Disability and behavior of members

firecrest

Full Member
Mar 16, 2008
2,496
4
uk
I agree with most of what you said, I mentioned that tolerance doesnt mean `putting up with behavior` Tolerance is respect. Sure tell someone to leave you alone if they are pesting you. but like I said, there is a right and a wrong way "please give me some space for a while/you've asked me too many questions/Im not prepared to tell you that its private ect" are all responses that are acceptable. "F*** off you **** is , in my opinion, NOT acceptable.
And yes Im sure there is incidences where you will use those words to meet the level of the actual complaint. Like John said, if someone wakes him up talking to loud in the early hours of the morning, Id expect a few swear words to be wholy appropriate!
Where my complaint lies is how it mysteriously came acceptable by some to carry their grudges over to normal conversation, so any attempt at normal conversation, even just saying "hello" resulted in swearing. Out of context like that it IS verbal abuse. it is not helpful, and for those of us with social disorders even seeing that it is seem as acceptable for some members to swear and get nasty at social faux pas at any occassion, long after the original event is distressing and confusing.
I am familiar with a wide range of autistic behavior so I can fully understand you needing to make a distinction between autism and bad behavior. Incidentally when I go to Asperger meets, as a group we will not tolerate anybody having hissy fits and blaming their autism, as its largely apparent to the entire group when somebody is genuinely having problems with their disability and when they are not!
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
Very well thought through sapper.

I think its important to understand that there is no obligation on anyone to undersand autism - or any other disability for that matter.

A friend of mine has very severe insulin controlled diabetes. As he said.:

I used to get really upset when people thought I was drunk when in fact I was suffering from hypoglaecaemia.

Then one day I witnessed a man have a epileptic fit. I had no idea what to do.

It struck me that I was no more undersatnding of him than he was of me.

It also struck me that what I had learned was that my condition is MY condition. I have to learn to manage it and it is both unreasonable and impractical to expect others to do so. I now wear an SOS talisman and carry a laminated card that says "I am not drunk. I have diabetes. Please help me by........."


Now of course we can all show tolerance and understanding of others. But it IS unreasonable and impractical to expect the worlds population to learn about every condition out there on the offchance they meet us.

Violence is never acceptable - but banter, barbed comments and sometimes verbal abuse are part of life.

My conditions mean, on ocaasions I am physically incapable of keeping up with others. I choose not to Bushcraft in large groups as it means I WILL slow others down from what they want to do - and why should they not do what they want to just cause I'm a slow coach? Many people offer generously to help. But I don't want them to. I want to do for myself at my own pace and not feel as though I need help. That though is my problem NOT theirs. There is no reason for them to alter to accomodate me.

What am I saying? That I think those of us with unalterable conditions have a responsibility to not expect from others what we cannot give. Why should they change to accomodate us, when we wont (or can't) change to accomodate them.

All relationships are a two way street after all!

Red
 

deenewcastle

Tenderfoot
Jul 28, 2009
89
0
Newcastle upon Tyne
Well said Red, that's one of the best posts on this thread. I too have a few conditions and experience many of the traits discussed on thread, even though I carry no label or diagnosis and work full time in the MH/LD field. As this thread has continued, I have been discussing it with my housemate, for whom I am the only and unpaid carer. She has far more problems than I do and has a dual diagnosis of forms of learning disability and mental ill health. I made a post earlier which, as we both expected, was pretty much dismissed. I would willingly lay down my life to save my friend, and I will, and do, take on every bureaucrat that upsets her, but sometimes, and it doesn't happen often, when she just won't let something drop, I turn to her and shout "Shut the F*** Up!". It's not very articulate of me I know, but it's very effective, and she knows me well enough to know that I'm don't want to upset her, but have to find a way to stop her spiralling.

As I said in my earliest post, bullying is just wrong, and it doesn't matter whether the recipient had a developmental disorder, is suffering from mental ill health (irrespective of whether that's 'transcient' or permanent), has no known disability, or is even just being a prat.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
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S. Lanarkshire
I must admit I have a problem with folks swearing at their friends and familr; it's just that mine don't. Not ever.
I have to accept that it's perhaps not now mainstream, but there are a great many of us who have never sworn at our children or husbands / wives or parents.
I find that seeing someone being roundly sworn at almost as hard to tolerate as I do someone being hit.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones,
But names may hurt me very much "
as the children are taught.

I think if the thread raises awareness it's been a very good thing, even if it has been uncomfortable reading sometimes. Lots of valid comment.

