Survival v Bushcraft?

[moab]

Skipping all the stuff in between and going back to the original post.

I'm not all that sure what the difference is supposed to be between these types of knife other than perhaps the aesthetics.

Either way around, you've specified a survival situation for an outdoorsman / woman so the assumption is that something has gone wrong and you are either injured or for some reason separated from the gear that would make your trip a comfortable routine.

In my case that would normally leave me with two blades on my person, a puukko style antlerknife and a folding knife of some sort in my pocket.

Do I think these are up to the job? Yes, they can do any of the tasks I can foresee and they will have to be because that is what I am likely to have.

If I'm lucky and still have my pack, then I might also have a Leuko which would make life easier but is non essential.

Thanks Wayland - One of many straight forward answers to my (somewhat theoretical question). What I was trying to seek opinion on was the "perceived" view of users on the different types of blade that are normally associated with woodcraft/outdoors type activities (and have got it in buckets ). Myself , I tend to favour "expedition" (small e) style activites and this shapes my thinking about what tools I'lll need. I usually carry a scandi blade, but my recent thinking is leaning towards a slightly more rugged blade as my main tool.

 

[Pict]

In the north woods I would want my SBT but down in Brazil I carry my SBT. The only ting that changes between these locations is axe or machete. Mac

 

[caliban]

I've been trying not to ask this since yesterday, what's an SBT?

 

[Adrian]

Going back to the original post ( and how come no one has expressed a preference for lightsabres eh?eh?), if I was going into a situation where I considered that I MIGHT need a survival kit and could therefore prepare (eg bush pilot over very rough terrain or something) and could only fit one blade into the kit, I'd probably opt for something like a Leuku, and I always have a Leatherman tool on my belt. If I had the space, then an axe (GB of course) and a smaller belt knife (4" or so) and the Leatherman.

If I'm just out for the day somewhere, and the world falls in, then all I'm likely to have with me is the Leatherman. In case anyone asks which Leatherman, it's the Wave - the first model that I've had for years and carry everywhere.

If I'm on an airliner and somehow wide up in the Northern forest all alone and without any bits of plane around, then it could be a struggle to manage with the little plastic knife and fork set that they give you to eat the rubber chicken!

 

[bikething]

I've been trying not to ask this since yesterday, what's an SBT?

Skookum Bush Tool (I think) see here

 

[Big Geordie]

Hi Guys,
I marvel at how often this topic reappears and strangely why the answers are unapposed. Can I ask why a Leuku is so good?
The reason I ask is that I love my puuko but for any task more substantial I prefer my tomahawk or small axe or even a Kukri.. certainly not another knife with a rat tail tang..
Can you shed light on this?
G

 

[VtBlackdog]

I might go with my SAK OHT plain edge; good saw, just enough blade...toothpick!

 

[Genaa]

Hmm following the theme of what would I likely have with me - I have a Fallkniven A1 that routinely goes on all trips with me and is great for pretty much everything thrown at it and I also carry a small french Nontron folder, similar to an opinel but bit more durable for very fine stuff. I would like to supplement these with a smaller strudy fixed blade and would likely choose something like an F1.

 

[BushcraftBaird112]

I think I would choose the bushcraft knife with birch scales over 25 CM. COMBAT SPECIAL OPS, NAVY, SAS, MARINE SAWBACK RAMBO SURVIVAL KNIFE W/ HOLLOW HANDLE!!!!!!! :tongue-ti

 

[wildman695]

to my mind the question answers itself in a survival situation you need a survival knife,if that knife also happens to be a bushcraft knife then so be it I would want something strong able to take a few knocks, suitable for use as a spear, so not too hard a blade or it could break, yet sharp enough to skin your dinner. No matter what lable is on a knife if it is suitable then it is a survival knife. A better question would be what defines a survival knife as different to a bushcraft knife if anything.

 

[Hoodoo]

to my mind the question answers itself in a survival situation you need a survival knife,if that knife also happens to be a bushcraft knife then so be it I would want something strong able to take a few knocks, suitable for use as a spear, so not too hard a blade or it could break, yet sharp enough to skin your dinner. No matter what lable is on a knife if it is suitable then it is a survival knife. A better question would be what defines a survival knife as different to a bushcraft knife if anything.

