Carrying an Axe/Knife and the Law

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May 23, 2012
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Highlands
I'm up near the Cairngorms
I have a Gränsfors small forest axe, timber wolf Blazzin & Skinner

I've seen guys in full tree cams & welly boots & allsorts in local Tes*o supermarket
& it appears normal
If I'm hiking for a week, I need my hardwear !!!! Firewood, camp jobs, lunch, etc ......

Maybe attitudes are different in the Highlands ???
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
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Lots of people wander round here with lock knives or sheath knives on their belts...even in the Co-op or the pub. Its a farming area though and knives are needed all the time.
Now beet knives are scary looking tools!
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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No, they were not unarmed, they simply had the tools of their labours to hand....that became the pole arms, the pikes, etc., that were effective enough to stave off and slaughter armed, mounted knights......

........Society's structure, whether it be band, tribe, clan or kingdom, is a different thing entirely. Armed raiders caused grief for a short period, then society, in it's 'galgael' terms simply settles down. Mind too, the 'armed foreign raiders' didn't get most of our lands here. The Picts & Scots beat them back, then beat back their descendants and Northumbrian mixed armies too.........

......If the farmers can't farm in peace, everybody dies.....


On point one: They had farming tools which were developed into weapons. fair enough. But they didn't have armor and those "farming tools turned weapons" were NEVER as effective as those of the heavily armed elite. They won a few battles but basicly they never "slaughtered" armed knights. They were and remained serfs serving those knights Suntil the end of the dark ages. Perhaps the picts and the Scots did beat back others but so what? They were still Scot and/or Pict elite ruling there own serfs. Not really any different.

On point two: Armed foreign raiders didn't get you land. Really? The Normans didn't conguer those there before them? And if we're talking about the Vikings instead, again. So What? They didn't raid to gat the land. They raided to get fod, treasure, and plunder. They did so quite successfully.

As to the comment that raids only lasted a short time and then died down. Well what's a short time? We are after all only talking about the dark ages. Not the entire course of history.

Regarding the comment that if the farmers weren't allowed to farm in peace, everybody died. Agreed. Death was the norm at the time. You already admitted as much with your earlier comment that most deaths at the time were caused by malnutrition and disease. I'm agreeing with you. I'm only pointing out just what caused the malnutrition and disease in turn.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
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On point one: They had farming tools which were developed into weapons. fair enough. But they didn't have armor and those "farming tools turned weapons" were NEVER as effective as those of the heavily armed elite. They won a few battles but basicly they never "slaughtered" armed knights. They were and remained serfs serving those knights Suntil the end of the dark ages. Perhaps the picts and the Scots did beat back others but so what? They were still Scot and/or Pict elite ruling there own serfs. Not really any different.

On point two: Armed foreign raiders didn't get you land. Really? The Normans didn't conguer those there before them? And if we're talking about the Vikings instead, again. So What? They didn't raid to gat the land. They raided to get fod, treasure, and plunder. They did so quite successfully.

As to the comment that raids only lasted a short time and then died down. Well what's a short time? We are after all only talking about the dark ages. Not the entire course of history.

Regarding the comment that if the farmers weren't allowed to farm in peace, everybody died. Agreed. Death was the norm at the time. You already admitted as much with your earlier comment that most deaths at the time were caused by malnutrition and disease. I'm agreeing with you. I'm only pointing out just what caused the malnutrition and disease in turn.

Thanks for the history lesson.

Go and do research into the Battle of Agincourt, turns out it was not the arrows that killed the 'armed knights' it was the archers killing them at close quarters with things like a knife.
 

Toddy

Mod
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Jan 21, 2005
38,977
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Santaman the pole armed shiltron slaughtered armed knights.....the shilton and the Saxon shieldwall....the formations of the Flemish....they all were very, very good defence against a supposedly better armed superior force.
Do a search for shiltron, sheltron, shield wall and the list of battles won is more than impressive.

Pole arms are the 'flourish' of the farming implements attached to a long stick, and farmers by the very nature of their trade are more than familiar with their tools.

