Update- Carrying of knives

[wanderingblade]

The bank of England has announced that its to start printing money and we are "concerned about knife law" . Sun readers are concerned about whether the 13 yr old is really the father of the child by a 15 yr old.

Whereas I'm concerned that the parents reaction is to hire Max Clifford! But I digress........

We re going to end up like bleeding Zimbabwe if we are not careful, the knife legislation could end being a good thing, the last thing you want is loadsa scrotes everywhere with knives trying to nick your new Nike trainers and your shopping when you come out of Sainsburys. Has anyone considered this could be the reason why all of a sudden its at the forefront of policy decision making?

That statement can only be of any value when read out loud in the style of Alf Garnett.

 

[BigShot]

Bogman... 3 words.

UP THE REVOLUTION!
Haha.

I thought about Canada - I'd love to live there. The only issues are family (I like mine a lot and Canada is a touch too far for my liking) and my grilfriend, who would like to be within a couple of hours of family (hers or mine) which rules out most of the places I really want to live. At a push I could get to Scotland, the only other choices are countryside England or Wales and the South East or Ireland (Republic). I could go without her, but I don't think I'd like to - I'm kinda fond of her y'see.
One of those options means putting up with the nonsense our government keeps spewing forth, the other means getting even further into Europe (though Ireland's NO vote on Lisbon Treaty is encouraging, maybe a return to "Irish Ways and Irish laws"? One can only hope.)

Pity.

 

[neil draycott]

it would appear to me that the goverment will only be happy when all of us are at home shopping on the internet and knitting never leaving the house.this would allow them to meet all of their rediculous targets in regards to safety crime pollution and the general well being of the do gooders without actually doing anything.this would allow them to continue and claim massive expenses for not actually doing anything othr than making us all house bound criminals.

sorry my wife has just popinted out how sharp knitting needles are perhaps we should all take up plastecine modelling with cotton buds that way we will all live forever and meet their health targets as well.

conspiracy theory or what..............

 

[Chinkapin]

Hey, never mind going to Canada (too cold)! Never mind filling out all that troublesome paperwork for legal immigration! Just come on over to the U.S.! I'm sure they will give you amnesty right away! Half the people here can't speak English, so you got a "leg up" there! Of course, you got to quit using expressions like "moots" and "scrotes" or NO ONE will know what the hell you are talking about!

 

[wistuart]

I do genuingly believe there is a difference between locked up in the boot of my car than hanging from my belt and going into a town centre shop.

But is there really? The case I refered to was one of a law-abiding individual, with no intention of causing any bother, getting caught out because it was his misfortune that the police officers in question chose not to exercise the reasonable discretion that is usually expected of them. Should we really expect tradesmen to have to frisk themselves every time they step off site?

Then there's this case of the gardener who was arrested for having a scythe and other such implements in his car boot whilst on his way to a job. Granted the case was dropped at the very last minute and the judge was highly critical of the CPS but the man was still put through a lot of undue grief because officers failed to exercise common sense and reasonable discretion:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...to-court-for-carrying-work-scythe-in-van.html

How about this quite interesting case of 2 men arrested, charged and convicted for being in posession of a knife that one of them used legimately in the course of work from which he was returning. The high court ultimately found in their favour and quashed the convictions but the fact is they had to go to appeal to get a fair result. Now, I find this one interesting because it is just the kind of situation that we could potentially find ourselves in. Imagine - you're on your way to a moot with a buddy who notices an interesting implement in your pack and takes it out for a quick look. A bit foolish given the current paranoid state of our society but a completely innocent and easy-to-imagine-happening scenario. Next thing you know you're huckled by the transport police and have to endure months of anguish and legal process.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/616_617_99.html

And what may be interpreted as naivety, is far from it, it's a judgement call.

The naivety I was referring to was that of assuming that the police always act in a reasonable manner and that the justice system always does the sensible thing when it comes to ourselves. Most of the time this is true, but certainly not always. I would love to see us return to an age when responsible, law-abiding adults are actually treated as such but until then I think we need to exercise a degree of caution.

What sort of judgement were the police using when they confiscated this pensioner's walking stick as an offensive weapon? :

http://www.esnews.co.uk/?p=1158

 

[BigShot]

Haha - same problems with the Land of the "Free" too.
Distance from family mainly.

I believe the US is a bit more welcoming to the Irish than the Brits, so I may be able to take advantage of the other side of my dual nationality...

