Update- Carrying of knives

[Minotaur]

What I meant about the Irish wasn't in with the locals, but immigration. For some reason I had the impression the Irish had an easier time of getting a green card than the Brits.

Could be a language thing. Think the UK is at the bottom for second languages, and Ireland is at the top, or near it. My cousin was offered a job out of Uni, because of her language ability.

Also do the US do a sponsor thing, because there has to be more Irish with connections there.

Plus some big US companies are based in Ireland, which would also help in getting a Green card.

 

[BigShot]

Makes sense Minotaur.
Cheers for that.

I've already got a bit of French (not great though - broken but general conversational level) which could do with work and I'm about to start learning Irish and Swedish. I could do with kick starting my Spanish again - a while back I had enough Spanish to stop a drunk Englishman being beaen up by an angry mob so it can't have been that bad.

 

[Minotaur]

Makes sense Minotaur.
Cheers for that.

I've already got a bit of French (not great though - broken but general conversational level) which could do with work and I'm about to start learning Irish and Swedish. I could do with kick starting my Spanish again - a while back I had enough Spanish to stop a drunk Englishman being beaen up by an angry mob so it can't have been that bad.

The theory is that the Irish find it easier to learn more languages, because they learn Gaelic first. Basically, they think if you know the root language, you should understand how the down the line languages work straight off.

They do also learn other languages a lot earlier than we do in the UK as well, which helps. It is why the French tend to speak English, they learn it earlier, than we learn French.

The problem languages tend to be the ones that stand on their own. Which is why English gives people so much of a problem.

 

[BigShot]

I've always understood it that English was difficult because it's such a horribly inconsistent language, and somewhat of a mongrel too.

It's not a language isolate, in fact it shares the same root as German, Frisian, Iclandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and Dutch.
The problem with English is the huge influence of the Celtic languages, and the post-germanic influence of the scandinavian languages, french and latin after all our invasions/settlements.

I think the main reason the English are so low on the table of polylinguism (a real word? i like it anyway) is the fact we start learning a second language so late.
Add to that the languages are almost always learned academically (as in, GCSE, A-Level, Degree) without any real-world use and you see why we're so uselsess.

I've been in France with someone who had a degree in French and they couldn't understand a thing - the difference? I hadn't studied the language since I dropped it for GCSE (clash with another subject) at 14 and I was then 20 - but lived and worked in France for about 7 months.
I learned all the French I now have by living in France.
The big difference is when you learn a language academically you don't really learn to hear it properly. Enough to pass exams, yes, but you're not tuned into it the way someone who learns it by immersion would be, or the way a non-native speaker learns English through exposure or immersion.
Most foreign students of English actually have some interaction with the language be it through pop culture (music, movies), tourism or immigrants (in either direction).


As for the Irish learning Gaelic first...
...unless they go to a gaelscoil, live in a gaeltacht or some from a home where gaelic is the first language - most learn English first and learn Gaelic as a second (and academic) language.
Thankfully Gaelic is becoming more "cool" at the moment so it's becoming far more widely spoken.
I've got a lot of family in Ireland, and a few of them are native speakers - they use Gaelic over English whenever they are with their friends and use both at home.

I love languages - which reminds me - I must crack on with the Irish course I'm doing at the moment!

 

[Doc]

I don't carry anything if I'm out in town for the night or off to a gig, carry a penknife for general bimbling and carry anything I like if I'm away camping.

That is exactly what I do. I think it is good advice.

In wild country, with a canoe full of kit, it seems pefectly natural to have a sheath knife on the belt, and it is also reassuring in case of rope entanglement. But when I get back to the trailhead/jumping off point, the first thing I do is put the knife in the rucksack.

For general 'just in case' use, country walks etc, I favour a Victorinox Farmer or a Schrade Old Timer Stockman - both are very traditional non threatening pocket knives. I know you can get UK legal Spydercos etc but I do believe Joe Public sees that type of knife as a weapon.

 

[Minotaur]

I've always understood it that English was difficult because it's such a horribly inconsistent language, and somewhat of a mongrel too.

English is old english meets Norse, then forced into French, plus a lot of Latin, then mix for 900 years. There is one place in the world that still speaks what they consider the root of English. Also add words from any language that an English person has ever had contact with.

It's not a language isolate, in fact it shares the same root as German, Frisian, Iclandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and Dutch.

