Disability and behavior of members

Mikey P

Full Member
Nov 22, 2003
2,257
12
53
Glasgow, Scotland
Mikey P, the Scots generally meet up in ones and twos and then every so often someone organises a bigger get together.

There's *always* space for folks to slope off and get out of the hubbub.

It's the same at the Moot, there's an entire estate as well as the biggest sand dunes in Europe to wander / camp / chill out. You're only as close to folks as you chose to be.

Lindsey herself said that she noticed the issues she mentioned at the Moot and at the other Meet. Not one of the Mods or any other person noticed a problem, because I can assure you had we done so it would have been dealt with at the time.

I'm glad Lindsey did bring it up though, it gives us all a chance to have a long think about our actions.

cheers,
Toddy

Thanks for the explanation but it's still not for me! Although I'm quite forthright and opinionated, I value the smaller group scenario too much for a Moot...maybe one day.... :D Anyway, perhaps we'll meet up for a forage one day soon? We move to Glasgow (Bishopbriggs area) on 20th Aug and I probably need to tap you for some recipes and certainly some secret sloe bush locations - gin is awaiting! :naughty:

I know the Mods would have done something about issues at the time if they'd known but I guess it's something that Lindsey perhaps didn't feel comfortable about raising - possibly concerned at other people's hostile reactions? - and waited until she'd really had a chance to think about it. Unfortunately, in my experience, simple misunderstandings can become confrontational very quickly and I guess that's the last thing anyone wanted to happen.

Again, none of my comments imply any criticism of Tony, Mary, other Mods and volunteers because I know you would do everything in your power to make things enjoyable for all. I want to be absolutely clear on that. :grouphug:
 
You missed one Cobweb.

The unwelcome one!
<SNIP>
Some people find hugging warm and expressive. Others find it unwanted, unpleasant and invasive. I include myself on that list.

I agree, Red. I hate being lunged at by people I don't want to hug. When in a large-ish group, I think it gets boring when you feel obliged to hug everyone there.

I have some very good mates whom I will hug occasionally, but I don't want to hug them each and every time I see them.

I have one friend who insists on kissing me every time I see her, both at greeting and parting, and when I told her I didn't want to, she sulked like a child and asked what was wrong with me. I told her I just wasn't a huggy-kissy kind of person, and she told me I was a miserable cow and walked away :(
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
And yet I would bet she would be the first to call "foul" if some bloke was pawing at her in the workplace!

I wonder how it is that some people think its okay for them to paw at others but resent it when people they don't want to insist on touching them?

Unwanted physical contact is exactly the same no matter who is carrying it out. To those who like to hug and kiss relative starngers, I would like you to imagine how you would feel if someone insisted on touching your body in ways you found inappropriate.

Food for thought.

Thanks for the confirmation I'm not alone in this Womble ;)

Red
 

sapper1

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 3, 2008
2,572
1
swansea
My eldest son cannot stand to be touched by anyone,if he was hugged by a stranger then it would be classed as physical assault because of the reaction it would cause.
My youngest however loves physical contact.It's very difficult to know who likes it and who doesn't.But if you have been told not to do it because it is unwanted then you must accept the outcome of carrying on,which in the case of my eldest will be a swift kick in the shins and a gouging of whatever flesh is available.Then you can explain to me why you handled my son in an inappropriate manner.You may not think a hug is inappropriate but to someone who doesn't like it ,it is.Much the same as putting your arm around your wife/husband is okay but could be very unwanted by someone elses wife/husband.Perhaps it would be better to ask before engaging in physical contact with someone.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
.Perhaps it would be better to ask before engaging in physical contact with someone.

Spot on,

Some random stranger who insists on touching me and rubbing themselves against my chest is no more appropriate than the office lech touching a random females chest. Unless its wanted, its creepy and wrong!

Red
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
I don't know what kind of hug you've been getting BR but trust me on this, it's the wrong kind if a stranger has been trying to rub herself all over you like that. It's not a leching thing at all :eek:

cheers,
Toddy
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
They are all the worng kind to me Toddy - I just don't want that kind of body contact at all.

I find it deeply disturbing and wholly unwanted.

Now I'm sure thats never your intention - heck its not like we've ever met - but unwanted touching of someones person is just that - unwanted and uwarranted touching of another persons body. To me (and thankfully Womble tells me I'm not alone) its deeply unpleasant.

Perhaps the person in the office who touches the temps leg or arm or whatever doesn't mean it as inappropriate either. But I'm sure we can all agree that they shouldn't do it. Well, same applies here for some of us

Red
 

Stingray

Full Member
Feb 25, 2009
232
1
Kent
Okay, several issues need clarifying here.

Firstly, assault is never acceptable.
Secondly, BcUK is not responsible for the behaviour of individuals.

The incident with the axe haft happened at a meet in the Midlands, not at the Moot, and it was not only BcUK members who were present.