There's only one thing (in political terms) that makes the US better than the UK... That scrap of paper with some old fashioned language and ornate lettering.
The one with the words WE THE PEOPLE at the top.

It seems a minor inconvenience at the moment, but it's a HUGE spanner in the works compared to the protection from tyrannic abuse we have in the UK - what with us having none at all and all that.

Then there's the whole wilderness thing - which is a definite plus.


Oh and truth be told... I've got no idea what the word "moot" means either! Scrote is clear enough (and I even know a 'merican who uses it too) but still.


"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Yea, I'm kinda keen on the American Dream.

 

[w00dsmoke]

I'm certainly not worried at all. I'm quite happy to do as I have always done and act responsibly...if it goes pear shaped I'll be in touch. This is fascinating though, a really good debate to have.

 

[wistuart]

Barney...
I'm concerned about scumbag politicians, journalists, editors and spineless letter-writers calling for my freedoms to be curtailed when everyone with any sense of history and reality knows it won't make a blind bit of difference except to further tighten the grip the legislature has on the law abiding public.
This goes for the ID/Database state, knife laws, gun laws, taxation, carbon (the whole lightbulb ban farce and much more besides), hunting bans, the whole "terrorism" bogeyman and so on.

There's an election just around the corner. I don't suppose you fancy running for PM?

 

[Grooveski]

Grooveski - pretty much what I'd expect to hear, I'd hazard a guess they come into the "decent coppers" category though - they are the ones I've got no worries about being dragged in by.

I should add, I got stopped by a traffic cop the other day, no bother at all, didn't search me, ask my details or anything. Once he saw the 50 somethings I was giving a lift to (taking them home from the pub, I was stone cold sober) he probably figured I wasn't the boy racer/thief type despite being relatively young, looking younger and driving a fairly new car.
Good cop
It wasn't until I was pulling away again that I remembered the pocket knife I had on me, I don't imagine I'd have had any bother about it, but still - I could easilly have found out how things work the hard way.

Aye, they're nice enough guys. A seargent, a DI and a traffic cop so a fair representation though and while I'll admit there are bampot cops out there I think it mostly comes about from the situations they're in. If they're not put into a situation they're mostly just folk.

I was wrong earlier about not being pulled and searched. Was stopped on the main road outside the flat a couple of years ago and asked what was in a case(a takedown bow but it's a gun case I just liked the look of and cut some foam for) so I showed them.
There was a multitool and a 7" bowie knife in the case too but they weren't mentioned. Nothing was really, that's why I'd forgotton it. Just a guy taking a case up the stairs from the car, one of them commented that his brother was into archery.
Had either of them got wierd I'd take my chances with the desk seargent at the station. Not sure which I'd prefer, it'd be Pitt St with it's suits and all-prevailing air of resentment towards the smoking ban or Maryhill Road who see a damn sight worse than the likes of me.

I know you've mentioned before that things are rough round your way but I'd take the manc-weegie pepsi challenge anyday. I served my time in an east-end blacksmith shop with youths hustling through the fence to "knock us up a chib".
I'm a sheep and I know it, I'm no danger to anyone but myself. Similarly the police know that there are sheep stoating around who are going to be carrying all sorts of unsheepish things for a good reason. When the two come together it shouldn't be a problem. About your age, that I can fully understand. It's not like sheep grow up from lambs - we grow up from wolves. Older folk don't hang around outside a workshop hustling chibs and don't appear to be quite as prone to knifing each other either.

 

[Barney]

Barney...
...please establish a link between knife law and a reduction in the number of criminals carrying knives. (You know, the ones who already ignore all the relevant laws about theft/robbery, violence and so on)

Hi Bigshot

I reckon the potential for the new knife laws to modify the behaviour of EXISTING die hard criminals is not the real reason for the laws in the first place, a pleasant bye product of the guidelines however is a certain fact that no cautions will be issued. Although a percentage of the criminals may have some capacity left to absorb information relayed to them and modify there behaviour accordingly. How big a percentage I would not like to attempt to quantify having neither the skills to do so or the inclination.
We, Great Britain, seem to be in the grip of a particularly nasty cancer that is spreading through our youth where its "cool" too belong in a gang and "cool" to carry a knife. The propensity for young people to be influenced by those around them is long recognised by sociologists and and many other groups who deal with them, PEER PRESSURE. Many people are gullible, greedy, easily led fools and they will believe most things presented to them. If advertising did not work there would not be advertisements. The small percentage of rot on the streets, Invariably they are the bullies and so called hard cases, have an influence on the other young people around them that is disproportionate to that of society as a whole. An otherwise well behaved young person may well be affected so significantly by these "wrong uns" that they themselves become unconcerned of the consequences of their actions due to the laws lack of "teeth" and potentially become criminals and knife wielding thugs themselves far easier than may otherwise have happened if stringent control and enforcement was in place.