I think you are mixing two root languages, or maybe three.

I am not sure what the root language is for German, Danish, or Dutch. I have a feeling they are more Celtic than you think. Also they own a lot to Russian.

The problem with English is the huge influence of the Celtic languages, and the post-germanic influence of the scandinavian languages, french and latin after all our invasions/settlements.

English as we know it started after 1066. It is the effect the Anglo-Saxon language, had on French, without actual French to back it up. Then you have the language of the scholars, Latin.

I think the main reason the English are so low on the table of polylinguism (a real word? i like it anyway) is the fact we start learning a second language so late.
Add to that the languages are almost always learned academically (as in, GCSE, A-Level, Degree) without any real-world use and you see why we're so uselsess.

Which is why the Irish are so high. Like the Welsh, they go to school, and learn Gaelic. My cousins were learning at least French, German, or Spanish in junior school. I first came to French in senior school.

I've been in France with someone who had a degree in French and they couldn't understand a thing - the difference? I hadn't studied the language since I dropped it for GCSE (clash with another subject) at 14 and I was then 20 - but lived and worked in France for about 7 months.
I learned all the French I now have by living in France.
The big difference is when you learn a language academically you don't really learn to hear it properly. Enough to pass exams, yes, but you're not tuned into it the way someone who learns it by immersion would be, or the way a non-native speaker learns English through exposure or immersion.
Most foreign students of English actually have some interaction with the language be it through pop culture (music, movies), tourism or immigrants (in either direction).

I could never speak French, read it a bit, but speak it no.

As for the Irish learning Gaelic first...
...unless they go to a gaelscoil, live in a gaeltacht or some from a home where gaelic is the first language - most learn English first and learn Gaelic as a second (and academic) language.
Thankfully Gaelic is becoming more "cool" at the moment so it's becoming far more widely spoken.
I've got a lot of family in Ireland, and a few of them are native speakers - they use Gaelic over English whenever they are with their friends and use both at home.

I love languages - which reminds me - I must crack on with the Irish course I'm doing at the moment!

It is taught really early in Ireland, a lot like Welsh, and then they add other languages.

How are you learning Gaelic?

 

[Armleywhite]

That is exactly what I do. I think it is good advice.

In wild country, with a canoe full of kit, it seems pefectly natural to have a sheath knife on the belt, and it is also reassuring in case of rope entanglement. But when I get back to the trailhead/jumping off point, the first thing I do is put the knife in the rucksack.

For general 'just in case' use, country walks etc, I favour a Victorinox Farmer or a Schrade Old Timer Stockman - both are very traditional non threatening pocket knives. I know you can get UK legal Spydercos etc but I do believe Joe Public sees that type of knife as a weapon.

ONLY because the government led press make the public think that way. Just another nail in the coffin of the peoples right to think for themselves.

 

[BigShot]

Minotaur...
...they are all germanic languages - they split very early on but there are still some similarities running through them.
My understanding of it was: in about 200AD Anglo-Frisian splits into Old Frisian and Old English, Old English then becomes Middle English and then eventually Modern English.
Around the same time (200AD) South Germanic split off into what became German, Dutch and Saxon.
Then there's the North Germanic which split into Norse and eventually the modern scandinavian languages.

Add in a lot of cross influence between those various stems and you get the convoluted mongrel language we're using now.

That said I don't study languages, I just learn a few sepcific ones - so I'll defer to those who know more


I started going to Conradh na Gaeilge classes in Manchester a while back but didn't get on with the format too much (on the whole they teach Standard and Ulster dialects side by side and the Ulster dialect was confusing the life out of me) I've still got the textbook (Inis Dom 2) which I glance at from time to time...
...at the moment I'm working my way through Buntús Cainte.
I've only got the first book and CDs at the moment, I called into Gael Linn on College Green when I was passing through Dublin recently and will be getting the 2nd and 3rd books next time I'm there.

Buntús Cainte focusses on spoken Irish (which is really what I'm interested in more than anything else) and has been going for 42 years now. I was told to use that one by a relative who has Gaelic as her first language - I took that as a pretty good indication.

 

[demographic]

I would urge you all to carefully consider your EDC and BOBs / kits in cars.

Looks like that little frosts carving knife that I use to peel oranges and sharpen pencils in my vans going to have to go...

