What to do with partially boggy land?

[bushcraftlearner83729]

I would again suggest you have a more in depth think about what you want to achieve. Do you want a load of slow growing curly willows? If not then don't plant them!

Do you want to make baskets or do you think you could sell basket willow? If not then dont grow them. Etc.

I've planted various willows. Some of the fast growing biomass hybrids, mainly for a wind break and to take out the excess nitrogen in a part of our land. They may eventually produce some poor quality firewood.

I am forming my views still but I want fast growing definitely because the land is quite barren and the hedgerow is thin to almost none existent in places. So I would like first and foremost fast growers for screening and privacy.

There are other great benefits though, like being able to weave so I am also interested in that as a side benefit. Also for a sustainable fuel source.

The bio mass ones on west wales willows say they are made specifically for fuel but they should work 'ok' for weaving projects too yes?

That is another good benefit, to be able to make 'benders' and other type of structures from them.

As for planting density the sites that sell cuttings will tell you, it'll be thousands per acre not 100.

Yea, so expect couple of grand then given the 200 for £235 figure from west wales willows?

One thing I am cognizant of though, if I am doing all of it alone, is how long will they be plantable for? In one sense if I bought them all at once and took me months to plant them the latter ones might not take right? On the other hand the window for selling cuttings seems to be a matter of a few months too. So it seems there might be tight time constraints either way? Depends on how long they will be plantable for if anyone can answer that for me to give me a better idea.

If it was going to be unmanageable with the time scales alone then I would consider either digger for the weed leveling so I would just have to plant or invite some good hippies for some volunteer days! I have a big network I can tap into for that if I want.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Wow check this out! This looks like an incredible deal!!! https://www.yorkshirewillow-shop.co...hybrid-cuttings-x-10-000-special-offer-price/

10k for £900!!!

I think I would struggle to use them all on the 2 acres? I do have another smaller plot of under 1 acre but even then would probably be thousands left over?

I could just carpet them cheek by jowl to use them all and then some will take and others would not?

Wow, they just replied that they only plant 50cm apart and would get 40,000 on 2 acres. Surely that is for commercial and I would not need to do them that close for decent screening?

 

[Pattree]

Hawthorne hedging is traditionally planted 25cm apart in two rows 20 - 25cm apart.

May we see some pictures of your land please. Something that shows water retention, slope and context. It’s the only way any advice might be useful.

Edited to add:
As you are new here you can’t post pictures direct yet but you can post a link to your pictures elsewhere.

 

[Paul_B]

I was taught that if you had too many to plant at once then you create a slot in the ground and put them at an angle in the slot then gently press down to seal the slot. This is very much a temporary solution though and it was for whips (small trees planted for hedging or general planting).

IIRC a spade stuck in at and angle to lift the soil up then stick a some in together and close. Repeat as needed. Only for young whips though I expect willow sticks would be ok too. Whips being the small saplings often supplied for hedging or quick planting. They can grow on quicker than bigger saplings due to the root damage in the bigger ones and they have to produce more roots to take off than the smaller ones which can pretty much start growing with what roots they have that survives the move and plant. As I was told a few times by different sources.

I have also been taught that this is a quick way to plant small whips too. Vertical spade in to open up the soil, drop the whip in then close around it and move to the next tree.

Of course this is all a distant memory from my conservation volunteering a good few decades ago so it could be either misremembered or simply I was taught wrong. Others on here know a lot more about this than I do but I believe the above is right.

 

[Pattree]

We used to “heel in” fruit rootstock cuttings in sand in the autumn. ( bundled together in a sloping cut to which we’d added sand. They stayed there until spring when they were carefully extracted with the beginnings of roots.
It was in a sheltered place.

What direction is your land orientated?
What is the wind run like?

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

We used to “heel in” fruit rootstock cuttings in sand in the autumn. ( bundled together in a sloping cut to which we’d added sand. They stayed there until spring when they were carefully extracted with the beginnings of roots.
It was in a sheltered place.

What direction is your land orientated?
What is the wind run like?

South in a valley on a gentle slope. So partially covered by the other side of the valley and trees on that side but mostly open. When the sun is out there is a fair amount of direct sunlight through the day. Made sure of this in my choice of purchasing land as I looked at some north side valley ones and they were somewhat bleak.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Is dead hedging a good shout? Got lots of cut back vegetation from the previous clearing and there are some large gaps in the hedge.