Well, for one thing, someone skilled in bushcraft with a good woodcraft knife should be able to make a variety of hightly effective spears without tying their knife to the end of a pole. That would be a last thing I would do to my one and only "survival knife" in a survival situation. Good way to break it, dull it, ruin it, lose it.

 

[Genaa]

Well, for one thing, someone skilled in bushcraft with a good woodcraft knife should be able to make a variety of hightly effective spears without tying their knife to the end of a pole. That would be a last thing I would do to my one and only "survival knife" in a survival situation. Good way to break it, dull it, ruin it, lose it.

What he said

 

[rg598]

Wow, I can’t believe this thread is still going on-cool.

@ Big Geordie: I like the Leuku design. I agree, the rat tail tang is a big problem for me, and that is why I don’t use such knives. I believe the reason for the rat tail tang is largely historical. When the design first appeared, metal was too expensive to “waste” in the handle of a knife. It is only recently that we have had the luxury of putting enough metal in the handle to make a second blade. The design has just stuck around.

@ BushcraftBaird112: There is no reason to jump to extremes of silliness. I don’t think anyone is discussing a hollow handle Rambo knife when talking about survival knives. Much like when we discuss bushcraft knives, we are not only looking at partial tang Mora knives.

I think Adrian created the best scenario, i.e. if I were a bush pilot and could only have one knife in my kit, what knife would I take? For me the answer, as I have stated before is a heavy blade, 7in-9in. It is not ideal for all tasks, but I think it is best suited for the work I am likely to do in a survival situation, such as making fire and building shelters. It is not likely that I will have to skin animals, or carve spoons, so while a smaller knife would be better suited for those tasks, the tasks themselves would be a much lower priority.

I know some people disagree, and believe that you can just as easily collect and split firewood, and make shelters with a small knife as with a large one, but I think physics dictates otherwise. When using a large knife to split wood, you can do the same task as with a small knife, but with much less energy. In a survival situation, that is key. At the end of the day, that is why we use axes and big knives for the major wood processing tasks.

Over the weekend, I was watching the Ray Mears World of Survival series, and in all the cultures he explored, when it came to tasks like shelter building and large wood processing, they all used axes or large knives. For one reason or another, al those people believe it is easier to build a shelter with a large knife that a small one.

 

[Tye Possum]

@ Big Geordie: I like the Leuku design. I agree, the rat tail tang is a big problem for me, and that is why I don’t use such knives. I believe the reason for the rat tail tang is largely historical. When the design first appeared, metal was too expensive to “waste” in the handle of a knife. It is only recently that we have had the luxury of putting enough metal in the handle to make a second blade. The design has just stuck around.

I think it also has to do with the areas where those knives come from and the temperatures that they get there (cold), if you had a big chunk of metal sticking out the sides of your handle then it might get a little cold on your hand.

I also think it would probably be better to have a larger knife in a survival situation, unless you had an axe instead. In survival you need to focus on what you need to survive and nothing else really so what's better for building shelters and collecting firewood? You could do it with a small knife but it would be harder, take more time and be tougher on the knife (not to mention you). Some people say that you can do anything you can do with a small knife just as well with a big knife but I disagree there, with a smaller knife you have more control and are able to get a lot more detail but it works the other way too, with a small knife you could do what you can with a big knife but it's not going to be as good, that's why knives come in different sizes, because they're made for different jobs. It's like cutting down a tree, you could use a hatchet but it sure would be easier with a full sized felling axe.

 

[charadeur]

Our friends in the US all seem to prefer big blades for Bushcraft where as us lot mostly prefer about a 4" blade. At the end of the day you can take advice off people but the decision on what knife is right for you is up to you and you only, no-one else knows what your abilities are!

Greg, I think this is an astute observation. After discovering Ray Mears and this forum I was a bit surprised at the UK preference for such a small blade. When I was around 12 or 13 I had the pleasure of being introduced to a friends uncle who was a Blackfoot Native American. One of the many things I learned was that a Bowie knife can hack through a two inch tree in no time when you are making a shelter or traps and if you have to it can field dress a mouse. However that little three inch hunting knife I had was not as versatile.

I am intrigued by the idea of using a smaller blade. I am going to experiment with that idea a little. Do you think it is just technique? Or perhaps we are using our knifes for different things? I really am trying to understand why two groups that seem to be doing the same things have such a wide gap in what is arguably the most important tool we use.