I cannot help but know this stuff, my degree profile is Archaeological Science, but in Scottish Universities one is expected to take a wide based approach, I widened mine by Geography and Scottish History. I'm not going to start quoting medieval English and Scots at you. Away and do some reading, there are ample pointers in the thread. Dark Ages has already been explained; the lights were still lit, just the writing wasn't in Latin or Greek. It's simply a catchy title from those early antiquarians who expected Latin and Greek to have all the answers.

"Death was the norm" :rolleyes: it's still normal, everyone born dies, it's just that in the West we're inclined to better medicine and dentistry these days.
Even the Viking stopped raiding to get the harvest in (see earlier post re Somerled) it was a crucial point in the year. Our seasonality means that there was one shot at it.

This thread was opened to ask advice on carrying sharps in Scotland, on public transport, now.
I have three times brought the thread back in line; it would be appreciated if the present could be the focus of our discussion as the thread tails off.

cheers,
M

p.s,. Richard is right; once they were confident in their drilling the only thing that took down the pole arms were archers. That's why Keith's Scottish cavalry took out the archers at Bannockburn.

M
 
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Llwyd

Forager
Jan 6, 2013
243
2
Eastern Canada
My apologies for ever mentioning the term "Dark Ages". I used it to illustrate how society has become less violent since the introduction of gunpowder and in spite of that the media tries to convince us that we live in a dangerous time. A dangerous world where every time a guy takes the train to go camping with his axe a dozen small children inevitably die in a massacre somewhere.

I sure would like to talk more about dark age stuff though.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Santaman the pole armed shiltron slaughtered armed knights.....the shilton and the Saxon shieldwall....the formations of the Flemish....they all were very, very good defence against a supposedly better armed superior force.
Do a search for shiltron, sheltron, shield wall and the list of battles won is more than impressive.

Pole arms are the 'flourish' of the farming implements attached to a long stick, and farmers by the very nature of their trade are more than familiar with their tools.

I cannot help but know this stuff, my degree profile is Archaeological Science, but in Scottish Universities one is expected to take a wide based approach, I widened mine by Geography and Scottish History. I'm not going to start quoting medieval English and Scots at you. Away and do some reading, there are ample pointers in the thread. Dark Ages has already been explained; the lights were still lit, just the writing wasn't in Latin or Greek. It's simply a catchy title from those early antiquarians who expected Latin and Greek to have all the answers.

"Death was the norm" :rolleyes: it's still normal, everyone born dies, it's just that in the West we're inclined to better medicine and dentistry these days.
Even the Viking stopped raiding to get the harvest in (see earlier post re Somerled) it was a crucial point in the year. Our seasonality means that there was one shot at it.

This thread was opened to ask advice on carrying sharps in Scotland, on public transport, now.
I have three times brought the thread back in line; it would be appreciated if the present could be the focus of our discussion as the thread tails off.

cheers,
M

p.s,. Richard is right; once they were confident in their drilling the only thing that took down the pole arms were archers. That's why Keith's Scottish cavalry took out the archers at Bannockburn.

M

Again. Fantasy. A few battles is hardly a good example. Interesting point about the archers though. Another is that the bow and arrow have killed more men than all other weapons combined.
 
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Toddy

Mod
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Jan 21, 2005
38,977
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S. Lanarkshire
Start a thread :D

To my certain knowledge there are at least eight Scottish Archaeologist, and fourteen English and Welsh ones on the forum. There are five active Living Historians, and, that I know of, over a dozen craftsmen whose work covers that period amongst others.

Whether they'll join in or not, I don't know. They come here to talk about bushcraft, they use other sites for the history interests.


Laurentius, I love the flute/whistle anecdotes :D

Too many others to name easily, but knives are an issue in the Central belt....not least because of the aforementioned msp's cause celebre :rolleyes:, but also because of the sheer scale of the carnage of injuries and deaths. Rik-uk's post is the probably the most realistic one in the circumstances.
That's not to say that we don't carry and use knives, we do, but we are becoming incredibly careful about where and when.
No getting away from it; it's a right royal pain for folks who use them as tools, but for most people in the area (sorry BR, but this is the truth in this very urbanised bit of the world ) carrying one is a totally unnecessary complication; they simply don't see why we want to.