 

[Broch]

Is dead hedging a good shout? Got lots of cut back vegetation from the previous clearing and there are some large gaps in the hedge.

Dead hedging is a valuable wildlife resource if there is a lack of good scrub, shrub layer, and/or healthy hedges. It can be overdone and make the place look very 'engineered' especially in ancient woodland.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Revisiting this thread I have planted most of the open land now with willow, about 2/3s.

There is a corner which gets premium sunshine so I have been hesitant to just plant more trees on the prime real estate.

I have not however thought of better things to do with it as yet given I feel vegetables seem a waste of time. I am toying with the idea but I feel like why bother to grow anything yourself at all if you had to go to the shops anyway?

Any other ideas?

I will note that even though it gets the sun, being in a southerly direction, it is still boggy and most of it covered with reeds.

So probably wouldn't be good for growing vegatables anyway without drainage?

Any other ideas? If not then might just carry on and plant the rest with more willow.

 

[Toddy]

What would you actuallly like to do on the land ?

Do you want it to grow resources, be a wildlife habitat, a place to chill out, or do you want a garden and a place to live or just even camp?

All different sort of foundations in a way, is what I'm trying to say

 

[Glow_worm]

Why not follow the excellent advice you've been given more than once in this thread, and actually spend some time getting to know the land throughout the year before deciding what to do with it, if indeed anything does need to be done with it?

The fact you are repeatedly asking a bunch of strangers on the internet what to do with your patch of land suggests you need to forget any grand plans for now, slow down and start watching and listening to the heartbeat of the place.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

What would you actuallly like to do on the land ?

Do you want it to grow resources, be a wildlife habitat, a place to chill out, or do you want a garden and a place to live or just even camp?

All different sort of foundations in a way, is what I'm trying to say

Well the main reason I got it was just to escape other humans so gave little thought to how I would actually pass the time once on it.

From recommendations garnered here so far based on the land type I have planted trees, namely willow.

I am getting more into woodworking so thinking maybe that is a good route and manage it as a woodland proper.

I was already into sustainability so that seems to gel with my ideals and have been getting more into learning about the different types of willow and trees in general. Also good that they are generally low maintenance and provide a useful resource that can be taken while not harming the landscape and indeed good for them in the form of coppicing.

So perhaps simply carry on ahead as I am and indeed go right on ahead and plant that location too if I tree management is the main aim! Leave a modest space for woodworking perhaps.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

What would you actuallly like to do on the land ?

Do you want it to grow resources, be a wildlife habitat, a place to chill out, or do you want a garden and a place to live or just even camp?

All different sort of foundations in a way, is what I'm trying to say

Actually...

What would be involved if wanting to be 100% self-sufficient for food on approximately 2 acres of land considering not only the boggy land but a fully vegan diet so no animals or dairy?

My main staples are oats and rice which I eat probably a couple of kilos per week. So could they be grown on that small space or are either of those out of the question for the amounts in question?

The rest are various legumes and pulses with some root vegetables here and there.

Could all those be fit into 2 acres to feed one person year round, of course with storage for off seasons, perhaps using a root cellar or also electrical refrigeration, and drying and other preservation methods.

I have some knowledge and keen interest now of 12v electrical systems in the form of solar and other alternative energy harvesting methods so perhaps hydroponics or other fanciful growing techniques could be employed to aid to bolster the otherwise less then furtive land.

So I would be interested in what would be entailed for such an endeavour given all the considerations generally and of the land in question specifically.

 

[Toddy]

Rice does not grow well here, and it's a hard option.

Oats do grow well, but oats need an awful lot of processsing before you can actually eat them.
They have multiple layers of skins that need to be removed. Traditionally that is done by heating the oats and they fluff up and then they can be winnowed.
The subsequent grain is called the groat.
It's still a hard grain to deal with. You can break it, you can grind it, you can steam and press it into flakes, and you can make sowans and the like too....and that can be probiotic and enrich your diet.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not a simple thing, and it's labour intensive.
It's do-able, but traditionally folks grew mixed crops so that if one failed they still had some back up.
Oats and barley were common. Rye not so much in the UK for some reason.