 

[Graham_S]

I think the worry over stick tangs is a bit unfounded.
I mean look at all the classic large blade knives out there.
Most of them are stick tangs.
Swords are generally stick tang, and they're meant for abuse.
Onto the size debate, While I like "zombiekillers" I find a smaller blade more useful, and with good technique I can easily take a 2" tree with a 4" blade.

 

[armie]

@BushcraftBaird112:
You forgot TACTICAL. "Yes, tactical: that meaningless buzzword that has been slowly osmosing its way into the world of outdoor equipment over the last few years." (Quoted from the Outdoor Idiots website)

Years ago - before I was bushcrafting - I saw a knife like that in a magazine, with a rave review. It put me off knives for years; I thought those monstrosities were the norm.

 

[Silverclaws]

Ok, just for a few nights out in the sticks where one is concerned with just communing with nature, doing your thing and then heading back to civilisation, what is better than a useful SAK, or Leatherman. I mean any good SAK or leatherman has at least two useful blades and sometimes a very useful saw besides other bits of shaped metal that can be put to various uses other than their intended uses. So, wherever I go, a Leatherman Juice Xe6 comes with me, and as I always carry my wallet, there is a Swiss card in there, so that is carrying toothpick, tweezers and pin, about as much as I need for what I do. I look at it this way, if I wanted to chop a branch, for whatever purposes, hey I can saw a branch, the rather fine saw found on useful multi tool knives can be good for anything upto six inch diameter, a lot of work, but then to need a branch has got to have some desperation in it. But, when I commune with nature, my aim is to exist without customising my enviroment.

And so to a fixed blade, I do own a Frost's of Mora general purpose knife, and a Devon pattern Billhook, if I envisaged a situation where I would need heavier duty blades, then I would take my Frost's general purpose fixed blade knife, yeah, it has a Scandinavian grind, but knives from there tend to be ground that way, but the knife is a general purpose knife. Anything heavier, then the billhook comes out to play. Now, when I go out in the sticks, I resist carrying my Frosts knife on my belt, because I am kind of forgetful, and it is likely I will forget the thing hanging there and walk out into public and with this society we live in, not a good idea. Sweden, ok, no problems, they have a different attitude up there, but here, the thought scares me, so I don't wear my Mora, it is a liability. To note, I use the pintle type sheaths, where the knife is free to take on any attitude I do, so if for example I decide to mimmick a bat in a tree, the knife swings so the handle faces up, I don't lose the knife.

A survival situation, if whatever happens, then it is usually at a time you don't have your shiny bits of kit on you, so it is having the knowledge to improvise from what you may find around, that is what survival means to me, and in such cases, survival from what kind of disaster, if aircraft, well we all know the prohibitions on taking any seemingly pointed or edged tool in the cabin, we simply won't have the stuff we have learned to depend on with us, so it's knowledge that is the sharpest tool you will have.

But one thing I do see what with bushcraft and survival, is they are once again marketing ploys, something can be sold, with either name attached, and it makes a bog standard knife special in some way, and there creates a confidence in the user, which might not be otherwise there, to remember, a knife is just a cutting tool, nothing more, when push comes to shove, there are many ways to achieve your aim without the most obvious and why risk breaking a knife, or injuring yourself doing something on the edge of it's capabilities when there are bigger tools more suited to the job. Want to cut branches, take a saw.

 

[Siberianfury]

i would prefer some sort of finnish puukko or similar, however if your in a survival situation im sure you would be just fine with a cheap chinese folding knife with an accrylic handle or a peice of broken glass or flint.
given the choice i would choose a real knife like a puukko or one of bernie's blades

 

[Mr Adoby]

In an unprepared survival situation I only have the Spartan SAK with my keys. Perhaps also a larger folder. This is not optimal survival gear. But it's what I've ALWAYS got on me.

If I'm out working in my woods I also have a Stainless Mora Quicksnap, usually a Leatherman Hybrid and other tools, depending on what I do. But that's not a survival situation.

If I'm out on a prepared trip I have a Mora and perhaps an A1 or an axe. But that's not a survival situation.

The best knife for survival purposes is the one you ALWAYS can and actually do carry. It's the only one you can be sure to have in a real survival situation. Anything else is a bonus.