I am concerned about the response that brambles gave; and I am seriously considering dropping into Uddingston police station and asking some questions. If I'm foraging lin the local woods for mushrooms, bark, etc., I use a knife......I really, really, don't want to have to explain to HWMBLT, sons 1 & 2 and my 90 year old Uncle why I got lifted by the polis :rolleyes: :eek:

cheers,
M
 
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mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
What examples would you like? Concerning what part of the debate?

To counter the argument that you explained a few examples do not reinforce. In my experience when someone presents you with evidence in order to make an effective counter argument you must also present evidence that goes beyond mere opinion.

I.e.

Show me the money.
 

Kepis

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 17, 2005
6,705
2,152
Sussex
This thread was opened to ask advice on carrying sharps in Scotland, on public transport, now.
I have three times brought the thread back in line; it would be appreciated if the present could be the focus of our discussion as the thread tails off.

cheers,
M

This is about the only time ive ever wished there was one of those horrible "Thank You" buttons on here:)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
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Florida
To counter the argument that you explained a few examples do not reinforce. In my experience when someone presents you with evidence in order to make an effective counter argument you must also present evidence that goes beyond mere opinion.

I.e.

Show me the money.

Perhaps poor wording on my part. I said a few battles weren'y "good" examples? I should have said that while there were a few examples they didn't really mean that they were the normal course of events. The simple logic that superior forces with superior arms and experience will, and did, NORMALLY win any battle. I freely grant that as Mary points out there were exceptions. BUT! It's sheer fantasy to believe that they were anything more than EXCEPTIONS. Her qualifications as an archeologist aside, the opposite is indeed what's still being taught incourses on The History of Western Civilization.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,715
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Mercia
No getting away from it; it's a right royal pain for folks who use them as tools, but for most people in the area (sorry BR, but this is the truth in this very urbanised bit of the world ) carrying one is a totally unnecessary complication; they simply don't see why we want to.

M

Meh I'm quite happy that urban Scots don't carry knives :) So long as they leave us fenlanders alone to do as we like. Heck no-one bats an eyelid at people carrying guns openly round here...and the last copper I saw was three years ago. There were three guys with these beasts tucked into their belts in the chippie the other day

H512.jpg


What are they supposed to do with them when they nip off for their chips? Leave them in a field to rust?
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
Perhaps poor wording on my part. I said a few battles weren'y "good" examples? I should have said that while there were a few examples they didn't really mean that they were the normal course of events. The simple logic that superior forces with superior arms and experience will, and did, NORMALLY win any battle. I freely grant that as Mary points out there were exceptions. BUT! It's sheer fantasy to believe that they were anything more than EXCEPTIONS. Her qualifications as an archeologist aside, the opposite is indeed what's still being taught incourses on The History of Western Civilization.

From my understanding all you need to get yourself is a good hill and make sure you stay on top of it...
 

Toddy

Mod
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Jan 21, 2005
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British Red, in other areas in Scotland no one would bat an eyelid at folks carrying tools like that, but this is just about the most urbanised society in western Europe, try carrying that into a chippie here and the helicopters would be up :rolleyes:

Santaman, define battle; when does a raiding party skirmish become a battle ?

M
 
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mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
'irony'
'sarcasm'

Look them up, please.
[edit] this was in response to the comments on waco and 'rightful' arms

This is a thread on a UK forum that started talking about carrying woodcrafting tools and the likelyhood for misunderstandings.

Any discussion about firearms or laws in other countries is utterly out of place, unhelpful and possibly even straightforward trolling.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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Pre "modern warfare" having the high ground was a significant tactical advantage that could easily even out unequal forces.

TBH it still is a factor. But superior forces is a relative term in that case. Meaning, just how vastly superior? And in what way? Superior aircraft in our age (other weaponry or even armor in earlier ages) can make up for high ground to an extent.
 
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