part? I don't know but do not pretend that police equipment has not been employed in error or with malice. Remind me not to carry a chair leg in a bag, that could be fatal.

 

[Toddy]

I don't know where you think you live, LoneGunnman but it's not here.

Our police do not randomly attack people, their tools are intended for defence and control, they don't just take a notion to go and beat up unsuspecting outdoor types

They are required to justify every single time they use any of the above equipment. They are required to justify not only to their own service's questions, but those of the Procurator Fiscal's office, and if it goes to court, to the Sheriff, Magistrate, etc.,

The mince you have spouted amounts to slander. On here that's strongly discouraged.

I admit I disagree with some of the restrictions re carrying knives, but it hardly amounts to oppression
If it gives the police the edge in dealing with the numpties that have turned this peaceful county into the murder capital of Europe; fair enough.
14 deaths in 12 months are fourteen families distraught and 14 more visiting sons in prison and the concommitant upset and distress within the community has led to this present state of affairs.

So we can't wear a sheath knife in public without a good reason, i.e. we're going to use in our present activity. It's not a big deal.......or is your ID somehow dependant on showing you have a big knife ?
To most folks the restrictions simply don't matter. That it does to us really doesn't bother them one whit, most find it reasuring that the numpties are being restricted, and they see the falling knife assaults figures as proof that it's working.

Now if we could have the details clarified, so that the appropriate use of the appropriate tool in an appropriate place, doesn't get ordinary folks worried or in bother, it'd be a very good thing.
It'll come, I just wish it would hurry up a bit. I refuse to discuss the politics of the situation, but they are crucial to the whole affair.

**********************
The Mods are fed up keeping an eye on this thread folks. I can't Mod it, I'm too involved in the thread; though I can, and will, Mod individual posts that contravene general site guidelines.
Please pay attention to Tony's request.
**********************

cheers,
M

 

[Toddy]

The hoodie with the knife is a classic "folk devil" to use sociologist Stanley Cohen's term. The public remain ignorant because they rely and believe in the press, who profit from sensationalist stories. The legislators are afraid of the public and so legislate to keep them happy, however they do so without regard to the facts either, since they are no better informed than the public. The only counter to it is a strong lobby on behalf of outdoors people and others reliant upon a knife. There is no overall body that has taken this up. No equivalent of the ramblers association fighting for open access, no British equivalent of the NRA (albeit they are losing credibility in the USA these days for taking things too far) no group prepared to stage a mass walk through Glasgow town centre, axes strapped to packs in full compliance with the law as it is. Maybe we need to argue that a knife or an axe is part of our national costume, but then again the hoodies could argue a bread knife is part of there's couldn't they, they certainly seem to think it is.

No way would that go down well in Glasgow See the thread on cavalry. If Scottish police will charge protesters at a Gsomething or other summit in Auchterarder, they and the Sheriff courts will have no compunction about flinging the book at us for causing a breach of the peace and every other thing they can possibly think of. The general public would back them up; wanting to carry an axe in the city centre makes that individual a 'nutter', heidbanger, bampot, eejit,....think perjorative adjective of local choice.

The hoodies with knives live in our local towns.....see my links above to the local newspapers that were covering the deaths.


M

 

[Laurentius]

I am so remote from Glasgow that I don't know the local situation, What is of concern, which applies evenly wherever you live is that there is no absolute right to carry something like an axe through a station onto a train so you have to be careful and that is all. The station staff could at any point refuse to let you any further, and if you got awkward summon BTP to assist. They might if they felt particularly nervous leave you alone and summon BTP to pick you up later on, an event that usually annoys other passengers, because the train is inevitably delayed, while the police pile on, combing the carriages for there man. I am sure most of us have seen this as rail passengers at one time or another, though most usually caused by a drunken passenger refusing to pay.

On the other hand you could carry a small nuclear bomb onto a train providing it was concealed in your luggage and you looked respectable enough. In other words the best advice is to act discrete, don't look like a tearaway, and keep your tools under cover. If challenged be polite, but firm, back down and miss the train if you have to, and get a taxi or bus to the next point.

