Survival v Bushcraft?

[Bmatt]

So the question really is, can anyone think of a survival situation that might demand you chop lots of stuff up into bits? Aside from somebody pointing a gun at you and saying "chop lots of stuff up or I'll shoot ya" ...I cant think of much.

Well, then you're not thinking hard enough. How about any of the very rainy, moist environments where finding dry wood is difficult? How about snowy environments where lots of the dead wood is covered with snow, either on the ground or in trees? These seem like valid potential survival situations to me.

Taking the question seriously (which I admit I find difficult), the best survival knife is always going to be the small, light, comfortable, easy to use, easy to carry, calorie-sparing, multi-purpose, utility knife.

Opinion noted. I'm sure many "primitive" (for lack of a better term) people around the world might see things differently.

Seriously, why make such a deal out of chopping stuff? It's the last thing you'd be wasting your energy doing. You may need to drop one small pole, or split one small log for kindling, but a small knife and a baton will do quite nicely and for everything else, the little knife is just so much better.

Again, thanks for your opinion.

Chopping uses more energy than batoning with a small knife? I have used small and large knives for splitting logs, and it definitely took more energy to baton with the small knife (large knife was thick, which acted more as a wedge). My thick-bladed leuku will chop through a 1.5" dia. tree/limb in just a few blows. Why would I baton it with a small knife instead, to dull the fine edge quicker?

BTW, I do find that split logs do tend to burn better due to the greater exposed surface area. Maybe it's just me.

 

[big_swede]

Chopping uses more energy than batoning with a small knife? I have used small and large knives for splitting logs, and it definitely took more energy to baton with the small knife (large knife was thick, which acted more as a wedge). My thick-bladed leuku will chop through a 1.5" dia. tree/limb in just a few blows. Why would I baton it with a small knife instead, to dull the fine edge quicker?

BTW, I do find that split logs do tend to burn better due to the greater exposed surface area. Maybe it's just me.

He didn't compare chopping with batoning. And yes, it is easier to ignite split wood in some aspects, but it is perfectly possible to ignite unsplit wood too, if you have a hot enough fire.

Your point about moist environments isn't really valid in my experience. At least, I have yet to find a place or time so wet that I have to start splitting wood. Same with snow covered ground. Having been quite a lot above the arctic circle I haven't found this to be a problem. I would in any case have an axe instead of a large knife if I were to fell trees and split fire wood.

 

[Toddy]

Before anyone starts throwing rattles out of prams............this post is by Toddy, as in Toddy the Full Member, not with her Mod hat on

Chinkapin, I'm sorry you take the comments personally, but from our side of the pond and from the frequency in which we have been assailed in the past by the *big knife* is *best* from your fellow countrymen, it is possible to understand why the assumption is as it is.

That said, it is noticeable recently that American members are posting threads using smaller knives, and they are commenting on doing so too. Mistwalker's and Traderran's posts come to mind.

Frankly I'd be astonished if the sheer practicality of a smaller blade was not widely understood and applied in North America.

As to the stereotyping, I'm as guilty as anyone else of that, and I'm sorry it galled you. It wasn't the intention and I will bear it in mind in the future.
Besides Hoodoo wouldn't let me forget
Have you seen his collection of shinies ??


Next point; I live in West central Scotland, the only dry wood is dead standing. It's *always* damp here, even in the height of Summer or the depths of Winter. I will batton split timber for kindling, and use the same knife to make feather sticks to catch the fire. Fallen wood sizzles when put onto the fire; if timber doesn't crack when you pull the branches of dead standing, it's nearly as wet as the stuff on the forest floor.
However, I firmly believe that recognising the climate and the growing conditions of the area you are in would be crucial to survival.

Am I going to lug around a heavy burden of a big knife or an axe just in case I need to *survive*. That's a resounding "No".

Knowing that I was going into that situation though what would I take ? My small knife, a folding bucksaw and an axe I could carry on my belt. I can't see that I'd need anything else.