I hope they don't mind the ten or so wood chisels, the stanley knife, the handsaws, the wrecking bar, the hack knife, the plane irons, the drills, the two nail guns that always live in the back of my van and the chainsaw I keep in the back sometimes

 

[Wayland]

Just to add to this debate you might find this thread interesting.

 

[BigShot]

demographic...
...depends where you are.
If you're going to or from work with all that you'll be fine (well - in theory... there was that one guy who was dragged before the court and only then did the CPS admit they didn't have a case - he was a gardener on his way to work)

If you're going anywhere else you could well end up in hot water for all that.
The theory is you should empty the van every time you get back from work - though I believe if the van is on private land things are different.
Silly really but c'est la vie and all that.

I think the distinction between fixed blades and folding is utterly daft though - especially considering they are all as dangerous as eachother if the person holding it is a scumbag/criminal and decides to stick it in someone; and all as safe as eachother in the hands of the 99.9% of the population disinclined to use knives as offensive weapons.

 

[JohnL]

just out of interest, what will those of you who use knives do if there is a blanket ban on carrying them?

 

[BigShot]

Tough call there John.
On one hand I'd like to say I'd keep carrying it regardless...
...but on the other hand getting a criminal conviction would mean I'd have no chance of putting my plans into action and travelling/living further afield as that kind of thing can really screw up visa applications.
I would probably have to stop carrying it as I can't afford the consequences.

It really annoys me to consider the possibility of having my knife taken away (dramatic way of being told to leave it at home) when it will do nothing whatsoever to stop scumbags carrying knives, screwdrivers, chisels and bottles to threaten, stab or cut people with.

I just hope it doesn't go that way.

 

[demographic]

demographic...
...depends where you are.
If you're going to or from work with all that you'll be fine (well - in theory... there was that one guy who was dragged before the court and only then did the CPS admit they didn't have a case - he was a gardener on his way to work)

If you're going anywhere else you could well end up in hot water for all that.
The theory is you should empty the van every time you get back from work - though I believe if the van is on private land things are different.
Silly really but c'est la vie and all that.

I think the distinction between fixed blades and folding is utterly daft though - especially considering they are all as dangerous as eachother if the person holding it is a scumbag/criminal and decides to stick it in someone; and all as safe as eachother in the hands of the 99.9% of the population disinclined to use knives as offensive weapons.

All the gear lives inside my massive toolsafe, theres no way on earth I'm going to empty all that out every night so its always in the van and the vans my only four wheeled transport (the rest is motorbikes).

 

[BigShot]

Hmm - I wonder what the legal view would be with it all in toolsafes. Might be different.

I'm all for the sensible approach (as in, don't empty the van and it be perfectly legal) but relying on sensible would probably get you less than relying on Santa.

Might have to ask a legal-type (knife user/collector too) I chat to and see what he has to say on that one - I'll pass on his comments.

 

[demographic]

Hmm - I wonder what the legal view would be with it all in toolsafes. Might be different.

I'm all for the sensible approach (as in, don't empty the van and it be perfectly legal) but relying on sensible would probably get you less than relying on Santa.

Might have to ask a legal-type (knife user/collector too) I chat to and see what he has to say on that one - I'll pass on his comments.

If they were to start getting snotty about all edged tools in vans, every carpenter (like me) , joiner, builder and even painter in the country wouldn't be able to pay the inordinately high taxes we currently pay so I can't see tham doing that
I assume this is where the discression of the law comes into effect, if I was driving around in a chavved up Nova and 17 years old, worked in an office or factory then it might be more of a worry, but as I'm a carpenter I really struggle with the concept that a judge would do anything other than throw the case out of court as plain stupidity.

 

[Hobbit on a String]

Guys,

Watch out in Scotland,

On the 26th of Feb, i was stopped in the Forests just out of a town called Turriff in Aberdeenshire,

In my pack which was secured and locked away in the side pocket was a Survival Knife, and in my main pack was my GFB, i was hauled in for carrying offensive weapons, even though i was in a wooded area, the reason i was stopped, i was seen in the woods, and the cops wanted to make sure i wasnt a poacher.

The next thing they are asking if i have a knife on me, i said aye i do and it is in my pack out of sight so folks dont get worried,

Well next thing i am cuffed and hauled off to the Police station where my pack was searched, my GFB, Survival knife, shapening stone were all taken from me, then the S@*s charged me with carrying offensive weapons in public.

