Carrying an Axe/Knife and the Law

[Switch]

Usually when going away I'd be going in a car although the next trip will begin with a train. I was curious as to the law concerning walking through a city train station with an axe and knife in my bag so spoke to The Procurator Fiscal (CPS) and the Police. The answer from one of the Deputes (prosecuting lawyers here) was that there is no legal provision to allow you to do carry these regardless of their intended use. Their advice was simply make sure it's not easily accessible, hope you don't get stopped and if you do declare it's presence and intended use immediately. I don't know how it is elsewhere in the UK regarding the law. The worrying aspect is that whilst you could try to argue your way out of it is certainly against the law to carry these things in a public space regardless of their intended use. It may not proceed due to being deemed to not be in the public interest to prosecute however that would really depend on who was reviewing the particular case.

Is this the same in the rest of the UK and has anyone run into any problems with carrying axes/knives in their packs?

Thanks.

 

[Shewie]

Have a read through the stickies at the top of the Edged Tools forum, lots of good info about travelling with and the laws concerning sharps ..

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12

 

[British Red]

The worrying aspect is that whilst you could try to argue your way out of it is certainly against the law to carry these things in a public space regardless of their intended use. It may not proceed due to being deemed to not be in the public interest to prosecute however that would really depend on who was reviewing the particular case.

Is this the same in the rest of the UK and has anyone run into any problems with carrying axes/knives in their packs?

Thanks.

It most certainly is not against United Kingdom law if you have a good reason to have them with you. As to whether there are local laws in Scotland that change that, I cannot say, but as regards UK law, it is not illegal with a reason to carry.

 

[Laurentius]

The buffet must be completely illegal!

 

[Kepis]

and if they try to caution you for carrying the tools - refuse to accept it, in a nice non confrontational way of course.

 

[Jared]

Be discrete about it, should be fine. Used to carry a 30"+ handled axe around in a surplus kit bag*, they're just about tall enough to hide it.

Make sure you can use an axe wherever your heading too. Because cutting down someone else's property without permission might land you in more trouble, and kind of invalidate a "good reason" imo.


* One of these: http://www.endicotts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=92&products_id=2061

 

[Switch]

Have a read through the stickies at the top of the Edged Tools forum, lots of good info about travelling with and the laws concerning sharps ..

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12

I should have searched there first. Nothing worse than re-opening a well covered debate.

What promted this was that there was recently a new set of legal guidelines issued to prosecuting Deputes in Scotland regarding knives etc. It defines having a knife in the following situations as a crime "These situations include possessing a knife on licensed premises, when gang involvement is suspected, at a ``hot spot'' for violence, on public transport, or at a bus or train station." It was on the back of the new guidelines that I spoke to the Procurator Fiscal about it who also confirmed this. For those people in Scotland it is certainly worth noting that there has been a recent change to the way these cases are to be dealt with. It may well just be Scotland that this applies to though.

 

[Toddy]

There's no way to discuss this in central Scotland without bringing in Politics
Basically it's the baby of one of the local Lanarkshire msp's who, because the labour party suffered huge swinging defeats, was suddenly elevated to great heights
His claim to fame ? His cause celebre ?
"Carry a knife, go to jail".
I jest you not

It's totally unworkable, it's total nonsense, it is inflammatory and it causes endless confusion.

It is not against the law to carry a knife, in an appropriate place or manner.

Define appropriate place........well not schools, pubs, clubs, etc., and in many instance not on public transport. It's up to the individual provider to decide whether they will permit someone to carry, even within luggage.

