Crusader Cook System & Green Heat
- Thread starter SussexRob
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Picked up my greenheat today from the PO. Big sachets (35ml) arent they? Anyway, I tested it out as soon as I got home.
I wanted to try Sainsbury's own brand chicken noodles as they are cheaper than Bachelors super noodles, but a bit smaller. The instructions said boil 250mls. First off I made a little foil tray and added one sachet of greenheat plus packet....
Then I added a measured 250mls of cold tap water to the cup, put in the dry noodles and onto the stove....
Then I sliced in some chorizo....
Put the lid on and left it to boil. It boiled them fine, maybe about 7 minutes or so, I didnt time it as I dont care much how long it takes, I just wanted to know if it works....
If I were to guess, I'd say they were on about 7 or 8 minutes. Tasted fine (not as good as supernoodles though).
Next I thought I'll try a timed boil of exactly 400 mls for coffee, just to see how long it takes. So a fresh greenheat packet and onto the stove with the cup+water+lid. Well, 12 minutes later, it still hadn't reached a bouncing boil and the fuel had all burned off. This was as good as it got....
Hot enough for a decent coffee, but stopped short of a boil.
Conclusion: Fine for small amounts of fluid, I'd say less than 350mls, but one sachet will not be enough to boil 400mls. Convenient, no bottle and the packaging burns away. However, not very calorie effiecient. On my evernew stove, 35 mls of meths would have cooked my noodles and made my coffee - well maybe not quite, but very nearly. This makes the greenheat almost twice as heavy as meths therm for therm, the only advantage being no bottle needed. The packets are also large - compared to esbit tabs. Even two esbit tabs are smaller and lighter and will boil more for longer. The greenheat is convenient for maybe one brew on an afternoon out, but more than that and the benefits of other fuels quickly make it redundant. Just my opinion of course. It might be worth stashing a couple of sachets here and there, but I'll stick with esbit, gas and the higher calorie liquid fuels.
I wanted to try Sainsbury's own brand chicken noodles as they are cheaper than Bachelors super noodles, but a bit smaller. The instructions said boil 250mls. First off I made a little foil tray and added one sachet of greenheat plus packet....
Then I added a measured 250mls of cold tap water to the cup, put in the dry noodles and onto the stove....
Then I sliced in some chorizo....
Put the lid on and left it to boil. It boiled them fine, maybe about 7 minutes or so, I didnt time it as I dont care much how long it takes, I just wanted to know if it works....
If I were to guess, I'd say they were on about 7 or 8 minutes. Tasted fine (not as good as supernoodles though).
Next I thought I'll try a timed boil of exactly 400 mls for coffee, just to see how long it takes. So a fresh greenheat packet and onto the stove with the cup+water+lid. Well, 12 minutes later, it still hadn't reached a bouncing boil and the fuel had all burned off. This was as good as it got....
Hot enough for a decent coffee, but stopped short of a boil.
Conclusion: Fine for small amounts of fluid, I'd say less than 350mls, but one sachet will not be enough to boil 400mls. Convenient, no bottle and the packaging burns away. However, not very calorie effiecient. On my evernew stove, 35 mls of meths would have cooked my noodles and made my coffee - well maybe not quite, but very nearly. This makes the greenheat almost twice as heavy as meths therm for therm, the only advantage being no bottle needed. The packets are also large - compared to esbit tabs. Even two esbit tabs are smaller and lighter and will boil more for longer. The greenheat is convenient for maybe one brew on an afternoon out, but more than that and the benefits of other fuels quickly make it redundant. Just my opinion of course. It might be worth stashing a couple of sachets here and there, but I'll stick with esbit, gas and the higher calorie liquid fuels.
Last edited:
That's pretty much the conclusion that I think was reached in the link in my earlier post. I agree your approximate usage figures, I reckon around 15g of meths will heat a decent meal without getting too technical in the heat exchanger department. One of Richard's super-efficient pots could probably cut that down by at least a third.
Me too. Well, I don't bother with Esbits and gas.
Me too. Well, I don't bother with Esbits and gas.
Ha, fair do. But dont knock gas, it's quick and easy and there are times when only a jetboil will do.
I was curious about the actual weight and size of the GH compared to esbit though. Bear in mind that two esbit tabs will boil more for longer than one GH sachet...
The GH is a physically big packet. Granted, you can scrunch it to fit odd shapes and spaces, but it's still way bigger than 2 esbits. But check this out...
That's not a fix, honestly. I had to weigh my lens cap (14g incidentally) just to be sure the scales weren't stuck.
