Trains and Knives / Axes. BTP Official Stance

[Tony]

Carry the documentation that Woodcraft send you, it will have the dates and course details proving that you're carrying your kit for a legitimate reason. If there's not enough info then contact them and ask for it, John and Karen will be more than happy to help you out with this.

Pack the kit as you've described, also take the communications that you've had with the BTP (James H Millar - Justice Directorate)

Then don't worry about it at all, even though there are some over zealous police they are mostly very reasonable people, you will have documentation showing that you've a good reason to karry your kit, you will show that you have complied with the legal needs and that you contacted them in the first instance thus showing that you're upfront and honest about it.

I really don't think that you will have any issues at all, just a fabulous experience with Woodcraft

 

[mace242]

Carry the documentation that Woodcraft send you, it will have the dates and course details proving that you're carrying your kit for a legitimate reason. If there's not enough info then contact them and ask for it, John and Karen will be more than happy to help you out with this.

Pack the kit as you've described, also take the communications that you've had with the BTP (James H Millar - Justice Directorate)

Then don't worry about it at all, even though there are some over zealous police they are mostly very reasonable people, you will have documentation showing that you've a good reason to karry your kit, you will show that you have complied with the legal needs and that you contacted them in the first instance thus showing that you're upfront and honest about it.

I really don't think that you will have any issues at all, just a fabulous experience with Woodcraft

Thanks Tony. That's the conclusion I've come to. I've bee to Woodcraft before and am really looking forward to it. They are great.

Thanks for the excellent site too.

:You_Rock_

 

[mace242]

Think that this has dried as a source of information. Asking for more details got this response:

"Unfortunately we are unable to provide any further assistance or guidance in terms of this issue. If you require any further legal advice and clarification you may wish to consult a solicitor independently."

Okaaay. Thanks then....:sulkoff:

 

[TheGreenMan]

Think that this has dried as a source of information. Asking for more details got this response:

"Unfortunately we are unable to provide any further assistance or guidance in terms of this issue. If you require any further legal advice and clarification you may wish to consult a solicitor independently."

Okaaay. Thanks then....:sulkoff:

It’s worth considering that he may be mindful that his words could be used as evidence in your defence in court, should you be arrested. The quoted words below from Mr Millar's email reply seem to substantiate this speculation.

I’ve read on several occasions, and on various forums, the opinion that official advice is pretty much limited to quoting of existing legislation, which in places is somewhat vague, and it’s vague for the reason of not wanting to provide a potential defendant with a ready-made defence in law, and thus possibly subverting the actions of an arresting officer and any process of law that may follow:

‘…It would be wrong however given the manner in which these particular defences operate for the police service to intimate to a member of the public that he or she may possess an offensive weapon on the basis that its possession appears both legitimate and reasonable and thus likely to be covered by one or more of these statutory defences…’ – James H Millar

This all seems fairly reasonable to me.

He has been helpful enough to provide you with several examples of case law, that clarify the situation a little, and he has provided you with the information that if you are arrested and charged, then you may in some circumstances have a defence available to you, if you have been the victim of a crime and you have used a tool as an offensive weapon.

To my mind, so long as you don’t get involved in any situation that might lead to you taking part in a brawl, use any of the tools to assault anyone or use them to defend yourself if you are being assaulted, actually threaten anyone with the tools, or threaten to use the tools in your possession to assault anyone, then it should be all be OK. If you avoid those situations then I don’t see how any of the tools you have mentioned that will be in your possession, and under the circumstances you have described, could be considered as offensive weapons.

If you do happen to encounter a metal detector, then I’d follow dommyracer’s advice and just explain the circumstances to an officer before you go through the machine.

I’d be more concerned about not injuring myself or anyone else with the tools while on the axe course, rather than being arrested for possession of an offensive weapon.

Stay safe, and enjoy.

Kind regards,
Paul

 

[mace242]

It’s worth considering that he may be mindful that his words could be used as evidence in your defence in court, should you be arrested. The quoted words below from Mr Millar's email reply seem to substantiate this speculation.

I’ve read on several occasions, and on various forums, the opinion that official advice is pretty much limited to quoting of existing legislation, which in places is somewhat vague, and it’s vague for the reason of not wanting to provide a potential defendant with a ready-made defence in law, and thus possibly subverting the actions of an arresting officer and any process of law that may follow:

‘…It would be wrong however given the manner in which these particular defences operate for the police service to intimate to a member of the public that he or she may possess an offensive weapon on the basis that its possession appears both legitimate and reasonable and thus likely to be covered by one or more of these statutory defences…’ – James H Millar

This all seems fairly reasonable to me.

He has been helpful enough to provide you with several examples of case law, that clarify the situation a little, and he has provided you with the information that if you are arrested and charged, then you may in some circumstances have a defence available to you, if you have been the victim of a crime and you have used a tool as an offensive weapon.

To my mind, so long as you don’t get involved in any situation that might lead to you taking part in a brawl, use any of the tools to assault anyone or use them to defend yourself if you are being assaulted, actually threaten anyone with the tools, or threaten to use the tools in your possession to assault anyone, then it should be all be OK. If you avoid those situations then I don’t see how any of the tools you have mentioned that will be in your possession, and under the circumstances you have described, could be considered as offensive weapons.

If you do happen to encounter a metal detector, then I’d follow dommyracer’s advice and just explain the circumstances to an officer before you go through the machine.

I’d be more concerned about not injuring myself or anyone else with the tools while on the axe course, rather than being arrested for possession of an offensive weapon.

Stay safe, and enjoy.

Kind regards,
Paul

Quoted the whole thing again Paul as I totally agree. I'm really looking forward to the course and the very minor concerns about this are not really that important to me and not a huge worry. I may have come across as a bit of a worrier but this was more started my very minor concerns and a whole load of curiosity.

I'm going on the course as I want to get the beginnings of the care of axes and safety in axe use and this is far more of a concern to me, as was knife use when I started. The amount of times up until I knew better that I risked serious injury

None of this has stopped me looking forward to it, and until I see the police showing off a clipper on the news I'll figure any of us that have been stopped have been let off.

I'll be taking all the suggested stuff with me and not worry at all - after all I'll have my usual travelling chocolate limes with me and I'll use them as bribes... (though possibly others don't like them as much as me so how good that'll be I'm not sure)

Course is only 6 weeks away.... Can't wait....

Tim

 

[TheGreenMan]

...after all I'll have my usual travelling chocolate limes with me and I'll use them as bribes... (though possibly others don't like them as much as me so how good that'll be I'm not sure)...

Yeah, chocolate and lime isn't an obvious combination, but it does work somehow, though you could always have some barley sugar as a back-up

Cheers Tim,
Paul.