Hard as it can be to stick your head above the parapet Lindsey, very well done for the wake up call to all of us. :approve:

cheers,
M

p.s. British Red, I think folks might surprise you, I get to walk at my own pace, I wander at my own rate, I tell folks truthfully I'm fine and it would please me more if they'd just get on, and I'll ramble in my own good time. The Moot is so laid back anyway that there is no hassle. The time fair flies by though :)
 

firecrest

Full Member
Mar 16, 2008
2,496
4
uk
Thanks Toddy :)

Yes, Red, don't feel bad about slowing people down, its your society to, it belongs to everybody. Like I said in my first post, nobody would dream it acceptable to tell somebody with a stutter to go F off. If everybody with a stutter went and hid themselves away so `others wouldnt have to suffer them` we would never learn more tolerance as a society.
Its strange how disability seems to be the final stumbling block. people with whatever labels should not feel they have to take a back seat in order for the general populace to have their fun without being affronted.
I spend a lot of my time supporting a man who shouts constantly. He is non-verbal, the only noise he makes is a very loud bark. Everybody said for years "he is doing it for attention ect" "its just bad behavior" all his shouting was met with shouts back to shut up. When he had a pace maker fitter to a nerve in his brain, the shouting has reduced about 90%, thus proving he had no control over the random shouting it was epilepsy.
If his shouting is too bad, I wont take him somewhere it will be disruptive like a cinema or relaxation classes, but I do expect him to be able to access society without complaint. we go swimming, shopping and to cafes, museums ect. I see people looking annoyed and wishing we would go away, but my attitude is that they can shove it. If we can all learn to be oblivious to random shouting, so can everybody else. People have to meet half way.
The irony is, despite him not speaking, not being toilet trained and having no useful self help skills, he is remarkably intelligent, reads french news papers , follows politics, and after googling his name, I saw he wrote a chapter in a book on autism. That is the nature of some kinds of autism, and they are entitled to enjoy life as much as the rest of us.
 

Cobweb

Native
Aug 30, 2007
1,149
31
South Shropshire
**LONG POST**
But if you get confused in social situations and the interactions between male and female please read :)


I might be stirring the pot here but I'd like to clarify some of the intentions that may be perceived as rude or otherwise.

I have had (and still do ) trouble knowing what is acceptable and what is not, so I'd like to give a little clarification on the rules that govern male interactions and female interactions which vary quite significantly.

Males tend to be a bit more physical in their interactions. For example, ribbing or generally 'extracting the urine' is a friendly and welcome overture, and, depending
on who is in a group, swearing and telling someone to f*** off is considered appropriate, in good humour and fun depending on what has been said before and if the phrase is memorable as
being a joke (Fiery Tw*t for example), Although saying that, sometimes it can be seen as mean, it does depend on body language and facial expression a great deal.
Innuendo is a big part of male bonding and wrestling features quite heavily as well. It's not considered violent or aggressive, just a rite of passage, including other males into the group.

Females tend to be more restrained. Banter is generally in the realms of 'gossip'. Females generally are a lot less physical and display none of the signs of ribbing or generally 'extracting the urine',
we also tend to be a lot less physical in our dealings with other females, hugging is one thing that differs, females tend to hug a lot more.
Our topics of converstation tend towards other people, sometimes known as gossip and wrestling is considered a great no-no. Apart from a hug or light touches such as picking lint from
clothing or hairdressing between female acquaintances or friends, physical contact simply doesn't happen, if there is physical contact such as wrestling, it's called a fight and is considered violence.

----


When males and females are in a group together, misunderstandings can arise from each others behaviour...

If a female hugs a new male acquaintance (some one they have known for 8 hours or less) then it will be considered a sexual overture. Similarly if a male tries to initiate a wrestling match with a female
at any point in the friendship, the female will see this as an attack and the friendship will end, even if the male feels that they were just trying to be friendly.

Male banter tends to dominate any conversation where there are two or more males in a conversation, trying to have a female conversation will result in the males generally going along with it for a while
and then relapsing into their main type of group conversation - banter and innuendo.
If there are significantly more (3:1) females than males in a conversation then the female type of behaviour and conversation will be prevalent.

Although the above does depend on how confident either the males or females are, for example if there are three males and two females in a conversation and the males are very confident, the conversation
will be male based and vice versa, with the females taking the lead in the conversation if the males are less confident.

