When you're on the menu. What would you do?

EddieP

Forager
Nov 7, 2013
127
0
Liverpool
how did the people in bear countries cope with bears before (modern) firearms were invented/introduced?! I know that the bear hunters in Japan (Hokkaido) carry (or carried) a large knife with hollow handle (the condor matagi is based on this design) which could be mounted on a pole but I don't fancy trying this idea with a grizzly or polar bear.......

Killed any they saw on sight I guess. It'd be interesting to see the mortality and morbidity stats for such times.

The inuit used to hunt polar bears with spears.

Playing dead doesn't work with polar bears, they just start eating. It only works with bears who are trying to scare you off to neutralise a threat. Once Isbjørn has put in the effort, you become dinner.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
Importantly you may hire from an FFL, but not borrow from a friend. I confirmed this with the ATF.

As a retired cop I categorically refute that. I legally can, and have loaned guns to British friends often (in my case we were at the range) It is true that hiring one would require an FFL as "hiring" is a commercial business (the FFL is a commercial license) but loaning a private gun is a private, noncommercial action and as such requires NO license. Just like private sale require NO license. The ATF has long had a poor reputation.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
Of course they would.
Because it was winter.
Because they were hibernating.
No-one carried a firearm. They had lived there all their lives.
Because as a tourist I would not be allowed to carry a firearm where I was, in Ontario.

take your pick.

When traveling as a tourist over Canada (Ontario, et al) en route to Alaska we were required by Canadian law to carry firearms aboard in order to get permission for the flight. When traveling/visiting in Canadian wilderness areas most provinces require you be accompanied by either a professional guide or other local (either of which would ordinarily be armed when in the wilderness.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
What's the point of knowledge and experience when you can have a gun! :rolleyes:
:)

Not having a gun points to a lack of knowledge and experience; or an overly inflated ego. For whatever reason you seem to think a tv personality (Mors) has more knowledge and experience than a true First Nations member (Tsitenhsa) whose living depends on the outdoors and has done most of his life, as well as others of us who've hunted since we were old enough to toddle behind Daddy or the dogs.

Besides, half the point of going to a true wilderness area is the adventure. That usually includes hunting dangerous game.
 
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Countryman

Native
Jun 26, 2013
1,652
74
North Dorset
how did the people in bear countries cope with bears before (modern) firearms were invented/introduced?! I know that the bear hunters in Japan (Hokkaido) carry (or carried) a large knife with hollow handle (the condor matagi is based on this design) which could be mounted on a pole but I don't fancy trying this idea with a grizzly or polar bear.......

You don't want to try it with any sort of bear. Up close and personal bears are a surprise.

Bear fatalities are statistically quite rare but if you understood what a bogeyman they are in North American culture and the extents gone to in avoiding and preparing for an encounter then you might forgive the poor statistics.

"Prepping" is fundamentally what you do for any extended trip into the wilder parts of the world. If you don't the you are a statistic waiting to happen. Whilst the UK is an incredibly benign place to live in terms of its climate and fauna there are deaths here every year due to poor preparation, equipment and knowledge.

Kit will save your life but only if you know how to use it and ideally are practiced in using it. That goes from starting fires and setting up camp but in particular to kit you need in high stress situations like a firearm.

I find this story particularly distressing. Young boys dad is the spinal consultant at my local (25 miles away) hospital. Gun used was probably a Mauser with an original "flag safety"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ge-polar-bears-eyes-after-student-attack.html
 

tsitenha

Nomad
Dec 18, 2008
384
5
Kanata
Trolling: a willful negative response to illicit a reaction.
I have seen, smelt, heard the effect of a flaming tent that has melted down on a mother and her daughter. The screams as the Drs. stripped away burnt tissue from them, especially the young one.
Bears are curious animal and very intelligent, looking into a tent is not an attack.
If you want to use a short bat (you’re in a tent) to hit a bear, well go practise on a junk yard dog, well within his chain length and beat him, see how that goes for you.
You mention Ontario, to possess a firearm you will need a PAL. We only have black bear (no matter the colour phase). A 12ga cruiser will do you, if you know how to handle it, and have the nerve, otherwise leave it in the store.
In such a circumstance bear spray will do you best, as long as you can use it close and effectively.
A cow mooze will stomp you, do what it take to protect its calf, in rut a bull mooze could take exception to your very presence. An injured or twisted limb, a broken ankle will be a much greater worry.
Now I have been very nice in my response to you (you can thank my wife).
Mors Kochanski, Ray Mears etc.. are not the only ones who are bushman. There are a lot across Canada, US and the world that have very solid experience, Joe T., Sman some more, here on this board are such an example. Listen, don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
Yo
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
11
Brigantia
A freakin gun was not neccesary.
If it was the guys who owned guns, who knew the area a lot better than anyone here, who had lived there, their entire lives would have had one! Sheesh. :)

Im pulling out of this one now. No offence intended Tsitenha. Ive sent you a PM. You can feel free to say whatever your heart desires in response.
 
