Survival v Bushcraft?

[Bmatt]

If I started a thread called "Polka-dotted aliens from Mars", where I would ask people for their opinion on the best way to dispatch invading polka-dotted aliens, I would not be looking for 10 people to reply, saying "The real issue is how likely polka-dotted aliens exist in the first place". The original poster asked whether we would choose a large (survival) knife or a "bushcraft knife" i.e. Woodlore, Mora etc. and NOT the likelyhood of us getting into a survival situation. Why is it so hard for so many posters to answer a hypothetical question? If somebody wants to post a thread called "How likely is it that you'd get into a survival situation?", go ahead, I think it would be pretty interesting, actually.

My choice for a survival situation would be a large knife. I am not obsessed with large blades. I am not a "one knife for every task" guy. My "favourite" knives to use are actually small knives. However: For a life and death survival situation, where I have to make shelter, process wood, etc. and time may very well be of the essence, I want something that will do the job quickly and easily that was designed for these types of tasks, not to push another type of tool too far. For me, it is a simple matter of logic and reason, and not what type of knife I *prefer*. I *prefer* leukus, but if I went to the jungle I would carry a machete. Why? Logical choice.

Most likely if I got into a real survival situation, it'd be because I lose my way in the forest or something like that, in which case I will have my leuku with me, and not just my pocket knife. I WILL NOT get into a life or death wilderness survival situation out in the woods while driving to the supermarket.

 

[Hoodoo]

If I started a thread called "Polka-dotted aliens from Mars", where I would ask people for their opinion on the best way to dispatch invading polka-dotted aliens, I would not be looking for 10 people to reply, saying "The real issue is how likely polka-dotted aliens exist in the first place". The original poster asked whether we would choose a large (survival) knife or a "bushcraft knife" i.e. Woodlore, Mora etc. and NOT the likelyhood of us getting into a survival situation. Why is it so hard for so many posters to answer a hypothetical question? If somebody wants to post a thread called "How likely is it that you'd get into a survival situation?", go ahead, I think it would be pretty interesting, actually.

The answer to that is simple. This is a discussion forum. There is a poll to make the "black and white decision" you desire. The thread itself is open to discussion and interpretation. This seems to be a problem for you to accept but it's not really your job to moderate what people discuss in the thread or how they interpret the question. But an open discussion of the thread topic is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules here. However, flaming, personal attacks, blah blah blah, are not. Keep it civil and we will all have a good time, and that goes for everyone.

 

[Bravo4]

OK, sorry if I was unclear and went off-topic. Small knife is my answer to the question, to answer the "why?'' part involves some explanation of why I might be there in the first place as this influences my selection of equipment. The only way I can honestly answer a 'hypothetical' question like the OP's is to include my personal assessment as to how likely I am to end up in any given scenario.

Some of these threads do go shooting off in the wrong direction and I apologise if that has been my contribution.

 

[Bmatt]

The answer to that is simple. This is a discussion forum. There is a poll to make the "black and white decision" you desire. The thread itself is open to discussion and interpretation. This seems to be a problem for you to accept but it's not really your job to moderate what people discuss in the thread or how they interpret the question. But an open discussion of the thread topic is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules here. However, flaming, personal attacks, blah blah blah, are not. Keep it civil and we will all have a good time, and that goes for everyone.

I'm not trying to moderate what people talk about. I don't have a problem with anything here. I guess I was just confused as to why posters started to veer off topic, yet repeatedly remind me of the content of the first post. I have nothing against discussion. Sorry if I personally attacked anybody (???).

I've stated my preference and will leave the thread now. Didn't mean to cause problems.

 

[Martyn]

If I started a thread called "Polka-dotted aliens from Mars", where I would ask people for their opinion on the best way to dispatch invading polka-dotted aliens, I would not be looking for 10 people to reply, saying "The real issue is how likely polka-dotted aliens exist in the first place". The original poster asked whether we would choose a large (survival) knife or a "bushcraft knife" i.e. Woodlore, Mora etc. and NOT the likelyhood of us getting into a survival situation. Why is it so hard for so many posters to answer a hypothetical question? If somebody wants to post a thread called "How likely is it that you'd get into a survival situation?", go ahead, I think it would be pretty interesting, actually.