So GH is bigger, heavier, doesnt boil as much, doesnt boil for as long and it costs more.
Last edited:
That's pretty much the conclusion that I think was reached in the link in my earlier post. I agree your approximate usage figures, I reckon around 15g of meths will heat a decent meal without getting too technical in the heat exchanger department. One of Richard's super-efficient pots could probably cut that down by at least a third.
Me too. Well, I don't bother with Esbits and gas.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOENIX-H...084?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c1b14c05c
They really do work.
Nope, me either. Which is one of the main reasons my troop has all been influenced into buying one. Gone are the days when you need everything for a week on your webbing, however its still nice to carry an emergency brew kit in your patrol pack.
No, I wouldn't knock it, except perhaps for boat use. :yikes:
I have several gas stoves, but I wouldn't take any of them camping unless I was also taking the Jeep. The smallest cylinders I have are still on the heavy side.
No, I wouldn't knock it, except perhaps for boat use. :yikes:
I have several gas stoves, but I wouldn't take any of them camping unless I was also taking the Jeep. The smallest cylinders I have are still on the heavy side.
I think it'd be interesting to do a side by side comparison, of say an optimus crux and an evernew meths burner. If you allowed 280g all in for stove, fuel and related containers, then see which one actually goes the farthest. My scales weigh down to 1g accurately, so I could weigh a gas can before and after a boil to see the difference and calculate exactly how many boils to a 100g can. A syringe for the meths and sorted. It'd be interesting to know exactly what point - in terms of how many boils you need on a trip - that gas becomes more economical than meths - if it ever does?
For example...
Optimus crux ~ 89g
100g can of gas ~ 190g
total = ~ 279g
Evernew alcohol + trivet ~ 60g
Alcohol bottle ~ 20g
200ml Meths = 200g
total =~ 280g
For carrying a gas stove to be more weight efficient, then 100g of lpg would need to boil more than 200ml of meths. On longer camping trips, it might prove lighter to carry the gas, even factoring the additional weight of the empty cannister and stove, or if meths really is the lighter option for more than a 2 day trip?
Last edited:
dont forget the GH does go off i had some in my kit inside a sealed box which didnt get used for over a year as i was gas stove camping the GH left as emergency
it wouldnt light with a ferro rod any more and when lit with a flame struggled to burn
on cost etc you can buy Green heat gel in bigger containers and decant into a dispenser obviously a faff about but is cheaper
ATB
Duncan
it wouldnt light with a ferro rod any more and when lit with a flame struggled to burn
on cost etc you can buy Green heat gel in bigger containers and decant into a dispenser obviously a faff about but is cheaper
ATB
Duncan
But then you loose the convenience factor, which is its only saving grace. True, you dont need a stove, you can just squish some onto a rock and providing you have a stand of some sort, your are good. But with such a comparatively poor calorie to weight ratio, a 46 gram meths stove + meths will still pay for itself in about 2 boils, 3 at most.
Almost all the liquid fuels are a lot less dense than water. Ethanol (meths is mostly ethanol) has a specific gravity of about 0.79, so 200ml will only weigh about 158g.
Ahh, yes. All would equalise on the scales though. If you set your target weight at 280g, then just calculate for as much meths as is required to reach that budget. About 250mls equal 200g then, yes?
I think you'd have to factor a windshield though, as meths stoves are pretty much useless without them. Still only a few grams though.
I suspect, for trips of 1 day or less, esbit is the most efficient option. Where you need up to 15 or so boils, then probably meths wins. For 15-30 boils, it's probably nothing to choose between gas and meths. For >30 boils, probably gas wins and at some point, paraffin/petrol will take over because it's a more calorific fuel than lpg, so even rik's SVEA become the intelligent choice at some point. Though a huge amount depends on what kit you have and what conditions you are in.
Last edited:
yes i was thinking of a small squezy bottle
I used GH as a back up at the smallest carry level ie side pocket ( crusader set with GH ) for me. when zipped to my Bergan I have a Hobo stove set which has a Trangi gas insert as an option and the 12cm billy as a proper cook pot and a small Wok (steel)
if i put the bergan in the car i have a single gas burner with a kettle and a Dutch oven (fire prefered )
just i hadn't been down to a side pouch level for a while Meths wouldn't be an option (tho Hexi / esbit is) as it adds a burner and a fuel bottle there and im happy with my hobo set and 250 gass bottle its not as tho the rest of the kit is an uber light set
as you can see i dont have lots of set ups just one that is modular guess its a military thing tho i dont do the belt order any more
ATB
Duncan
Yes.