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EddieP

Forager
Nov 7, 2013
127
0
Liverpool
As a retired cop I categorically refute that. I legally can, and have loaned guns to British friends often (in my case we were at the range) It is true that hiring one would require an FFL as "hiring" is a commercial business (the FFL is a commercial license) but loaning a private gun is a private, noncommercial action and as such requires NO license. Just like private sale require NO license. The ATF has long had a poor reputation.

To clarify, my question to the ATF was regarding unsupervised borrowing. Not use at a range with the owner present. But if I'm mistaken sorry.
 

Nomad64

Full Member
Nov 21, 2015
1,072
597
UK
Not having a gun points to a lack of knowledge and experience; or an overly inflated ego. For whatever reason you seem to think a tv personality (Mors) has more knowledge and experience than a true First Nations member (Tsitenhsa) whose living depends on the outdoors and has done most of his life, as well as others of us who've hunted since we were old enough to toddle behind Daddy or the dogs.

Besides, half the point of going to a true wilderness area is the adventure. That usually includes hunting dangerous game.

As they say, "if you are a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" - if you are a gun enthusiast, then I guess every situation calls for a gun - preferably a big one.

The OP's question was not "What type of gun should I take when hunting bear" but what sort of "defensive tools" would be appropriate to guard against the risk of dangerous animals while wild camping in Europe. People on this forum seem to be an inclusive bunch and its always interesting to hear perspectives from other places but the problem is that as soon as you do the discussion seems to invariably slew off in the direction of "Here in (North) 'Murica the critters in the woods are incredibly dangerous and only a fool would head off into the woods without a gun" followed by lots of argument as to how big/many guns you need.

You guys like your guns and I would no more expect to convince you that they are not an essential part of life either in urban or wild areas than I would no more expect to be able to convince a religious fundamentalist (of whatever persuasion) that their view of the world and afterlife may not be the only one but the reality seems that more people die in the USA each year after being shot by toddlers (admittedly that does include kids who kill themselves) than are killed by bears, wolves and mountain lions combined. The gun related carnage in the US may be a price you guys are willing to pay for your right to bear arms but some people on this side of the pond wonder whether you have got your priorities right although if it makes you feel any better, most people over here also think that Piers Morgan is a d!ckhead albeit for different reasons!

I don't have an issue with guns per se and although I don't own a gun and if my needs (by which I mean vermin control or protein acquisition for personal use) change, I would happily acquire one but I don't get horny about guns or at the prospect of taking one into a "combat" or "self-defence" situation, as another responder to this thread put it. I've spent a fair bit of time travelling and working in some fairly wild and woolly places and if I'm going somewhere where an objective assessment of the risks and/or local laws dictate that an appropriately armed person accompanies me then needs must but having guns around doesn't automatically make me feel safer - perhaps having a SMLE rammed up my nose by a ranger who turned, tripped and fell taking me down with him while tracking elephants on foot has something to do with it!

Bushcraft is a broad church (other religions are available and IMHO equally (in)valid)) and each to their own but for me the WHOLE point of going into a true wilderness area is to appreciate the beauty of being in the wild, returning unscathed with (hopefully) some decent photographs of the environs and its wildlife (and sometimes the indigenous people) and with a better insight into their behaviour but leaving both pretty much as I found them.

Given the numbers of people in US killed and injured in "friendly fire" hunting accidents 2013 was heralded as a good year in New York State (I've no idea how representative this is of the other 49 states) with 19 shootings and only 2 fatalities - yay! :beerchug:, the wildlife is far from the biggest hazard in the woods.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/95689.html

Personally I'd be more nervous taking a midnight leak if I was sharing a camping area with a bunch of paranoid gun enthusiasts (sober or otherwise) sleeping with a gun next to their sleeping bag than I would about the local wildlife.

Back to the OP's question - the risks are incredibly small but since bears (regardless of the statistical evidence to the contrary) are perceived as the most dangerous things in the woods here is some feedback from someone who lives in European "bear country". Last year I spent some time listening to a presentation by a Rumanian lady keen to introduce the Brits to her fine range of rustic cuisine which included her delicious bear sausages. When asked about the dangers of living in "bear country", she replied that sometimes the younger kids get a bit frightened when out foraging if they find a bear on the opposite side of the bush they are collecting from but they weren't a serious danger.