So what you are looking for is an answer that is completely devoid of rationale and divorced from reality? A nonsense answer to a nonsense question based on taste and personal preference rather than reason?

Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but this is a discussion forum and everyones opinion is equally valid even if the occasional spoilsport like me does insist on bringing it down to earth with reason and common sense.

I agree, the question is a flight of fancy, but if you are going to ask it, it's reasonable to expect a rationalised answer isn't it?

Otherwise you might just as well ask "which do you like best, big knife or little knife?".

 

[crazydave]

a good seven inch blade is light enough to carry and tuck away in a pack, happy enough chopping, splitting, carving etc.. 99% of general camp stuff. for the rest or a smaller blade then a swiss knife or multitool. if nothing else I'd rather have a decent multitool.

moras are cheap and usefull but primarily issued as a cadet knife as they still have conscription, the germans issued a full sized knife for years and very good they were too. a lot of armies now issue dual purpose bayonet which doubles as a camp/survival knife and a small swiss style knife. they also issue spades which double as hatchets of a fashion and for trimming small branches to make shelters they are pretty good.

the scandanavians may issue moras but soldiers generally take their own puuko's along, prior to the mora style knives they did issue a puuko and very nice they were too. you soon get sick of having to beat a small blade through every bit of wood you come across.

we had 12 teams of kids doing survival skills at the weekend and I must have cut a few hundred hazel sticks during shelter building with a 7 inch 4mm 440c blade.

 

[Finnman]

Yea, maybe it was too simple question to answer, looks like people think too complicated sometimes I´m on same line with Bmatt that you suppose to answer given question and explain why you choosed what you choosed.
I personally prefer bigger chopper knife if I can have only one cause in my experience fire and shelter making are much more easier and faster with big knife or axe. In ideal situation I prefer nessmuk type of trio (where axe can be replaced with leuku or like) + saw.

I have also seen couple of Moras broke when batoning, so it´s very risky to baton your only blade and propably break it.

 

[grebo247365]

Oh, by the way, I'm not the only person who sees things this way.

"There is no tool more useful in the backcountry than a knife~~~the size I prefer for this style of knife is overall about 310mm in length~~~the blade and handle all one piece of metal, the handle remaining strong throughout, ~~~~"

Raymond Mears, The Survival Handbook - 1990

Even mr Mears kitlist has changed radically over the years,compare this book on SURVIVAL with his more recent BUSHCRAFT publications,lots of folk use the mora/ granfors/ folding saw combo as a result of media surrounding bushcraft (nee wilderness survival) but its all down to personal preference and experience in the end.

 

[Bmatt]

So what you are looking for is an answer that is completely devoid of rationale and divorced from reality? A nonsense answer to a nonsense question based on taste and personal preference rather than reason?

Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but this is a discussion forum and everyones opinion is equally valid even if the occasional spoilsport like me does insist on bringing it down to earth with reason and common sense.

I agree, the question is a flight of fancy, but if you are going to ask it, it's reasonable to expect a rationalised answer isn't it?

Otherwise you might just as well ask "which do you like best, big knife or little knife?".

Not at all. I was just trying to stay on topic. Wouldn't it be possible to have someone blindfold you and drop you off in an unknown location with some supplies and a single knife to test your survival skills? That's a perfect example of being able to choose the knife you'd want to use in a survival situation.

 

[crazydave]

it does sometimes look like the only ones who benefit from the misbelief that you need a knife, axe and saw is the guy who imports them.

a bit like switching to hootchies when a 58 poncho sufficed

 

[Chinkapin]

This thread reminds me of about 10 similar threads that I have read on U.S. sites, where someone on the site asked the, I think valid question: "if you had to survive in the woods for a long period of time and could only take one gun, what would you take."