This is when it starts to get confusing...
Social situations change the dynamics of any group...

In everyday life, such as the office or the local pub:

Males will tend towards posturing instead of wrestling. Standing up straight, head high ect... If they do this with other males, it's perfectly acceptable, although if they do this with females
it's considered an aggressive posture and will likely be met with coldness and sharp or short words from the female and an instant dislike that can last forever! (men, here's a tip, when you meet a female in any
situation, assume the humble position or if you don't know how to do that, then dip your head :) )

Females will often vie for power via dress and body language, Tall, and confident Usually gained with high heels) will win the day.

For both male and female, the conversational topics tend towards the office, family and the business rather than anything else, female's will possible talk about celebrities or family and home, but the conversations tend
to be bland and very vanilla.

----

Bushcraft allows both sexes the freedom to break free from the societal norms and express themselves as they would in an intimate situation. The problem of finding something to talk about is taken away as every
single person there is interested in bushcraft so the major stepping stone to making friendships (finding a topic that you both can talk about equally) is readily available.

Males and female interactions still have their boundaries but after a few drinks the barriers are dropped and it can come as a shock to both sexes to see each others interactional norms.

Males will behave in front of females like they do in an all male group in safe and familiar surroundings (ragging, ribbing, 'extracting the urine' and wrestling) which they don't normally do in a social situation (at the pub or office)

Females will tend to join in more with the male form of behaviour, although wrestling is strictly off the menu, most females feel as if they can 'let their hair down' and join in the banter and ribbing.

The problem arises when the females that have only ever had a female interaction come into this relaxed atmosphere and it can be confusing and sometimes even frightening. There is nothing to be frightened of, the males
will not hurt the female, far from it, but the fear can still be there are might lead to misunderstanding.


So rounding up:

Males in a group where they feel relaxed and comfortable with themselves and each other will wrestle, call each other names and 'extract the urine'. This is a normal behaviour between males and creates friendship bonds and affection.
Females in a relaxed and comfortable group will talk about feelings, emotions and sex (yes men ;) sex ) Females don't tend to talk about sex in front of males, but it has been known to happen.

Mixed groups will generally take on the male aspects of conversation, although that does depend on the ratio...

(3:1) If there are three females to every one male, the conversation will tend towards the female style.
(1:1) One to one ratio, the conversation will spilt into groups, more so if the people don't know each other very well, males on one side and females on the other (you can see this happening anywhere).If it's just a male and female talking then the conversation can go either way, depending on the more confident speaker.
(1:3) Three males to one female, the conversation will definitely be male based.

Alcohol will make these numbers smaller as it releases inhibitions.

Another interesting note, males will refrain from wrestling in front of females unless they have had a drink or two,,,


I hope this had helped clarify some of the more esoteric points of conversation and male/female relationshops.... Let the flames begin!
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,305
3,088
67
Pembrokeshire
Dang me - we "norms" are a wierd crew!
No wonder some folk have trouble understanding us and responding in an "acceptable" manner!
It is good to see our behaviour broken down in such a way - it realy does help understand our unconcious responses to situations and how someone unfamiliar may find it hard to fit in.

Toddy - as to swearing...in much of the society swearing is the norm! Unfortunate but true...
For some of the locals there only seems to be one adjective and it is also used as a verb and a noun with abandon.
As with picking up a local accent - I have fallen into using similar language.
I do try to moderate what I say but...blow me down...it aint easy!
I even swear at myself (at length and "colourfully") when I am alone...
If anyone else used this abuse to me - we would fall out!
It does make a useful release of frustrations though, but perhaps a wider vocab would ameliorate the situation!
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,305
3,088
67
Pembrokeshire
But........but.........I hug everybody I like ! and it's not a come on :eek:

Brilliant post :D

:grouphug:
Mary

I tend to be very tactile - and in certain sections of the circle I move in even the blokes hug - non sexually!:eek:
I have been married too long and got too old for my hugs to be "advances".....I just wouldn't remember what came next in the seduction game!:(
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
:lmao:
Just remember it's fun :D

I know the swearing is considered normal behaviour to many people, but I know I'm not the only one who can't use it. I don't take offence in normal situations but to be sworn *at*, that's different.

cheers,
M
 

firecrest

Full Member
Mar 16, 2008
2,496
4
uk
Yes You `normal` people really are a strange crew! you go through this whole ritual of beginning a conversation by talking about the weather and then you ask questions that you dont want a real answer to such as "do look good in this hat? or do you think Ive put on weight?" The correct answer , according to normal people, is a lie!
"why of course you look good in this hat, I don't think you look any bigger at all!"
The asperger answer is far more honest and logical;
"I don't care about hats and yes I think you gained about 5.4 pounds to be precise!"
The normal persons answer to this truth is "what? you total *&%$&! how dare you!" kind of baffling when you only told them the information they requested!
So part of the normalisation process (and remember its only normal because its in the majority) is to learn to tell lies!!

