Update- Carrying of knives

[sapper1]

Okay , stupid question.
In an earlier post it was stated that if I had a filleting knife in my car because I was fishing last week this would be illegal.
Can someone explain why?
If it is illegal in my car in these circumstsnces,then why is it not illegal in my shed.
Surely my car and my shed are my private property?They are not accessible to the public ,this is why they are locked.

 

[wanderingblade]

If it is illegal in my car in these circumstsnces,then why is it not illegal in my shed. Surely my car and my shed are my private property?They are not accessible to the public ,this is why they are locked.

Your car is considered a public place.

 

[sapper1]

Why is my car considered a public place?
Surely if it's locked that shows that only keyholders have access and the general public don't have my keys.
Or is it just another piece of well thought out legislation.
Can anyone point me in the direction where I can read the official legislation or law or whatever it is called that states this,because it should also give the reasoning behind it.
I'm not trying to cause an argument ,I just can't see how my car is considered a public place.If someone can decide this then can they also decide later that my house is a public place .Have I the right to deny the public acces to my propery,If I deny acces to the public then surely it is no longer a public place.
Really can't get my head around this.It's mine ,i've paid for it , i refuse public access and yet I'm told it's a public place and I have no choice in the matter.
If someone is in my car trying to steal it does this mean that as it's a public place I cannot even ask him to leave?

 

[wanderingblade]

I'll have a dig and see if I can find the relevant legislation - certainly my reading of the CJA 1988 implies your car is safe:

CJA 1988 S. 139 " In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise."

But this seems not to be the case going on case law as people have been charged with possession of an offenseive weapon when cars have been searched.

 

[sapper1]

I can see from your explanation that it'seems to be a public place only for the offensive weapons act.I'm happy with this as I was concerned abut this public place bit.
As far as the offensive weapons bit is concerned,I'm not concerned.If I have an offensive weapon in my car it's because it's being taken somwhere.
Unless an item is specified on a list as an offensive weapon then it seems to me that it's more the manner it which it is handled that defines wether it is offensive rather than what it actually is.
For example a claw hammer in a pub at the weekend not good.
A claw hammer in a pub putting up pictures O.K.
Anyway I digress,I'm happier about this public place in my car business now
Thanks Wanderingblade

 

[w00dsmoke]

I think we need to discipline ourselves and work within the law. I carry stuff in the boot of the car nearly all the time. This morning it was a billhook and an opinel. I was out getting some wood for a wee project hence the need. Now if I happen to leave them or any other knife related to my legal hobby/passtime in the boot of my locked car out of site, I doubt any cop would charge me if I could reasonably show that I have a genuine need for them. If they were left next to a first aid kit, outdoor clothes, fishing gear, wellies etc...it's pretty obvious that it's a mistake, however I'm fully aware that they could but I reckon that a pf would throw the case out if they felt that the cop was being over zelous and there was no other dodgy circumstances surrounding this context but then again they might not. It's the chance we take.

 

[BigShot]

A point I think is worth making...
...we would be wise not to draw too clear a distinction between knives costing hundreds of pounds and cheaper ones.
It would be just as bad (possibly evn worse) if those of us who have top flight knives (be they an F1, a Woodlore, or something made my any of the myriad cutlers we get our sharps from) were allowed to carry them, and others who had the exact same use, justification and motivation for carrying theirs were denied that right because they use a Frost's knife that only cost them £10.

The price isn't really the issue here.
I think it should be an issue when it comes to the recent Trading Standards actions against or discussion with (depends on your point of view) custom cutlers in the Sheffield area (and others). But when it comes to the knives we carry on a daily basis it's a different matter.



Chinkapin - I couldn't agree more.
I really do like the American view of these matters.
Maybe some day we'll play catch-up over here (ha! right!)



Sapper - if you want to read all the specifics you'll have to get into reading case law.
If you just read the law as it is written and followed it both to the letter, and in the spirit it was written, you would actually be guilty of a crime.

For example, the sub 3" non-locking folder thing is not in the statute, but is as a result of case law. Under the original wording (and intent) there was nothing to make locking folders illegal for "just because" carry.

As for the car point, in part it's just "well thought out legislation" - in part it is a symptom of a country that treats everyone as if they are a criminal waiting to happen.

If you have a filleting knife in your car and you're not going to or from fishing, it could (would?) be seen as if you had it in the car for other reasons.
Think of the stories of people being stabbed in "road rage" incidents - that's the sort of thing they probably had in mind. The fact most of that is with screwdrivers and kitchen knives is neither here nor there.

As I understand it, your car is a public place because it is in public. If you're out and about with your knife in a backpack, it's still in public. Ditto with a knife in your car. If you're out and about with a knife, on your person, in a bag or in your car, you're in public with a knife.

I'm not sure if that's the logic behind it, but it makes sense and, I think, makes the whole thing a touch easier to understand.