This generally creates a great deal of controversy and sometimes heated discussion. People often rephrase the question to suit themselves and their point of view. Interestingly, there does sometimes seem to emerge a consensus opinion. That opinion is almost always in favor of the 12 gauge shotgun. The reason it is favored by most people is that by changing the load you can tailor it anything from a heavy load slug suitable for stopping anything in North America to number 71/2 shot suitable for quail, squirrels, etc.

It wins because of versatility. Well, we can't reload our knives with different types of ammunition, so I guess it boils down to one simple thing. What knife would be the most versatile for you. For me, it is a roughly 4 inch blade, full tang, drop point, with a scandi grind. For me that translates into my Enzo trapper. For others it is going to be different. We all have different criteria, different needs and different environmental conditions.

To each his own.

 

[Bmatt]

Good points. Though I would consider the large knife more versatile, because it can chop, be used as a draw knife, baton thicker logs in addition to being capable of doing most of what a 4" knife can do. To me, versatility means varied capability.

As you said, to each his own.

This thread reminds me of about 10 similar threads that I have read on U.S. sites, where someone on the site asked the, I think valid question: "if you had to survive in the woods for a long period of time and could only take one gun, what would you take."

This generally creates a great deal of controversy and sometimes heated discussion. People often rephrase the question to suit themselves and their point of view. Interestingly, there does sometimes seem to emerge a consensus opinion. That opinion is almost always in favor of the 12 gauge shotgun. The reason it is favored by most people is that by changing the load you can tailor it anything from a heavy load slug suitable for stopping anything in North America to number 71/2 shot suitable for quail, squirrels, etc.

It wins because of versatility. Well, we can't reload our knives with different types of ammunition, so I guess it boils down to one simple thing. What knife would be the most versatile for you. For me, it is a roughly 4 inch blade, full tang, drop point, with a scandi grind. For me that translates into my Enzo trapper. For others it is going to be different. We all have different criteria, different needs and different environmental conditions.

To each his own.

 

[rg598]

Lol! Bmatt, looks like you have inherited the torch. If you look a page back in the post, you’ll see me making the exact same arguments. Be careful, I’ve discovered that supporting a large knife here is a good way to get pounced upon by people. It seems like some guys take a challenge to their favorite knife as a personal offence. Stay strong, and good luck to you!

 

[Bmatt]

Lol! Bmatt, looks like you have inherited the torch. If you look a page back in the post, you’ll see me making the exact same arguments. Be careful, I’ve discovered that supporting a large knife here is a good way to get pounced upon by people. It seems like some guys take a challenge to their favorite knife as a personal offence. Stay strong, and good luck to you!

I already bowed out a while ago. I realized that I unknowingly stepped onto the private property of the 4-inch knife club and that I was wasting my time/energy. No prob. I've got better things to do.

 

[Wayland]

With some trepidation I'm posting this thread in the hope that it has not been covered this way before. If it has i apologise and please point me in the right direction. I have done some searches to no avail. Now to my question.

What would you carry to cope with a survival situation in northern european countries (all times of year) between a "bushcraft" style blade and a "survival" style blade & why? I'm not talking about excessive amounts of time in the situation (ie months) but that which could befell any outdoorsman/woman (a few hours to several days)?

Skipping all the stuff in between and going back to the original post.

I'm not all that sure what the difference is supposed to be between these types of knife other than perhaps the aesthetics.

Either way around, you've specified a survival situation for an outdoorsman / woman so the assumption is that something has gone wrong and you are either injured or for some reason separated from the gear that would make your trip a comfortable routine.

In my case that would normally leave me with two blades on my person, a puukko style antlerknife and a folding knife of some sort in my pocket.

Do I think these are up to the job? Yes, they can do any of the tasks I can foresee and they will have to be because that is what I am likely to have.

If I'm lucky and still have my pack, then I might also have a Leuko which would make life easier but is non essential.

 

[Leonidas]

An interesting thread, this topic always evokes differing thoughts, irrespective of the forum, some quite passionate.....and that is wonderful provided we remember some fundamental things.