So, to answer the OP, probably the same knife that's in my pack/ bag/ belt anyway.

It's interesting to see the different approaches, but I think folks sometimes forget that these threads aren't an argument but a discussion, and a discussion that has to take account of the environment that the individual is used to.

Wet is my world never bone dry baked to a crisp, and never so cold that the soil freezes below an inch or so down for a couple of days. The woodlands around me are rich in biodiversity, temperate and mostly deciduous. Miles of hedges too.
Within a mile of my home there are five burns, two small and one major rivers.
Lots of ups and downs, rolling hills and river gorges, with meanders where the land allows.
Pretty common for much of the UK really.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Bmatt]

He didn't compare chopping with batoning. And yes, it is easier to ignite split wood in some aspects, but it is perfectly possible to ignite unsplit wood too, if you have a hot enough fire.

When you have a task to complete, you have to find a way to do it using the tools at hand, i.e. chopping with a large knife versus batoning with a small knife (if the task happens to be limbing or cutting down a small tree). This comparison is unavoidable.

Martyn said that he would use his small knife for every task, including batoning and splitting. My point was that I have found it takes more effort and time to baton or split everything with a small knife (which will only dull quicker) than using a more robust large knife, which can both chop and baton. Yes, you CAN do the tasks with a small knife (you CAN also walk to work every day if your job is 15 km away), but a large knife will also allow you to do most of the tasks of a small knife without unnecessary abuse. I would say this also applies for axes, hatchets, kukhris, machetes etc. etc. etc. versus small knives.

I just don't understand why you would only give yourself a small blade to use for everything in a survival situation, when it requires more effort, puts extra strain on the knife and dulls the edge quicker. Why not just take along extra capability of a large knife/axe instead of pushing your small knife to its limits? Does no one else see this?

Also, I didn't say it was not possible to burn split logs, I said they burn better. You can burn wet green logs if your fire is hot enough. That wasn't the issue.

Your point about moist environments isn't really valid in my experience. At least, I have yet to find a place or time so wet that I have to start splitting wood. Same with snow covered ground. Having been quite a lot above the arctic circle I haven't found this to be a problem. I would in any case have an axe instead of a large knife if I were to fell trees and split fire wood.

Well, then you haven't been in moist enough environments. Have you lived/"bushcrafted" in wet, sub-tropical Florida? I have. Have you tried to start a fire in a forest in the Northwestern US after it's been raining for a week straight? A friend of mine who lives there has. Sometimes you simply can't just roam around and find dry wood. Maybe we should try to think a little bit outside our own geographical regions when addressing these kinds of subjects.

 

[Bmatt]

Am I going to lug around a heavy burden of a big knife or an axe just in case I need to *survive*. That's a resounding "No".

Are big knives/small axes really a heavy burden? That just sounds kind of extreme to me. Maybe the big knives you have seen weigh 5 kg or something! My primary leuku is barely over 500 g and is unnoticeable if worn on my belt.

 

[Toddy]

BMatt, define a big knife ? To me it's anything with a blade of over 12cms / 4 and a half inches.

Contrary to your post too, my small knives don't dull easily or quickly. I don't even sharpen but once in a blue moon, I do strop frequently though. My knives get a lot of use too; not a drawer queen or sharpened to hair popping on a daily basis among them.

The bigger knives are damned hard work to use, they're not any sharper, but they need more muscle/ energy/ effort to be effective.
When I see a *survival* knife with a big hooked tip and an serrated spine, that weighs in at a kilo or so, practicalities dictate I'd rather have a decent small axe or folding saw and a small knife.
One tool to rule them all just disnae work.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[sargey]

Interesting thread, lots of good points being made.

my experience of wilderness living skills training and survival exercises leads me to the conclusion that there are two sort of phases to the proposed bushcraft/survival scenario. also there is the simple issue of time.

the first phase is shelter construction, this typically takes half a day to a day to get the bulk of it done. that's not non-stop working, that's with several breaks. that's tending the fire, your hungry friend, boiling water and keeping hydrated.