Barley is excellent, makes beremeal. Much used for bannocks.

Modern wheat will grow well here, but it needs sun. Corn is now available that will grow in our climate too.

Honestly? can you eat spuds ? 'cos spuds are easy to grow, they're good food, they store well too.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Rice does not grow well here, and it's a hard option.

Oats do grow well, but oats need an awful lot of processsing before you can actually eat them.
They have multiple layers of skins that need to be removed. Traditionally that is done by heating the oats and they fluff up and then they can be winnowed.
The subsequent grain is called the groat.
It's still a hard grain to deal with. You can break it, you can grind it, you can steam and press it into flakes, and you can make sowans and the like too....and that can be probiotic and enrich your diet.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not a simple thing, and it's labour intensive.
It's do-able, but traditionally folks grew mixed crops so that if one failed they still had some back up.
Oats and barley were common. Rye not so much in the UK for some reason.

Barley is excellent, makes beremeal. Much used for bannocks.

Modern wheat will grow well here, but it needs sun. Corn is now available that will grow in our climate too.

Honestly? can you eat spuds ? 'cos spuds are easy to grow, they're good food, they store well too.

Thanks.

Well I am not hard set on oats. I actually had got a bit tired of them recently and was buying a range of alternative ones and there were quite a lot of different grains that I liked such as toasted wheat flakes. Can't recall others.

So if there are easier suggestions I would be open to them.

What was the traditional breakfast of small holders in times of yore? I suppose being vegan will probably rule out what they did most times as I imagine much would be eggs or meats or dairy and such?

Yea spuds I could eat. I generally find them boring. Maybe I will have to learn to like them. Due to their bland base flavor I generally only like them cooked in lavish amounts of fat. I love my chips now and then but every day probably not great! Lots of other root veges of a similar vein though aren't there like sweet potato and other tubers?

Would those require much modification, if any, of the clayey poorly draining soil? As an example of how it is I dug up what was on the day dryish soil a few feet across to see what it was like under the grass. No visible wetness on what I thought was the drier part which gets the most sun. I came to look at it the next day and pools of liquid were sitting in the recess where the mud is.

Perhaps a case of modifying my diet to fit the terrain. No stranger to drastic diet changes over the years having gradually moved to a vegan diet so could perhaps be a generally effortless shift.

What about fruits? I am a huge fruit bat and from what I have read it would take like a decade to get fruit trees producing any substantial fruits. I don't know how I would live without those.

So the 3 areas I think are:
-breakfast in whatever form, preferably some kind of grain suited to our climate
-staple savoury carbs which seem easiest in the form of root veges?
-fruit

-general vegetables to fill out the above diet are very well documented for how to grow them.

Just found a name John Jeavons who appears to be a pioneer in this area of how to feed a person fully for a year on a vegetarian diet on a modest space of land. Seems to be from america though so not sure how much would translate to our british climate but shall investigate further.

Another find, uk based: https://bytherfarm.com/grow-for-self-sufficiency/

 

[Toddy]

Raised beds, lazy beds (traditional and anything but lazy to make, but it makes a raised bed that crops will grow in even in poor lands). Small patches in sunny spots were scattered around croft lands in the past.
Dug with a foot plough, the cas-chrom, they were the patches that got whatever good organic feed that folks could find, from seaweed to the midden, it's where they enriched their ground. Even the old thatching off the roofs went into them.
Now folks talk of things like Hugel kulture....raised beds on the coarsest of stuff at their base. So long as it's organic slowly it'll break down and feed your crops.

If you like your potatoes fried, then you'll do fine with them roasted. Just lightly grease the bottom of a cast iron pot and pop that into the embers of your campfire with sliced open spuds inside....they'll slowly roast and brown. Mind and seal the pot well, you can do them spuds inside tinfoil if your prefer them like that. Limits the sheer amount of grease, iimmc ?
Boiled and mashed, add some flour, maybe an egg, season it well and pat into palm sized flat breads. Cook in a dry frying pan or on a girdle and they make potato scones. Good food, easy made and goes with a lot of things....works with gluten free flour too if necessary.