IME badly behaved dogs are the biggest nuisance/threat in the UK - I've been bitten (mauled?) at least 4 times over the last few years (enough to draw blood/tear clothes but nothing serious) and always feel more comfortable with a walking pole when out and about though I do like the look of Mors' bear bat.

Safe travels and watch out for those cows. :)
 
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EddieP

Forager
Nov 7, 2013
127
0
Liverpool
The "combat" quote was wrt a flare in a tent. Not me getting horny over firearms.

I can't think of a better word to describe an encounter where you are having to defend yourself against a preditor trying to eat you.

Likewise "self defense" quite succinctly summaries a situation where one has to defens one's self.
 
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Nomad64

Full Member
Nov 21, 2015
1,072
597
UK
The "combat" quote was wrt a flare in a tent. Not me getting horny over firearms.

I can't think of a better word to describe an encounter where you are having to defend yourself against a preditor trying to eat you.

Likewise "self defense" quite succinctly summaries a situation where one has to defens one's self.

Apologies but earlier when you said,

That's the nice thing about Polar Bear territory, there is an expectation and sometimes a mandate for self defence.

I read that as you getting rather excited at the prospect of having to use a gun to defend yourself against a polar bear rather than seeing appropriate bear precautions as being a regrettable necessity for visiting their habitat.

My mistake and although this clearly doesn't apply to you, I am more comfortable around people who carry guns as a matter of fact tool of their trade rather than "enthusiasts". :)
 

EddieP

Forager
Nov 7, 2013
127
0
Liverpool
Apologies but earlier when you said,



I read that as you getting rather excited at the prospect of having to use a gun to defend yourself against a polar bear rather than seeing appropriate bear precautions as being a regrettable necessity for visiting their habitat.

My mistake and although this clearly doesn't apply to you, I am more comfortable around people who carry guns as a matter of fact tool of their trade rather than "enthusiasts". :)


In hindsight I can see how that sounds. It was more to highlight that there is are sensible laws and allowances for us to protect ourselves.
 
You don't want to try it with any sort of bear. Up close and personal bears are a surprise.

Bear fatalities are statistically quite rare but if you understood what a bogeyman they are in North American culture and the extents gone to in avoiding and preparing for an encounter then you might forgive the poor statistics.

l


sorry in case I was not (entirely) clear with my previous post: I have no intentions to chase bears with knifes (or hunt them at all).....
 

Countryman

Native
Jun 26, 2013
1,652
74
North Dorset
I was more of the mind we were talking about defence against a bear rather than hunting one which with a spear or knife would be an instant Darwin Award


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EddieP

Forager
Nov 7, 2013
127
0
Liverpool
I was more of the mind we were talking about defence against a bear rather than hunting one which with a spear or knife would be an instant Darwin Award

If an animal is unaware of your presence it is easier to kill, so I think using a spear as a defence is more risky than in an ambush hunt.

Indigenous populations have hunted dangerous game with spears etc. since the dawn of time.
 

Gcckoka

Settler
Nov 13, 2015
818
99
Georgia
When I am in such area that there is a danger of being on the menu I carry my 20ga shotgun , I want to upgrade on a cheap pulp action 12ga with pistol grip so that it won't be too heavy and will be easy to carry in a backpack sheath.
 

Countryman

Native
Jun 26, 2013
1,652
74
North Dorset
There's a lot of ignorance about predator behaviour displayed in this thread. You don't have to be a "Gun Nut" to perceive the value of a firearm in an environment where you are not at the top of the food chain.

Black bears 350lbs are Bipolar. This makes them dangerous.
Brown bears 600lbs are mostly inquisitive. You are not generally considered food but conflict can arise if you are perceived a threat or competition.
Grizzly biologically the same as a brown bear but bigger 900lbs, meaner and hungrier. Much more likely to perceive you as fair game.
Polar Bear. 1650lbs. If they are hungry and global warming is causing a massive issue with their ability to hunt seals. You are on the menu and as has been alluded to previously guns are a mandatory requirement (legally) for travelling in many areas where they live.

Clearly I'm a hammer but I doubt harsh words or a knife on a pole would have saved Horatio's party.


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Countryman

Native
Jun 26, 2013
1,652
74
North Dorset
If an animal is unaware of your presence it is easier to kill, so I think using a spear as a defence is more risky than in an ambush hunt.

Indigenous populations have hunted dangerous game with spears etc. since the dawn of time.

In groups. Such is legend in indigenous cultures. If you as a modern man think you possess the skills, strength and aggression then please let me know where to send flowers.
 

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