So now i cant have a knife for doing bushcraft, nor can i have my axe, or any other edged weapon with me,

Basically i am not allowed to have any edged weapon on me, and the have stuffed my bushcrafting up the ****.

Jake Cohen
Scotland

 

[Wayland]

Guys,

Watch out in Scotland,

On the 26th of Feb, i was stopped in the Forests just out of a town called Turriff in Aberdeenshire,

In my pack which was secured and locked away in the side pocket was a Survival Knife, and in my main pack was my GFB, i was hauled in for carrying offensive weapons, even though i was in a wooded area, the reason i was stopped, i was seen in the woods, and the cops wanted to make sure i wasnt a poacher.

The next thing they are asking if i have a knife on me, i said aye i do and it is in my pack out of sight so folks dont get worried,

Well next thing i am cuffed and hauled off to the Police station where my pack was searched, my GFB, Survival knife, shapening stone were all taken from me, then the S@*s charged me with carrying offensive weapons in public.

So now i cant have a knife for doing bushcraft, nor can i have my axe, or any other edged weapon with me,

Basically i am not allowed to have any edged weapon on me, and the have stuffed my bushcrafting up the ****.

Jake Cohen
Scotland

Is this going to court or did you accept a caution?

 

[Minotaur]

Looks like that little frosts carving knife that I use to peel oranges and sharpen pencils in my vans going to have to go...

I hope they don't mind the ten or so wood chisels, the stanley knife, the handsaws, the wrecking bar, the hack knife, the plane irons, the drills, the two nail guns that always live in the back of my van and the chainsaw I keep in the back sometimes

Was going to say, would be amazed if they said anything about a work van.

just out of interest, what will those of you who use knives do if there is a blanket ban on carrying them?

Cannot see them doing a blanket ban. Just to hard to work out.

Minotaur...
...they are all germanic languages - they split very early on but there are still some similarities running through them.

For some reason have it my head that their routes are not Norse. Not sure why.

Then there's the North Germanic which split into Norse and eventually the modern scandinavian languages.

Thinking something along the lines about German, coming from the Celtic, and Russian roots. Know there is something surprising about some of the roots of the modern European languages.

Add in a lot of cross influence between those various stems and you get the convoluted mongrel language we're using now.

English is a true Mongrel. It has two, or maybe even three root languages.

That said I don't study languages, I just learn a few sepcific ones - so I'll defer to those who know more

Me either. The Melvyn Bragg book on English is worth a look, he explains it really well. The TV show is even better, but who knows when it well be repeated.

Buntús Cainte focusses on spoken Irish (which is really what I'm interested in more than anything else) and has been going for 42 years now. I was told to use that one by a relative who has Gaelic as her first language - I took that as a pretty good indication.

Thanks for that, well have to go looking.

Guys,

Watch out in Scotland,

On the 26th of Feb, i was stopped in the Forests just out of a town called Turriff in Aberdeenshire,

In my pack which was secured and locked away in the side pocket was a Survival Knife, and in my main pack was my GFB, i was hauled in for carrying offensive weapons, even though i was in a wooded area, the reason i was stopped, i was seen in the woods, and the cops wanted to make sure i wasnt a poacher.

The next thing they are asking if i have a knife on me, i said aye i do and it is in my pack out of sight so folks dont get worried,

Well next thing i am cuffed and hauled off to the Police station where my pack was searched, my GFB, Survival knife, shapening stone were all taken from me, then the S@*s charged me with carrying offensive weapons in public.

So now i cant have a knife for doing bushcraft, nor can i have my axe, or any other edged weapon with me,

Basically i am not allowed to have any edged weapon on me, and the have stuffed my bushcrafting up the ****.

Jake Cohen
Scotland

With Wayland, unless law different in Scotland, did you take the caution?

 

[BigShot]

That's an almost scary turn of events, Jake.

As Wayland and Minotaur have asked, I'd like to know where it went after that.
Caution or court?

If court I'll be interested to see where it goes, as I understand it the letter of the law is most certainly on your side, but how it will work in practice is beyond me.




Demographic - it's not tools in vans that are a potential problem, but tools in vans when not on your way to or from your place of work (site or workshop). No probs at all when going to work, potential problem when going to Tesco. Y'see?