However, as this is probably among the bigger forums around it's probably best that this sensitive issue is thrashed out here so it reaches as wide an audience as possible. It would be appreciated though if the facts around claims such as this one were kept clear,

**Shouting at someone who persistantly interrupts, sorry, unless we are aware that someone 'has' a problem then that's kind of to be expected as frustration levels rise when the normal socially acceptable routes have been exhausted. Must try harder is I suspect the wasy for all of us.

**Aspberger's syndrome is not an excuse, it's a reason.
Those diagnosed with the condition are generally very intelligent, they too need to learn, not just everyone else.

I think we can agree that courtesy is the acceptable route to dealing with both these issues. Yes ?

**Hazing and bullying.
Fun's fun but the hell with nonsense is the local phrase.
Assault is assault and is 'never' acceptable.

However, many of the members are, or have been, physical people; the services imbue what used to be called a rough cameraderie, and in some instances it continues in civvy street, but it's also seen in groups of young men. It is part of life.
It is for many normal behaviour. Indeed in many instances it is inclusive behaviour, not intended as bullying or excluding someone from a group.

Do we stop 'all' contact ?? I don't think that's the best route to be honest.

The hug I gave to the young man in question was not intended as assault, could even it be misconstrued ?? :dunno:

Society is complex, we learn the rules, and the changing social situations, all our lives.
Personally I dislike seeing people labelled. I suspect all too many of us recognise facets of ourselves in the descriptions of those considered to be wired differently.
Instead of perceiving them as something removed from mainstream society might it not be better to accept them as being as much individuals as the rest of us ? The corollary is that they have to accept that life is not fair, that not everyone will care to understand their condition, and they too have to make an effort to learn to deal with that while everyone learns a little more tolerance.
Frustration at another's behaviour goes two ways. Sometimes it's easier just to walk away for a bit.

How the hang did people manage in the past ? because none of this is new.

I know the thread has given me food for thought, and my last response is probably not going to be construed as terribly politically correct or very tolerant, but it is firmly grounded in real life.
I like people, I hate seeing someone marginalised or victimised, and if I'm struggling with this, I know it's worse for other folks.

In summation.
Everyone has a right to expect not to be assaulted or bullied.
Everyone has a right to courtesy, and respect for the individual.
If an issue bothers you, speak up. If no one complains, nothing changes.

cheers,
Toddy


Excellent.I think that covers everything.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
Oh there are definitely people who give the "Do Not Touch" vibe. Those I become very restrained around, because I know I am tactile. I deal very well with them, but I do so by being rather formal.
I have no problems on crowded buses or undergrounds or firesides, there's always room for one more kind of attitude.

There's a huge divide here; y'see I do not in any way consider the kind of hug we're talking about as a sexual thing. It's a friendly thing, like an extra warm smile.

Frankly to threaten someone with a slapped face though is I think an escalation of antagonism I could not easily step past.
That said, if body language said no, or the person asked me not to touch, then I wouldn't ever have gotten to that stage *anyway*.

I freely admit I'd be cut to the quick if my sons did not hug me or told me off for doing so. My uncle is nearly 90 and I still cuddle him, in fact he'd be cut to the quick if I didn't too.

Andyre you are special :D You're good, easy company, and fun to be around.:approve:

Off to find Son2. All this stuff is making *me* want a cuddle. :rolleyes: The only problem is that since they grew taller than I am the boys are inclined to pick me up when they hug :eek:

cheers,
Toddy
 

Draven

Native
Jul 8, 2006
1,530
6
35
Scotland
Toddy, I think hugging might, to an extent, be somewhat of a Scottish thing - I was never really much of a hugger until I got here when I didn't have much of a choice but to get used to it :p I tend not to now, purely because I'm a poor judge of its appropriateness. Still a few people I hug upon seeing, though often a one armed hug. I wouldn't describe it as an "uncomfortable" one armed hug, though not necessarily particularly loving; just a greeting, I guess..

Not to say it's not common elsewhere, it just seems to be more common and more casual here, rather than people thinking that it means something untoward.

Pete
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
Frankly to threaten someone with a slapped face though is I think an escalation of antagonism I could not easily step past.
That said, if body language said no, or the person asked me not to touch, then I wouldn't ever have gotten to that stage *anyway*.

In my book,when someone has been asked to stop, told to stop and informed in no uncertain terms that they'd better bloody stop, then the next step is a slap. The same way that I would expect a woman to respond to a mans unwanted physical contact.


Its my body and I'll choose who touches it. I frankly don't care if a person feels they have some sort of "right" to paw me when I have told them not to. They don't. Fortunately I have never needed to go past a warning but I just don't understand when this started being acceptable. It wasn't inmy parents or grand parents day. Perhaps I'm old fashioned? I don't know, but I fail to see why I should be pawed again and again against my express wishes??