Yes again.
We can take a stab at the numbers. Meths gives about 27 MJ/kg. Petrol, paraffin, diesel and AVgas are 44-46 MJ/kg.
A brew with 400ml of water starting at 10 degrees Celsius will need something like 400 g x 4.2 J/g.degC x 90degC = 150kJ which is 3kW for 50 seconds. But that's if you get 100% of the energy from the fuel into the water, which you won't. I reckon on about four minutes to boil that much water on my 3kW Optimus 111B burning four grammes of petrol per minute. So the efficiency is probably in the region of 25%. One reason why Richard's super efficient pot can work so well -- there's a lot of room for manoeuvre.
Anyway, if the stoves all have similar efficiencies (and they won't, things like Trangias which guide the flame around more of the pot with the windshield will be better) but if they do, then at 25% efficiency you'll need something like 16 grammes of petrol or 16*45/27 or about 26 grammes of meths. The more efficient the setups are the better, obviously, but if they're all more efficient then the weight saved per brew when using petrol is less.
With all this hand-waving on numbers the answer's probably nearer to a lemon than is ideal, but let's say something in the ball park of ten grammes per generous brew is saved if you use petrol rather than meths.
If your meths stove weighs 100g and your petrol stove weighs 500g then you need to have 400/10=40 brews before the petrol setup will weigh less than the meths. So your estimates look pretty good, Martyn.
My 111B weighs nearer 1.5kg than 500g so we're up to 140 brews before it makes any sense on weight grounds alone, and my military Mk2 is more like 5kg so I'd have to be cooking for the whole Regiment. But I can use it as a chock when I'm changing the wheels.
Doing the same for gas is left as an exercise for the reader because the lightest (full) gas bottle I have weighs about 6.5kg.
I think Richard is starting to get worried about us gram-weenies.
hehe, loving it.
As you say, the problem with trying to evaluate different fuel types is trying to eliminate the variables. There are just too many. The test I had in mind was to use 3 real world examples of ultralight kit that is both commercially available and very popular. I know you can get custom made meths stoves machined to a nanometre thick from pure unobtanium, costing squillions of quid but it gets a bit sublime. Ruggedness, cost, weight, environment etc all are big factors which influence the choices we make. Possibly to the point of making any kind of evaluation pointless. But I was thinking of using the Optimus Nova as an example of a petrol/paraffin stove, the optimus crux as an example of a gas stove and evernew meths burner, plus trivet, plus foil wind shield. All using the GSI Glacier mug. I think evaluating those stoves, might be more meaningful than evaluating the theory? What do you think?
As you say, the problem with trying to evaluate different fuel types is trying to eliminate the variables. There are just too many. The test I had in mind was to use 3 real world examples of ultralight kit that is both commercially available and very popular. I know you can get custom made meths stoves machined to a nanometre thick from pure unobtanium, costing squillions of quid but it gets a bit sublime. Ruggedness, cost, weight, environment etc all are big factors which influence the choices we make. Possibly to the point of making any kind of evaluation pointless. But I was thinking of using the Optimus Nova as an example of a petrol/paraffin stove, the optimus crux as an example of a gas stove and evernew meths burner, plus trivet, plus foil wind shield. All using the GSI Glacier mug. I think evaluating those stoves, might be more meaningful than evaluating the theory? What do you think?
hehe, loving it.
Sounds spot on to me. By the way it was my Nova that I weighed for the 500g ballpark figure.
Incidentally my impression is that the Nova isn't quite as powerful as my 111B, so maybe I'll fire it up sitting on the scales and see what sort of fuel rate it comes up with.
I sometimes think it can be all to easy to get caught up in finding the best and most efficient kit, rather than getting out there and enjoying yourself.
Bottom line for me is, find a stove you like and are happy carrying, and use it. For me currently it's the crusader for a brew kit or short one man trips with rat packs, if I want to cook more that that I'll light a fire. Longer trips I'll take a trangia.
Other people will like other kit, fair do's, it's all subjective at the end of the day.
Out of interest, does esbit light with a fire steel?
Bottom line for me is, find a stove you like and are happy carrying, and use it. For me currently it's the crusader for a brew kit or short one man trips with rat packs, if I want to cook more that that I'll light a fire. Longer trips I'll take a trangia.
Other people will like other kit, fair do's, it's all subjective at the end of the day.
Out of interest, does esbit light with a fire steel?
SimonM
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Not sure about esbit, but hexy will. You just have to scrape it a little to produce a fine powder, which takes a spark nicely.
Simon
Similar threads