Cobweb - very good anylisation. worryingly... I think I might be a man!. Im one of the worst for fireside mickey taking, innuendo and wrestling men. probably I failed to recognise the gender distinction. oh well!!
 

Cobweb

Native
Aug 30, 2007
1,149
31
South Shropshire
Oh dear...hugs :eek:
You had to to go and do it... :p


There are many types of hugs (Can include cheek kissing.)...

Hug 1: Friends - Usually after speaking in depth with a person from 3-8+ hours. One of 'those' long conversations. Considered 'friendly' friend hug.
Body position, tops togerther, facing each other but with pelvic areas distinctly seperate. Lasts about 3 seconds (1 elephant, 2 elephant...) with vocalisation, eg, see you soon, lovely to meet you ect...

Emotion: Friendly Love, loss.
(Toddy and John... your type of hug methinks :))



Hug 2: Good Friends - Usually at the end of an acquaintance or when someone will be gone for a while. Person is definitely in the friend category.
Very similar to hug #1 but with pelvic areas a little closer and longer hugging, up to five secs. Little or no vocalisation.

Emotions: Loss, Love, Need.



Hug 3: Sexual intentions - after speaking for less than 2 hours (or less).
Hug is same as #1 with tops connecting but either female or male will 'lean' on other person trying to initiate pelvic contact, it's hard to tell if this is happening apart from the leaning.
Vocalisation can happen, usually a whisper. Ps. if you are the lean-ee and you want to take it further, lean as well and rest head on other persons shoulder.
Lasts as long as you want, if mutual attraction, hug will morph into kissing/face stroking/cheek to cheek contact/hair tugging/eye gazing/nose to nose...
If non mutual attraction, then about 3 secs, if that.

Emotions: Depends.
If leaner - Attraction, lust, need, want
Lean-ee: Depends...
Attraction mutual: Same feelings as leaner.
No attraction: uncomfortable, confusion, sometimes fear.



Hug 4: Family Hug - depending on family, (and friends can fall into this category if the friend is considered family) Similar to #1 except the squeeze is tighter and the hug lasts for about 4 secs. Usually with vocalisations.

Emotion: Same as #1



Hug 5: Society Hug, aka the 'quickie' As #1 hug lasts about 1 second, if that. It's a confirmation of societal expectations. Usually with a quick cheek kiss 'muah'.

Emotion: Boredom.



Hug 6: Kids you don't know well. Sideways hug, taught by nursing organisations. Hug is one armed from the side, think friendly group pictures. Lasts about 2 secs if that. More of a 'token' hug than a hug.

Emotion: Boredom, Uncomfortable.




There are still many more variations on the hug, it took me ages to learn them all and the associated expectations...The position of arms, eyes shut or open, place and previous conversation also have many, many things to do with a hug as well. They are soooo confusing! :grouphug:
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
That's quite some analysis Michelle :cool:

I'm just a cuddly little lady..........in every sense of the word. :eek:

My friends hug all the time, it's normal for us.I kind of take that kind of well meaning affection as just that. It doesn't need to be intense, it's just a hug :D
It never dawned on me that I might be causing other folks conniption fits :embarrassed:

The correct response to, "Does this hat suit me ?", when it patently doesn't :rolleyes: is, "It's a lovely colour :) " and to the dreaded weight one, is "I haven't seen you wear that before." Obfuscation is the name of the game :D

cheers,
M
 

firecrest

Full Member
Mar 16, 2008
2,496
4
uk
anyway, There is a quite a few famous faces in the Asperger club.

Albert Eintstein (definately so, did not talk till aged 3, not sociable, obsessive, odd ect)
Newton
bill gates
david bellamy
Gary Newman
Steven Speilberg
Dan akroid
Thomas Edison

Quite alot, it's no coincidence either, obsessive persuit of a single interest can lead to one climbing to the top of their field.
 