Sweet potatoes don't seem to do well in our cold wet ground. Older things like Jerusalem artichokes or skirret can, but it's very site dependant.

You can make short willow hurdles to frame your raised bed and just stuff them with every bit of straw, leaf little and scraped up whatever that you can. Spuds will grow in that.
British Red sent me Oca to try one year, I got brilliant crops of that in pots. Kind of surprised everyone because I'm further north and it's cold and wet and I live surrounded by gable ends and forest, so never full sunlight for the day. Looong growing season to get this size here though.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Raised beds, lazy beds (traditional and anything but lazy to make, but it makes a raised bed that crops will grow in even in poor lands). Small patches in sunny spots were scattered around croft lands in the past.
Dug with a foot plough, the cas-chrom, they were the patches that got whatever good organic feed that folks could find, from seaweed to the midden, it's where they enriched their ground. Even the old thatching off the roofs went into them.
Now folks talk of things like Hugel kulture....raised beds on the coarsest of stuff at their base. So long as it's organic slowly it'll break down and feed your crops.

If you like your potatoes fried, then you'll do fine with them roasted. Just lightly grease the bottom of a cast iron pot and pop that into the embers of your campfire with sliced open spuds inside....they'll slowly roast and brown. Mind and seal the pot well, you can do them spuds inside tinfoil if your prefer them like that. Limits the sheer amount of grease, iimmc ?
Boiled and mashed, add some flour, maybe an egg, season it well and pat into palm sized flat breads. Cook in a dry frying pan or on a girdle and they make potato scones. Good food, easy made and goes with a lot of things....works with gluten free flour too if necessary.

Sweet potatoes don't seem to do well in our cold wet ground. Older things like Jerusalem artichokes or skirret can, but it's very site dependant.

You can make short willow hurdles to frame your raised bed and just stuff them with every bit of straw, leaf little and scraped up whatever that you can. Spuds will grow in that.
British Red sent me Oca to try one year, I got brilliant crops of that in pots. Kind of surprised everyone because I'm further north and it's cold and wet and I live surrounded by gable ends and forest, so never full sunlight for the day. Looong growing season to get this size here though.

View attachment 92292

Thanks again!

Ah I am well familiar with making raised beds! Did that a lot when volunteering. It was also on a slope and was never that interested to ask why we did that. So that is their purpose? To allow drainage in otherwise poorly draining soil?

Where I was volunteering we would to three sided ones on the slope of the hill. Seems it would be the same here which is also sloped, though slightly less steeply.

Ok well if the land is poor and making use of everything at one's disposal then humanure is a valuable resource to dump right in there no? If I am the only one eating it then it is my own risk and if I can't be bothered to wait a year can I not just chuck it in there 'raw' mixed with some of the existing soil and it will mature right there with the crops in it?

There is a long history of that already isn't there in british culture? They took the night soil and used it right on the crops. Granted diseases were also rife then too but as long as I wash my hands thoroughly then shouldn't be any different than washing one's hands after doing their business no?

Having managed it a bit chucking it on an all in one compost pile I have not noticed a smell once it is mixed with leaves or other debris after a few days.

I did a 'trench compost' the other day after a month's worth of humanure and food waste formed a fair pile and wanting it out of the way of the rodents and just generally would prefer not see that literal pile of crap all the time. Didn't notice a smell when moving and burying it and just plonked a couple of willows right on top.

Could do the same for veges no? If they are going to be boiled then there shouldn't be a problem with contamination? Likewise how I sterilize water when used from the stream to cook.

 

[Toddy]

I wouldn't.
I really wouldn't.
I'm an archaeologist. We know the harm that muddling the midden and the wells did to totally create health hazards. Too many people died young from diseases we know were self inflicted. Most babies born never saw their first birthday, and half of those who survived didn't see their fifth.
Filth is filth.

Humanure is fine if well rotted down, if kept from seeping into water courses. But it needs an awful lot of care to do it safely and healthily.

Rot it down until any pathogen is totally gone and use it to feed your trees, not your dinner.

 

[Glow_worm]

I do wonder if this thread is serious or whether you're having a laugh with us. You've gone from the verge of planting up every last space with willow a few posts ago, to using a couple of acres of bog to grow all your own food which you'll defecate over?