Not that I think it is sensible - it should be clear from my other posts that I don't - but there you have it.

 

[BigShot]

Woodsmoke - I wouldn't be so sure.
See the recent case of the gardener who got all the way to standing in the dock before the case was thrown out when the CPS presented no evidence.

He had more "good reason" than most of us as his was a specific defence for work reasons, our defence is under the much more general under the previous section and more difficult to establish.

That said, my understanding is that if they were locked in the boot and you were NOT on your way to or from somewhere you needed them (no "good reason" - in legal terms - not sensible terms) and for some reason you were pulled over and the car was searched you'd likely be in a spot of bother unless the officer in question was blessed with an overabundance of common sense and character judgement.

 

[sapper1]

A country that treats everyone as if they are a criminal waiting to happen.

I tend to agree, it's seems as though ,if you aren't doing something wrong they'll pass a law to ensure that you are.
Still I wouldn't like to live anywhere else.In this country we don't have enough police officers to uphold the law now,They won't be trekking 5 miles into the woods just to see if I have a sharp knife with me or if I've done anything else wrong.

 

[gunslinger]

Why is my car considered a public place?
Surely if it's locked that shows that only keyholders have access and the general public don't have my keys.
Or is it just another piece of well thought out legislation.
Can anyone point me in the direction where I can read the official legislation or law or whatever it is called that states this,because it should also give the reasoning behind it.
I'm not trying to cause an argument ,I just can't see how my car is considered a public place.If someone can decide this then can they also decide later that my house is a public place .Have I the right to deny the public acces to my propery,If I deny acces to the public then surely it is no longer a public place.
Really can't get my head around this.It's mine ,i've paid for it , i refuse public access and yet I'm told it's a public place and I have no choice in the matter.
If someone is in my car trying to steal it does this mean that as it's a public place I cannot even ask him to leave?

I too would like to find the answer to this one.
Wanderingblade# I would still like to find the legislation and if someone can point me in the right direction I will have a search. The problem I have is unless it is written in law the neither the police on anyone else for that matter can decide that your locked vehicle is a public place.

W00dsmoke # "it's pretty obvious that it's a mistake, however I'm fully aware that they could but I reckon that a pf would throw the case out if they felt that the cop was being over zelous and there was no other dodgy circumstances surrounding this context but then again they might not. It's the chance we take".

I think it would still be useful ,given the situation of meeting an over zealous PC,to have some kind of legal reference. Not to start a confrontation at the side of the road but rather to be in a position of some knowledge if you are to be charged with an offence.




I have my BOB in my car most of the time with a small tipi tent, army surplus DPM goretex, A folding shovel,food,hexi cooker,kelly kettle. Various items in BOB include a catapult ( offensive weapon?) water filter,blast match,Gerber Gator axe with knife in the handle

I keep stuff there as I like to go away on impulse.

Presumably I am not allowed to do this ??

Am I a psycho

GS

 

[widu13]

I can see from your explanation that it'seems to be a public place only for the offensive weapons act.I'm happy with this as I was concerned abut this public place bit.
As far as the offensive weapons bit is concerned,I'm not concerned.If I have an offensive weapon in my car it's because it's being taken somwhere.
Unless an item is specified on a list as an offensive weapon then it seems to me that it's more the manner it which it is handled that defines wether it is offensive rather than what it actually is.
For example a claw hammer in a pub at the weekend not good.
A claw hammer in a pub putting up pictures O.K.
Anyway I digress,I'm happier about this public place in my car business now
Thanks Wanderingblade

Your car doesn't just relate to knife law but that's what people here are talking about. Unless the car in on your land (driveway etc) or on private land then it's considered a public place- whether or not you are in it for various pieces of legislation. It's crazy. These rulings have all come about from loads of caselaw, usually where a court conviction has been appealed and a definitive answer recorded in the law books. "Public place" means different things for different pieces of legislation. With offensive weapons and knives it appears as though they wanted to broaden the range of a public place, rightly or wrongly. The law itself goes back to 1953 but has had various amendments along the way, most common known being the 1998 CJA.

 

[BigShot]

Gunslinger - no, you're not allowed.
As to whether you're a psycho or not, I couldn't possibly comment, but with an axe and knife in the boot, many would think so. (I don't - I think that's perfectly sensible behaviour... just stay over there with your axe please - haha. Really though - I think it's fine, but the law would disagree)

 

[rik_uk3]

Ignore the knife ban for a moment, but I have to ask why anyone feels the need to carry a knife on them in a public place. I'm 54 years old and can honestly say I never had a "Cor, wish I had a knife on me" moment. Would I leave my shotgun in a car? No, of course not so why leave a sharp knife.

 

[Simon]

why anyone feels the need to carry a knife on them in a public place.