Cobweb

Native
Aug 30, 2007
1,149
31
South Shropshire
Lol Toddy, you are lovely and cuddly and don't fret over the meaning, Most just assume it's all good.
I don't have a problem with hugs now, before I learning the various connotations and meanings, I ran away from hugs.
Some people are just not huggy people, would you believe bramble is only just starting to get comfy with hugs :)
 

British Red

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Dec 30, 2005
26,887
2,140
Mercia
Oh dear...hugs :eek:
You had to to go and do it... :p


There are many types of hugs (Can include cheek kissing.)...

Hug 1: Friends - Usually after speaking in depth with a person from 3-8+ hours. One of 'those' long conversations. Considered 'friendly' friend hug.
Body position, tops togerther, facing each other but with pelvic areas distinctly seperate. Lasts about 3 seconds (1 elephant, 2 elephant...) with vocalisation, eg, see you soon, lovely to meet you ect...

Emotion: Friendly Love, loss.
(Toddy and John... your type of hug methinks :))



Hug 2: Good Friends - Usually at the end of an acquaintance or when someone will be gone for a while. Person is definitely in the friend category.
Very similar to hug #1 but with pelvic areas a little closer and longer hugging, up to five secs. Little or no vocalisation.

Emotions: Loss, Love, Need.



Hug 3: Sexual intentions - after speaking for less than 2 hours (or less).
Hug is same as #1 with tops connecting but either female or male will 'lean' on other person trying to initiate pelvic contact, it's hard to tell if this is happening apart from the leaning.
Vocalisation can happen, usually a whisper. Ps. if you are the lean-ee and you want to take it further, lean as well and rest head on other persons shoulder.
Lasts as long as you want, if mutual attraction, hug will morph into kissing/face stroking/cheek to cheek contact/hair tugging/eye gazing/nose to nose...
If non mutual attraction, then about 3 secs, if that.

Emotions: Depends.
If leaner - Attraction, lust, need, want
Lean-ee: Depends...
Attraction mutual: Same feelings as leaner.
No attraction: uncomfortable, confusion, sometimes fear.



Hug 4: Family Hug - depending on family, (and friends can fall into this category if the friend is considered family) Similar to #1 except the squeeze is tighter and the hug lasts for about 4 secs. Usually with vocalisations.

Emotion: Same as #1



Hug 5: Society Hug, aka the 'quickie' As #1 hug lasts about 1 second, if that. It's a confirmation of societal expectations. Usually with a quick cheek kiss 'muah'.

Emotion: Boredom.



Hug 6: Kids you don't know well. Sideways hug, taught by nursing organisations. Hug is one armed from the side, think friendly group pictures. Lasts about 2 secs if that. More of a 'token' hug than a hug.

Emotion: Boredom, Uncomfortable.




There are still many more variations on the hug, it took me ages to learn them all and the associated expectations...The position of arms, eyes shut or open, place and previous conversation also have many, many things to do with a hug as well. They are soooo confusing! :grouphug:
You missed one Cobweb.

The unwelcome one!

As a bloke I dislike being hugged by any woman who is not my wife of daughter. Even my mother learned its just not acceptable to hug me. Interestingly there is a cultural dimension too. The French hug a great deal at less degree of relationship.

As I said to a director of a large PLC when I obected to her trying to hug me (for the third time) - Its unwanted physical contact. From here on in, if you hug me, I slap you. Be told.

Some people find hugging warm and expressive. Others find it unwanted, unpleasant and invasive. I include myself on that list.

I like the analysis of gender interactions - I would analyse them totally differently - but then I'm a man and I think you aren't!

Red


Oh thanks for the comments firecrest and Toddy - however I'm totally comfortable with not including myself in things like moots. I don't enjoy them, as I prefer to do things at my pace, without slowing or impinging on others pleasure. I would feel selfish to do so and I can enjoy myself quite nicely with my darling wife and a few good friends - half of whom are more stuffed than me :)

It is lovely to meet nice people in smaller groups however - there are indeed some real stars out there - Lou1661, Mesquite and G4GHB spring to mind as people I count myself lucky to have met ;)
 

Cobweb

Native
Aug 30, 2007
1,149
31
South Shropshire
Red, there are thousands and thousands of hugs and variations thereof. Thanks for adding a couple :)

Body language of the hug-ee does come into play as well, if they turn their head away, frown or take a step backwards when the hugger moves in for a hug, it's a good idea for the hugger to stop.

Again it's all dependant on the huggers ability to read body language and facial expression, so if in doubt, don't.
 

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