Some bright spark appears to have identified that the trend is exponential and that the results of doing nothing are very dire indeed for young people specifically and society in general. The guidelines, as about to be introduced, will cause those individuals not already totally engrossed in the culture to at least hear an alternative viewpoint from those criminals in the gang/peer group who at the moment have it all there own way, consequence wise.(caution - so what). This can only be a good thing.

The measures will seem not to work as drastically as some would like, those already influenced may carry the afflictions their whole life, of course some will grow out of it as they would without any measures taking place at all.

The population I am sure would like to see a whole sale reversal of the climb up the exponential curve of knife abuse and its associated aspects, but this is an entirely unrealistic expectation, when this does not happen there will of course be cries of "what a waste of time the measures did not work".

As examples of situation where a reversal of the exponential trend of the sort that we would all like see, can only occur in very extraordinary circumstances indeed.

Think Vaccinations- Measles(topical example) was, at one time at the peak of its exponential curve, subjected to a process where EVERYONE was vaccinated and the infection could therefore not exist at all amongst a population so treated. Knifes and their misuse are a bit more complicated, for reasons that should be obvious.

An example of a partial OBVIOUSLY quantifiable success would be a in a situation like car theft where by the manufacturers used technology to make theft very difficult for casual criminals, The determined thief is still stealing but the results appear mistakenly to be due entirely to cause and effect when in fact the rate of progression has been temporarily reversed.

So there we have just two instances where Physical barriers appear to have had noticeable permanent effect. This scenario would also work with something like cigarettes, If sale was banned then within a short time no one could smoke, the smoker just could not save some for next year and continue. Can you see the problem with a complete knife ban? subsequently the attempt to change thought processes where free will is at play can and will never have the result that we want, indeed hope for (history has shown that things like bans don't work, Right?)

Any restrictions WILL work(whether to the degree we would like or not is another matter)and will have an effect on the existing miscreants and more profound effect in that it will reduce the number of future potential stabbings and save lives, if there are ten more knife related murders next year doesn't mean its not worked.

 

[BigShot]

wistuart...
...I can't think of anything I'd like to do less than work in politics...
...some would say that makes me perfectly suited to the job!
That said, if there was a chance of me getting into power I'd do my best to undo all the crap we're caught up in and make the place genuinely free. I'd need a majority of like mindeds in there with me to actually vote through the changes though. Hardly likely! Haha.
In fact - I'd probably go the way of Kennedy and get myself shot by annoying all the wrong people (and that's exactly what I'd be doing).

The alternative is the "benevolent and temporary dictatorship" route. Take complete power, straighten things out and then let go as I'd sooner be trying to hurt myself on a snowboard or cut myself whittling or dodging icebergs in the Arctic Ocean on a modest little yacht. Haha.

 

[BigShot]

Grooveski - maybe we were wrong about custom knives for chibbing? Haha.

As I've said before, I've got no problem with cops doing their job, pulling me over, questioning me, whatever. It all helps make society safer. I do have problems with "unreasonable searches" to use the American parlance and with "bad cops" - but that's a different issue and one I don't want to go into now.

Interesting one about the bow case incident. I wonder how that bowie would go down in today's climate. Could have been a different story.

 

[BigShot]

Barney...
...smoking bans would be no more effective than the alcohol bans of the past...
ie. COMPLETELY ineffective.

The only thing prohibition will ever (indeed, can ever) achieve is pushing a legitimate product and industry below ground and criminalising the otherwise lawful behaviour of everyday people.

The kind of scocial engineering you seem to be in favour of is a truly disgusting practice...
...essentially everything you're proposing is taking away the freedoms of people who have done no wrong, in order to attempt to take away the temptation for others to do wrong.