Best advice. Do not carry in any of the place where they are most definitely 'not' permitted. Be incredibly discreet everywhere else. Pack at the bottom of a pack, and wrapped in something else, if necessary. They must not be immediately accessible, i.e. not for attack or defence.
If approached by police or security and asked, simply quietly explain what you're doing, where you are going and the measures you have taken to keep them safe.
If you are cautioned, do not accept it. It might cause you hassle in the present, but accepting it will be a permanent record. If you refuse then the system (the procurator fiscal basically) has to assess the matter, and they are inclined to be rather practical people about things like this. Do nto get shirty with the police, simply explain why you cannot accept the caution, and ask them what needs to be done now.
If you are both reasonable and rational, it will count in your favour. Angry folks with knives get everyone upset and annoyed.

Away and ask on British Blades and see what response they give there; usually they're more up to date with the actual iota of the details.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Switch]

Make sure you can use an axe wherever your heading too. Because cutting down someone else's property without permission might land you in more trouble, and kind of invalidate a "good reason" imo.


* One of these: http://www.endicotts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=92&products_id=2061

I've never cut anything down, as you're saying it's just not worth the risk. There's always plenty of wood on the ground as a result of past storm damage in the area I'll be heading to. The problem is simply the size of some of the pieces lying about. I'd prefer my lumber bow saw but it's not going to be practical to carry this time unfortunately.

 

[Llwyd]

The law in any country is always subject to interpretation and is often interpreted by the highest bidder. Usually the highest bidder is the crown prosecutor. The internet told me it was OK will never work in court and if you do get charged, the process is almost always the punishment. If it costs you a few thousand pounds to get clear of it and found innocent, that cost is often more of a deterrent than actually being found guilty of something in the first place. Become well informed before you carry anything.

That said I carried an axe in my backpack and a Grohmann knife on my belt all over England and Scotland through towns, cities and the country on trains and and in pubs with no issues. Even while chatting up some Glasgow Police officers. No one ever suspects the Canadian... As with things over here, the police will leave you alone but Mr.Do-good will call them and make up a complaint and blow things out of proportion.

I did my college field placement with the national police (RCMP) and one day the radio goes off and we answer the call about a crazy guy on the side of the highway with a rifle threatening motorists. Our car was the first to respond to a guy with a fishing rod.

Always remember that as stupid as the average person is, half again are dumber than that.

 

[Switch]

Best advice. Do not carry in any of the place where they are most definitely 'not' permitted. Be incredibly discreet everywhere else.

Cheers.

This essentially echoes what they were saying as well. I'll opt for just leaving the axe this time due to stations and public transport. I just didn't like the look on the Fiscal's face as she tried to explain that even with all precautions taken there's still no provision in the current guidelines to allow it. Quite sad that the law is taking this turn.

 

[Toddy]

The law's caught between commonsense use by the majority and the numpties in towns throughout the central belt who get blitzed and tooled up and fill ER waiting rooms and mortuaries with their behaviour

We might not have a firearms problem in Scotland, but there is good reason to believe that we do have a knife crime problem, even if the statistics do show a year on year reduction.

Stay safe.

cheers,
M

 

[British Red]

Of course the sad thing is, those intent on violence are already ignoring the law - more laws wont change that

 

[Toddy]

No disagreement there.
Thing is though, that because there is a 'law' or at least police guidance about the issue, it means that they can legitimately stop youths/young men (and it is generally youths/young men attacking other youths/young men) and ask if they are carrying. They take it from there.
Mostly the problems it causes are for others of similar age who are genuinely not up to no good bushcrafters, campers, fishermen, workmen, etc.,

There are political conflicts about how best to deal with the issues and it is anything but clear cut for the police or the public.
It is frankly a right royal pain the situpon.

M

 

[Laurentius]

"These situations include possessing a knife on licensed premises, "

So what happens when you sit down to a meal and cut your steak up, have you broken the law? The law was never intended to be taken that literally, and such commonplaces are never likely to be included in the advice given, simply because of the context of the question, and the context of the standard reply which is only a standard reply and cannot cover all eventualities, because such obscure eventualities don't even come into the mind of the individual you asked. The procurator fiscal gave a rote answer, one his job obliges him to do, but not necessarily the correct one. It is like asking the lifeguard at a swimming pool, if you can drown in that water. Yes you can, of course you can, but if you were to ask instead "will you drown" the reply is "most likely not" That's the sociology lesson over for today.