We are all in the same race, namely the human race.
Our evolution has depended on different opinions about 'everything'.

You know what, thank goodness, without all these different opinions we would not have made the advances we have made, we certainly would not be afforded the opportunity to share our opinion here today! Make no attempt to dissuade a difference of opinion, enjoy it....

On the question in hand, I make knives, ergo have a variety of knives at my disposal.
But the most popular request from BC and Survival folks alike, (Yes the common denominator) is..........can you do that one but change it a bit here, or add that there.
In other words, given a choice rarely there are two blades alike.
Yes folks will say but I like 'this' model and so do many others....true, but how many of you would change something to a greater or lesser degree given a free choice......exactly!

Please do not misunderstand I think the ways of 'both' Bushcraft and Survival centric thinking is a great thing.....
Just pointing out that differences of opinion is a pleasure as it keeps things interesting and evolving.

 

[caliban]

Wow! I understand the question to mean that if you found yourself alone in the woods/tundra/ somewhere not nice, with no knife, and the magic knife fairy popped up and granted you just one knife, which knife would you ask for?

Instead of getting "involved", I'm just going to answer the question. I know bugger all about bushcraft, and in that situation I'd be scared of animals and "funny" noises, so I'd like a big knife, because it would make me feel safe. I'll now be adopting full lurking mode at SOTP before people who know stuff laugh at me. Bye!

 

[forestwalker]

Wow! I understand the question to mean that if you found yourself alone in the woods/tundra/ somewhere not nice, with no knife, and the magic knife fairy popped up and granted you just one knife, which knife would you ask for?

In that case I would ask for the one Ray Mears is using right now, right out of his hand. Not beacuse it would be anexcellent choice, but because of my nasty sense of humour. But other than that that was my understanding as well, with the implication that that would be the blade you would also carry/wear on your person at all times when out, in order for it to be the blade you would have when things went wrong.

Instead of getting "involved", I'm just going to answer the question. I know bugger all about bushcraft, and in that situation I'd be scared of animals and "funny" noises, so I'd like a big knife, because it would make me feel safe. I'll now be adopting full lurking mode at SOTP before people who know stuff laugh at me. Bye!

Valid concern. I may think it is silly; the risk is miniscule in most places, and no knife/sword is a good choice against an animal capable to killing a human. If was actually worried about the wild animals and offered one blade it would be a top class boar spear, since that would give me a better chance against lions, tigers, bears and even wild boars than any knife up to and including a sword. If the knife fairy insisted on a blade I'd pick a two handed claymore or a landsknecht zweihänder, the latter being the one "blade" I'd feel even remotely confident with facing a bear or board with, if it was tiger/leopard/lion a handier chopping sword (e.g. a basket hilt claymore or a tulwar style sabre) would be better. This all assumes some training in their use...

 

[320]

just a thought or twoo.

if you were to google (images) "survival knife" and "bushcraft knife", then compare the first page of each result you would assume that survival knives were medium to large bowies and bushcraft knives were small to medium drop points.

if you expanded the results to two pages your impression would get a little murkier.

if you expanded the result to ten pages of each search all you'd know for sure is that you were looking at knives.

it's already been said but it's still true: the best knife for survival is the one you have.

after that it's personal or cultural bias.

i tend to think of bias as dogma. dogmatic thinking tends to be self-limiting and in a survival situation self-defeating.

when i was a child i read every book bradford angier wrote and as a consequence picked up some peculiar skills and attitudes about woodsmanship.

if i was dogmatic, i would have a five inch randall knife on my hip as i typed this.

i don't.

i have a case stockman in my pocket and a leatherman on my belt.

that's what works for me.

you probably have something else and that works for you.

ultimately it all works.

it's more about your skill and attitude than the tool.

 

[sandbender]

"...just a thought or twoo.if you were to google (images) "survival knife" and "bushcraft knife"...............it's more about your skill and attitude than the tool..."

Great post.