It has been illegal to carry a knife as a weapon for YEARS - pretty much since the right to effective self defence was replaced with the utterly nonsensical "reasonable force" rule we are now subjected to (along with a corresponding increas in violent crime - we are now all, legally speaking, soft/easy targets) - and despite that we STILL have people carrying them as weapons.

I actually don't believe the carry of anything as a weapon OF DEFENCE is a porblem, but that's a different discussion - but it's important to make that distinction when arguing this topic as I don't want to make it sound like a moral objection.

The idea here is to stop people NEEDING to carry a weapon, not of ocffence, but of defence (a legally nonsensical term, but the reason most youngsters who carry knives do so - exception made for those who carry them as tools, of course).
That will never be achieved as long as there are people willing to break 4 different laws in the process of criminal behaviour, adding 1 more on won't make a difference.
There will still be people carrying blades, they will still cause fear among those exposed to the threat they present, many of them will arm themselves out of fear (and purely for defence) in spite of any laws against that and the cycle will continue.

To suggest that further legislation can break that cycle is a nonsense.


If our aim is to keep the population unarmed (I'm not going to argue the opposite in this thread, much as I believe that would be a large part of the most effective strategy in controlling the predators in our society) and work largely within the current way of doing things we need to make a number of changes - none of which involve further restrictions on knives, and would, in fact, leave room for some restrictions to be lifted.

1> Stop making excuses for criminals. I don't care how bad their upbringing was it is no excuse. Plenty have a horrible background and don't turn into predators, it's an easy excuse and one that should never be accepted.
2> Punish crimes properly. Use a knife in a crime (as a threat for example) and get an automatic 5 years added to whatever sentence the crime carries.
3> Punish wounding even more harshly. Wound someone with a knife in the course of a crime and have an extra 5 years automatically added on top of clause #2 above.
4> Punish crimes where wounding was the intent even more severely. Let's say 15 years minimum for anyone who sets out to use a knife on someone.

So robbery (currently about 3 years) with a kinfe threat becomes 8 years.
Robbery with a knife where the victim was cut or stabbed after resisting becomes 13 years.

Change the culture which says "you'll only serve about half of it anyway" and have people serve proper time.

No "holiday camp" prisons... they'll be the ones who clean graffiti off walls, pick up digarded needles in parks, clean rubbish out of canals and so on.


Let's start with that and I guarantee we'll see a more significant impact on rates of violent crime than any sort of knife ban will bring.

Then let's take one of the most successful American approaches to solving the gang problem (and no, I don't mean the "kill them all" approach taken years back).
Send in task forces to stop youngsters joining them in the first place, both through education about the negatives and positive encouragement for the alternatives.


That way we can leave the normal folk alone, let them carry their knife without harassment by the crown, and make an effort to solve the problem.


That's the nearest we've got to a chance at success without a radical shake up of the laws regarding defending person, property and home. And that's beyond the scope of this thread and it's better it stays that way.

 

[Barney]

Barney...
...

The kind of scocial engineering you seem to be in favour of is a truly disgusting practice...
...essentially everything you're proposing is taking away the freedoms of people who have done no wrong, in order to attempt to take away the temptation for others to do wrong.



Hey bigshot,

Thats a bit strong innit I was illustrating what is going on now / why they are as they are and what the results are will be.

My solutions would be far more draconian than your namby pamby ones

 

[Grooveski]

Interesting one about the bow case incident. I wonder how that bowie would go down in today's climate. Could have been a different story.

Hope not. One of the scenarios I brought up was going to a meet. Walking out the close with half a dozen bows and two quivers and bumping into them. The car would be close but maybe a block away and would already have the bowie and an axe and bloody flint tipped spears and all sorts of junk...

...that's no bother.

OK, these are folk that know me but they get the idea. The further you take it the easier it gets.

 

[gunslinger]

2> Punish crimes properly. Use a knife in a crime (as a threat for example) and get an automatic 5 years added to whatever sentence the crime carries.
3> Punish wounding even more harshly. Wound someone with a knife in the course of a crime and have an extra 5 years automatically added on top of clause #2 above.
4> Punish crimes where wounding was the intent even more severely. Let's say 15 years minimum for anyone who sets out to use a knife on someone.

So robbery (currently about 3 years) with a kinfe threat becomes 8 years.
Robbery with a knife where the victim was cut or stabbed after resisting becomes 13 years.

Change the culture which says "you'll only serve about half of it anyway" and have people serve proper time.