Red
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
In my book,when someone has been asked to stop, told to stop and informed in no uncertain terms that they'd better bloody stop, then the next step is a slap. The same way that I would expect a woman to respond to a mans unwanted physical contact.


Its my body and I'll choose who touches it. I frankly don't care if a person feels they have some sort of "right" to paw me when I have told them not to. They don't. Fortunately I have never needed to go past a warning but I just don't understand when this started being acceptable. It wasn't inmy parents or grand parents day. Perhaps I'm old fashioned? I don't know, but I fail to see why I should be pawed again and again against my express wishes??


Red

Quite right, you shouldn't. To continue to hug someone after they've expressly asked you not to is inexcusable.

Personally I think it is very unprofessional for someone to do this in the workplace. She doesn't sound like a close friend and had absolutely no reason to even hug once.

Personally I like hugs from family and friends but I would be uncomfortable with what you are describing.
 
I just don't understand when this started being acceptable. It wasn't inmy parents or grand parents day. Perhaps I'm old fashioned?

I think it's only in the past couple of years, probably as more people have watched daft tv programmes with squealy girls in them. I certainly don't remember anyone other than very close friends trying to hug me up until about 5 years ago.
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
Its all a bit odd really. You see I'm sure that what Toddy enjoys is normal in her world. Just as its not normal in mine. Its certainly different if you travel. The French are very huggy. The Japanese wouldn't dream of it. I wouldn't dream of it - but I'm English. You can get thirty of us in a lift without any of us touching.

I guess if it shows anything, it shows what some of us like, enjoy or are comfortable with, others of us dislike to the point of considering it rude, inappropriate or even creepy.

I'm quite sure that this is as true of words, language (foul OR luvvy duvvy), physical actions (which can be eye contact up to rough housing).

My conclusions? I guess for me being "over reserved" is preferable to "over familiar",

But that's just me - and maybe why I like my company in small select groups. As Mikey P says - its why I don't function well in large groups. Spent the afternoon at the Wilderness Gathering once - a few people I wanted to meeet. Really glad I met them too. Was happy though to to go back to my car, drive home, and go into the woods with just BB. I would have quite happily taken the three or four guys I met with me. But thats about my limit!

Red
 

locum76

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Oct 9, 2005
2,772
9
48
Kirkliston
by Shaun Handy

"Give me a hug"
Said the boy to the girl.
"Who'd wanna hug you"
She said with a snarl.

"Give me a hug"
Said the boy to the dad.
"Not now son,
There's money to be had!"

"Give me a hug"
Said the boy to the mum.
"It'll have to wait son,
If you want food in your tum!"

"Give me a hug"
Said the boy to himself.
And hug himself he did -
Alone in his own little world...
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
Put thirty Scots in a lift and we'll have found out everyone's job and that the guy at the buttons is related to the wifie who stayed next door to the wee woman at the back's Granny :rolleyes: before it gets up five floors.
Ignore someone when you're standing at a bus stop at your peril :D

Not quite true but it's pretty close sometimes.

Hugging is a normal part of life for me, though the indescriminate right to kiss folks at the New Year can sometimes get a bit wearing.
I go into the workshops and everybody I know hugs me :cool: It's kind of expected really.

I agree that if the lady concerned had been asked three times and she persisted, then you have a right to clearly denounce her actions. I still don't agree with the threat of a slapped face mind you, but no, it sounds as though she was well out of order.

cheers,
M
 

Indoorsout

Settler
Apr 29, 2008
509
1
Brisbane, Australia
Just read through this whole thread and I have to agree with many things. I have Tourettes and was totally unsurprised to get 36 on that test :) as I've long thought I'm not neurotypical.

I struggle a lot with social interactions, sometimes more with ASD's than I do with NT's. I find it hard to cope with other people and even knowing why someone is acting the way they are doesn't stop me getting p'd off. My boy has high-function autism and there were many times I had to get off on my own because I coundn't handle the behavoiur. My girl is nearly in her teens and OCD. Having to deal with these things plus my ex's AS eventually broke up our relationship, I just couldn't cope with it. On the whole I find it much easier on my own. It can be lonely but it's much easier on the nerves!

Sometimes I'll react before I think it through enough and that causes problems. One of the reasons I like the 'net is the chance to delete what I've posted before it gets on the board. I'll react to what I've read, start to post on it then think a bit more as I'm writing and stop. Something you can't do in a face to face conversation!

As for hugging, I'm a reluctant huggee :) I rarely shake hands. I'm not as militant about it as Red but most people can take the hint so it's never been too much of a problem.

As for meets/moots, I've been to a couple of pagan moots and even knowing the people involved it was hard to deal with. One reason I don't go to many organised meetups.

Well, part of me wants to erase all that. Another part wants to write another few chapters explaining why I wrote that! So I guess the best thing is to stop here :D
 

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