There is nothing I have seen in recent times, and that includes the knife arch at the bus station, that is going to stop me confidently carrying my SAK, in my pocket through Birmingham New Street or any other main line station in England or Wales at least. I carried it with me through Euston only last week.

 

[jacko1066]

This is a great thread guys, some really interesting points of view and facts.

I had not really thought about carrying sharps on public transport before now, but next week Im off to the Northwood meet, and I plan on taking advantage of my staff pass and travel to nuneaton by train.

So in the very unlikely chance that the Bt police ask me to turn out my bag even after I have shown my staff pass, and they come across my mora wrapped up in something deep inside my bag, as its been said various times on this thread, they try and caution me and I quite rightly refuse, after explaining to them very poilitely why I am carrying it, on what grounds do I actually refuse? And after I refuse what is the likely next step by the officers?

Like I say its incredibally unlikely I would be searched especially as Im staff and I wont be travelling all camo'd or anything.
I will just be a normal punter but with a bag way to big lol.

Cheers
Steve

 

[brambles]

You only accept a police caution on the basis that you admit you are committing a crime, since you will not be committing a crime, you do not accept the caution. A more pertinent question in your scenario is, on what grounds are they charging you and offering a caution?

 

[Laurentius]

The only possible grounds they could have for charging you would be a) they did not believe you had a good enough reason, but you do. Or b) they could accuse you of behaving in an aggressive manner toward them but you are not going to do that.

You would refuse on the grounds that you have a legitimate reason for carrying the knife, which in itself is not a prohibited weapon, and therefore they had no grounds for a caution. You would argue that it was not readily available in the event of an altercation and therefore no provocation could be involved. The ball would be back in there court. I expect they might detain you temporarily while they got advice on what to do next as they would probably be a bit nonplussed too.

It is as much a psychological game as a legal one, you need with your body language and demeanour to convey a sufficient degree of insecurity in there mind to make them think there is a lot of paperwork involved and it is simply not worth it just to score points.

 

[santaman2000]

The only possible grounds they could have for charging you would be a) they did not believe you had a good enough reason, but you do. Or b) they could accuse you of behaving in an aggressive manner toward them but you are not going to do that.

You would refuse on the grounds that you have a legitimate reason for carrying the knife, which in itself is not a prohibited weapon, and therefore they had no grounds for a caution. You would argue that it was not readily available in the event of an altercation and therefore no provocation could be involved. The ball would be back in there court. I expect they might detain you temporarily while they got advice on what to do next as they would probably be a bit nonplussed too.

It is as much a psychological game as a legal one, you need with your body language and demeanour to convey a sufficient degree of insecurity in there mind to make them think there is a lot of paperwork involved and it is simply not worth it just to score points.

While I'm not there obviously and have no first hand knowledge of your "caution" system, From everything I've seen here on the forum, in this and other threads, this answer seems completely logical.

The question is, will they feel strongly enough about it to detain you for further investigation? If so, do you have time to burn during said detention? (even if you're absolutely sure you'll prevail in the long run)

I think that's why many are concerned about the prospect of being offered the choice. If they accept the caution, they have a permanent blot on their records. If they refuse it and are detained (even if they subsequently prevail) They might be in a position where they miss a critical appointment with equally permanent consequences.

 

[boatman]

I think this is a fair analogy-Women should not dress provocatively because it might encourage a rapist or women should not walk around at night. Both statements are essentially wrong as women have a perfect right to do both and it is for society to reduce any hazards that might arise. Then there is the suggestion that one should hide knives etc in packs and not to wear a sheath knife, although with the law as it is at the moment both can be perfectly legal, because of misinterpretation of your motives and legality by some members of the public and some policepersons.

In both cases the problem is other people and while there are campaigns to "take back the night" and similar there are none to assert our simple rights that innocent actions should incur no penalty. The axe demo was rubbished but isn't that rubbishing a symptom of how deep we have sunk into a timid society constantly afraid of the law? I don't think the axe demo would be a goer but certainly we should not skulk with our kit as though we were criminals.