No "holiday camp" prisons... they'll be the ones who clean graffiti off walls, pick up digarded needles in parks, clean rubbish out of canals and so on.


Let's start with that and I guarantee we'll see a more significant impact on rates of violent crime than any sort of knife ban will bring.

Then let's take one of the most successful American approaches to solving the gang problem (and no, I don't mean the "kill them all" approach taken years back).
Send in task forces to stop youngsters joining them in the first place, both through education about the negatives and positive encouragement for the alternatives.


That way we can leave the normal folk alone, let them carry their knife without harassment by the crown, and make an effort to solve the problem.


That's the nearest we've got to a chance at success without a radical shake up of the laws regarding defending person, property and home. And that's beyond the scope of this thread and it's better it stays that way.

Just adding 5 years will not work unless it is imposed by judges. At risk of upset some people I refer to gun law again.
Currently we have a minimum of five years for illegal possession of a firearm,so you would assume that anyone caught with the aforementioned would be sentenced to a minimum of 5 years.
Errr No. In fact I have yet to see a 5 year sentence for firearm possession.
If I get a spare minute I will find some relevant and recent cases,but I am sure you will all be aware of some.

Proper full sentences in proper prisons.100% agree

Also any interaction with teenagers that can steer them away from gangs ,has to be a good thing. I wish this was already in place as it would have helped some of my daughters friends. While living with her mother in London she was involved in a gang and I was lucky to be able to convince her to start again in Devon with me.
Her gang has since gone on to kill and two of her friends are now dead,both stabbed.

A specialist task force could certainly help some of them,especially as most stay because it is safer to be in the gang than to be outside the gang.

But I digress.
I have carried a pocket knife since I was ten years old and it was normal in the Cubs then we progress onto the Scouts whose motto was be prepared and in those days we carried a sheath knife.
My current knife is a Spyderco pride which is clipped to the inside of my pocket at all
times.
I have been into several courthouses ,and not for criminal reasons. Each time I have put my knife in a tray with ,loose change etc,and no one has turned a hair.
It has always been returned to me on leaving without issue or comment.
Not sure it would be the same now.

Could I live without it? Probably the answer is yes,but it gets used every day,so it is definitely useful.

Aside from all the tool type uses,what about the simple pleasure of sitting somewhere quiet and peeling a lunchtime apple.
You know what I mean,trying to get all the skin in one strip

GS

 

[BigShot]

Hey bigshot,

Thats a bit strong innit I was illustrating what is going on now / why they are as they are and what the results are will be.

Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick. My objections to the current method and so on stand, make it more generic if you prefer, there was nothing personal in my repsonse as such, despite the language directing it at you. Haha.

My solutions would be far more draconian than your namby pamby ones

Sounds fun - do enlighten us.

 

[Chinkapin]

BigShot, When I was a kid if we were asked what our "nationality" was it was understood by all to mean what was the nationality of your ancestors. If you ask a kid today what his nationality is he /she will look at you like you are an idiot and say "American." No one cares what your nationality is. The Irish are no more "in" than anyone else. (except in some predominately Irish communities on the east coast.) Brit stock shot up very high when you went with us into Afghanistan and Iraq . (I realize this is a sore point in the U.K). Americans tend to admire the "different" the "new" the "novel." Everyone will want to be your friend. Hell, come on over!

 

[BigShot]

I've been to America (I've got a few friends/aquaintances in New York, one in Indiana, some in Philly and a few others dotted around the place) and spent a lot of time with Americans over here and when I lived in France. Only met one or two I didn't get on with.

I got a lot of welcome attention from your females, much of it down to the accent - apparently us English are ever so polite and well spoken. I'm sure my ravishing good looks helped too though.

What I meant about the Irish wasn't in with the locals, but immigration. For some reason I had the impression the Irish had an easier time of getting a green card than the Brits. I may be mistaken but for some reason that sounds right somehow. No idea why.

I'll be there to visit a few times in the not too distant future, but can't see myself living there unless things take a real nosedive here and I can persuade a few of the family to jump ship with me.

 

[Chinkapin]

BigShot: I don't think things will get that bad in the U.K. I got more faith in the British people than that. If you only met one or two Americans that you didn't get on with, you're way ahead of me! LOL. I used to go the the soccer games (I know, I know, "football") in Wichita. The coach was a Brit, as well as most of the players, and they were all VERY popular. Well liked by the fans and they were media darlings on the local television sports programs.