I am a project manager for a company that, among other things, builds and installs west end theatre shows. from time to time i am involved in rigging work in theatres and that can mean running ropes and hanging from harnesses over 12 metres up above the stage floor. I always have a knife in my pocket and a leatherman on my belt. I am always in and out of the west end visiting shows, builds, TV studios, I'm in and out of the ITN building all the time. It's unavoidable that I am constantly travelling throughout the west end and the city with a knife and a leatherman in my pocket, in public.

I fear for that members of the public might suffer some kind of fit should they ever find out that a potential killer is sitting next to them on the number 45 bus!!

 

[BigShot]

Rik - I think there's a world of difference between leaving a shotgun in your car and leaving a knife. Knives are massively more versatile and have far more numerous uses in everyday life.

While it is true that most people could get through their entire life without carrying a knife, there ARE many times where having a knife on you is definitely a good thing - you usually make do without, but you'd be better off with one.

In those 54 years, how many times have you used keys to cut sellotape or packing tape?
How many times have you used your teeth to open a packet?
How many times have you had a fight with one of those little ketchup packets in a café or restaurant?
How many times have you noticed a pulled thread on a shirt, tie or other item of clothing just as you get called into an interview or just before your hot date arrives?

Every single one of those situations is (and many many, more are) easier to deal with if you have a knife.

I'll freely admit that before I started carrying a pocket knife on a daily basis I never even considered the need.
More recently I got one and have used it more times than I can count - and I've only had it a few months.

I even have it on me in the house. I don't even need to go to the kitchen for a knife when I need one, it's right there.

Don't forget, of course, the benefit of having a blade on you if you're ever in a car crash, or witness a crash where seatbelts have jammed shut. People have survived the crash and then died in the car because of that.
No rescue knife? No problem - the razor sharp blade on my pocket knife will do just as good a job even in that extremely unlikely scenario.

There's plenty of reason to carry a knife, but no, that doesn't mean you can't get by without one.
But why should one need to get by without one if they'd rather just have one?

 

[wanderingblade]

For example, the sub 3" non-locking folder thing is not in the statute, but is as a result of case law.

This point might need clarifying - 3" folders are indeed mentioned in the statute:

CJA 1988 S. 139 (3)
"This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches."

Case law determined it had to be a slipjoint not just any type of folder after it was argued a locking blade should be considered a fixed blade.

 

[w00dsmoke]

Ignore the knife ban for a moment, but I have to ask why anyone feels the need to carry a knife on them in a public place. I'm 54 years old and can honestly say I never had a "Cor, wish I had a knife on me" moment. Would I leave my shotgun in a car? No, of course not so why leave a sharp knife.

I think it's pretty obvious to most on here why you'd want a knife in the boot of the car and I do think that the government are sending out mixed messages to the public. For example with all the hype about disaster preparedness and becoming more self reliant incase of a local or national emergency; we as citizens are activley encouraged to prepare as part of our civic duty. Surely a contradiction as this would assist you in your defense for having "good reason" to have a knife locked in your boot along with FAK, rope, rations, saw etc? I fail to see if we use our heads in our defense how we would be prosecuted if we are behaving responsibly for the "offense".

 

[BigShot]

w00dsmoke
I think it'll take a major shift in public/media hysteria and governmental policy before preparedness becomes any sort of "good reason".
I think it's a great reason, but personally wouldn't want to rely on it.
I think the safest way is to assume that the one time you'll get stopped is by a jobsworth copper devoid of common sense, a desk sergeant who is no better and a CPS worker determined to climb the ladder and finally a knife-hating judge determined to make an example.
That's why I only ever have my (non-locking) British Army Knife on me all the time and fixed blades only when I have "good reason".



wanderingblade - yes the sub 3" bit is in statute - it's the non-locking bit that isn't.
What I meant was if you read the statute you'd probably end up with a 3" or shorter lock knife - and that'd land you in hot water.
The point was that you can't just rely on what is written if you want a proper understanding - it's only through discussions with legal types on British Blades that i've got a proper understanding of the law (and it's as complicated as it is silly).

Thanks for clarifying though, I do see how that could be a bit misleading.

 

[Simon]

It seems somewhat myopic and self centred to think "I can't see any reason why I would need to have a knife in public, so therefore there can't be any reason why anyone would need a knife in public".

If you only see the reason for having a knife as being having a weapon, then I can see where that perspective would come from. But then perhaps you've got to ask yourself "why can I only perceive a knife as a weapon and not as a tool?"

 

[BigShot]

Simon, I agree with what you said, but I got the impression Rik meant personal use knives, not those needed for work. I can't see the law changing too much (or can I? I certainly hope not!) for the worse on the work blades front, it's the personal blades I see trouble looming for.

That's what I think he meant, so your leatherman goinf from job to job would be fine.

Why would you need to carry it at other times though? Would be the question, not that I think that makes any difference as in my post above, but still.