 

[Toddy]

Ah, but see, there's the devil in the detail. The steak knife used to cut up dinner is a very different implement from the knife (even if it's the same knife!) used to injure someone.
That's what the police need to be allowed to deal with.
No straightforward or easy answers; because to say either no knives or to allow all knives freely are both going to cause problems.

The only saving grace seems to be that the real number of assaults using blades is falling.

My sons tell me they're hoping that there's an amnesty when I croak it, because otherwise they're going to struggle to deal with my shinies collection.
I know they're just tools, and I teach that they are simply tools, but that's not always the public perception of them. Indeed more and more that's the exception, especially among youngsters.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[British Red]

The steak knife used to cut up dinner is a very different implement from the knife (even if it's the same knife!) used to injure someone.
That's what the police need to be allowed to deal with.

Would it were that simple. Most knife injury is committed with kitchen knives or domestic cutlery - not expensive bushcraft knives - according to parliamentery evidence at least

Hospital data analysed by the Trauma Audit Research Network indicates that the type of knife used to injure most frequently is the kitchen knife

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/112/11206.htm

That steak knife is the most likely weapon - rather than the least likely.

Interestingly the following evidence was also presented

a very small proportion" of those seen at the Royal London Hospital are "innocent people walking down the street who are jumped on or stabbed" and only "a very small incidents of domestic violence crime lead to knife crime": they mainly related to "gang culture".

This is the problem with all these laws. The crimes are, in the main, perpetrated by criminal gangs - who are hell bent on both violence and ignoring law. They will ignore any new laws passed as well.

Those incovenienced by laws - be they kinfe, gun, motor car or whatever are the law abiding - those who had no intention of committing an act of violence in the first place - an act that is, and always has been, illegal.

<sigh>

Its a sad world where "being seen to do something" - however ineffective - is a better election strategy than actually tackling the problem.

Red

 

[Kepis]

I'd prefer my lumber bow saw but it's not going to be practical to carry this time unfortunately.

Why not just take a saw blade and make a buck or bow saw when you to where you are going?, that way you can leave the axe at home and in the unlikely event you are stopped, a knife and saw may not been construed as badly as an axe and knife possibly would, even though there is nothing wrong with it, and when asked why you have it, erm, it's to cut firewood officer.

 

[Toddy]

I thought that's what I said about the steak knife ?

Either way, I don't disagree, simply that they have to accept that folks need to eat dinner too.

On the whole, 'gangs' as in any ad hoc organised grouping, don't seem to be the biggest issue; it's still the old 'hasty use of a bread knife', and, the deliberate carrying of a knife, any knife, 'just in case'..........and then, because it is readily available, it gets used.
That's what the police are trying to stop, and the politicians are struggling to find someway to give them authority and yet allow ordinary folks to just get on with their lives. Well, most politicians


However, to get back to the OP, I think that common sense pays off in this situation.
The Procurator Fiscal's office gave the best advice that they could, because the situation is incredibly fluid. They have no way of knowing if there's going to be trouble while you are travelling, no idea if the area you are from or going to is having social issues that the police are trying to contain by either amnesty or search; or whether the railway/bus/ferry company you are going to use will permit you to carry knife and axe, or not.

Me ? I'd take the saw, but I'd break it down and wrap the blade and store it seperately in my pack. That said, I'm a little middle aged lady, police don't generally consider me a potential problem. Population dynamics and social conditioning there I'm afraid

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Tristar777]

Ok. Again this subject has been brought up and we moan about the laws and those who have to uphold the laws. etc may I ask for comments on how to solve the problem then? What is the answer to preventing the use/abuse of tools or knives while still allowing there proper use by those who are using them correctly? We spend all this time discussing the problems but not the answer to the problem.