You stated at the start of the thread you had 2+ years experience of growing vegetables, if this is correct you'll have some idea of the colossal input required to begin with bare ground, then the ongoing investment every year. Really not something to be considering on a whim, unless it's a huge passion which you're willing to dedicate most of your time to. Example- I've grown the vast majority of my own veg in the past to supplement purchased meat, fish, dairy and grains- I'd say it was an investment of 500+ hours each year on long-established fertile ground to cover a fraction of my diet.


If you are serious, could I also suggest you download the free 'Humanure Handbook', a Permaculture classic. Read it and understand it regards safe aerobic hot composting . Your land is boggy, if you are burying your excrement (anerobic, it will take potentially years to decompose) close to watercourses you will be polluting them. If this is discovered and traced back to you, there can be big trouble with the authorities. You mention early in the thread you want to impress locals- giving them the impression you've bought a piece of land because you live in a van and need somewhere to offload your faeces isn't going to go down well.

 

[GreyCat]

I do wonder if this thread is serious or whether you're having a laugh with us. You've gone from the verge of planting up every last space with willow a few posts ago, to using a couple of acres of bog to grow all your own food which you'll defecate over?

You stated at the start of the thread you had 2+ years experience of growing vegetables, if this is correct you'll have some idea of the colossal input required to begin with bare ground, then the ongoing investment every year. Really not something to be considering on a whim, unless it's a huge passion which you're willing to dedicate most of your time to. Example- I've grown the vast majority of my own veg in the past to supplement purchased meat, fish, dairy and grains- I'd say it was an investment of 500+ hours each year on long-established fertile ground to cover a fraction of my diet.


If you are serious, could I also suggest you download the free 'Humanure Handbook', a Permaculture classic. Read it and understand it regards safe aerobic hot composting . Your land is boggy, if you are burying your excrement (anerobic, it will take potentially years to decompose) close to watercourses you will be polluting them. If this is discovered and traced back to you, there can be big trouble with the authorities. You mention early in the thread you want to impress locals- giving them the impression you've bought a piece of land because you live in a van and need somewhere to offload your faeces isn't going to go down well.

I agree with the above. The "humanure handbook" is a must if you want to use human waste as a fertilizer. There's also another book on compostign toilets but I cannot remember the title at the moment, I will need to dig out the book. But note that composting toilets use a "soak" for the solid waste to get the balance of woody-green right for aerobic composting. Sawdust or DRY earth was traditional, but coir is easier to obtain commercially and handles will.

I'm sure we also started out this whole thing talking about crops and being self sufficient in food.... and ended up at willow.....

As a vegan, you're a bit out of luck with growing your own food in Wales. Traditional "crops" would be cattle.... and pigs.... Just look at the Celtic legends- cattle raiding and pigs feature very strongly. Milk, cheese, butter, rye bread, oats, pork/ham, leeks/alliums would be staples, with "herbs" (we would say green veg), fruit/nuts, honey- all in season.

Fish was important too- Sewin was very traditional in Carmarthenshire (fished from coracles) and gathering cockles and laverbread in the Gower goes back a fair way. Cockels, laverbread (rolled in oattmeal) and bacon all fried together was a traditional Swansea breakfast.

In wetter parts of Europe (and no doubt UK), peasants ate rye bread (or barley and rye bread). Rye will grow in wetter conditions, but also gets Ergot so needs knowledgable growing and use. It works best in a Sourdough loaf.

Lots of types of "oatcake" all over UK. Staffordshire/Derbyshire oatcakes are more like pancakes (no eggs though) and would be filled with something- cheese for example. Usully made with a mix of oatmeal and wheat flour, but do work with just oatmeal.

Potatoes came much later and became the staple in the wetter half of the British isles- although even then you can have serious problems in a bad blight year. Going north in UK, you have oats and peas- pease pudding is a traditional Geordie dish (usually made with the water from cooking ham or a pig foot, and some ham added). There's Carlin peas in the NW ("parched peas" i.e. carlin peas in vinegar is a Lancashire dish), and "field beans" (fava beans) were another staple. They will grow in a range of conditions, and can be used as an overwinter greeen mulch.

If you look on Hedemedod's website you will see not only what they grow in UK, but also note whereabouts they grow it.

GC