a bigger knife makes this easier. yeas i can bend and cut saplings with my mora knife. i can limb them with a knife and a bat. but it's simply easier with a knife that has enough mass to just slide down the side of a pole and limb several branches with a "tink tink tink tink" (that's the sound of branches coming off ) each sweep, rather than having to set the pole up on my shoulder set the knife on each branch, and hit it with my bat.

getting a small log down to fire board size can be easily done with a mora knife. it's just easier and faster with either an axe or a bigger knife. incidentally, i saw my first ever knife broken just by batonning the weekend just gone, and ihave tried hard to break a few. a 14 year old scout snapped a mora viking clean in half. or it might be a third.

go on a ray mears journeyman course or on a woodsmoke abo course, the teams get a small forest axe to do the big jobs. surely if all these jobs were so easily done with just a woodlore knife, why would they bother?

the problem with a big knife or axe as a chopper, is psychological. it's often easier to pick up a 6"dia log and smash it into pieces by smacking on another one. but when your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail. when your main tool is a chopper, you could be lured into doing unnecessary work.

if you've only got a very small knife, or no knife at all, you can survive, but you need to modify your expectations. you're unlikely to be able to build a full on northwoods leanto with a roaring long log fire. you'll probably shivering as you dry out the leaves in your debris hut. if you can get a fire going, you can still build a thermal kennel with just breakable branches.

after the first day or so of your stay, that shelter is satisifactorily done. but you keep improving it bit by bit. then you'll be wanting to manufacture trap triggers and fish hooks and the like. the detail work is much more easily done with a small knife. as is cleaning small game and fish.

a survival knife is one that you will always have about your person. to my mind this effectively excludes big bowies and machetes and hatchets and axes. if it's more likely to be in your rucksack than in your pocket on your belt, it doesn't count.

Ultimately it matters not a jot what your knife is, or what your particular system is, as long as you know how to use it. there is no such thing as wrong or right, just what works for you. after all, we can set a chav loose in the woods with a skookum, or an AW woodlore, or a tom brown tracker. the main question how much mess will he make before he shuffles off. pick which ever knife you fancy designed by whichever bushcraft or survival guru you like. that knife cannot replace basic skills.

so what is your knife good at? why do you go for that one?

cheers, and.

 

[Toddy]

:notworthy



cheers,
Toddy

 

[sandbender]

"....I just don't understand why you would only give yourself a small blade to use for everything in a survival situation..."

Because it is a 'survival' situation, many of us only carry a sub four inch knife when we are out and about and so that is what we will have to get by with.

"... Have you lived/"bushcrafted" in wet, sub-tropical Florida? I have. Have you tried to start a fire in a forest in the Northwestern US after it's been raining for a week straight?..."

Clearly if we're heading off for those environments then we will carry a different set of tools, however the OP asked about the tools we'd most readily have to hand to survive a few hours to a few days in Northern Europe, for many of us that would be a small folder or sub 4 inch fixed blade.

 

[Bmatt]

BMatt, define a big knife ? To me it's anything with a blade of over 12cms / 4 and a half inches.

Contrary to your post too, my small knives don't dull easily or quickly. I don't even sharpen but once in a blue moon, I do strop frequently though. My knives get a lot of use too; not a drawer queen or sharpened to hair popping on a daily basis among them.

The bigger knives are damned hard work to use, they're not any sharper, but they need more muscle/ energy/ effort to be effective.
When I see a *survival* knife with a big hooked tip and an serrated spine, that weighs in at a kilo or so, practicalities dictate I'd rather have a decent small axe or folding saw and a small knife.
One tool to rule them all just disnae work.

cheers,
Toddy

I would consider a small knife to be up to, say 3", mid-sized would be 3"/4" to 6" and large over 6" or 7". My opinion only.

I didn't say using a smaller knife in that way dulls the edge easily or quickly, I said quickER, i.e. prematurely. What do I base this on? The fact that the finer edge of a small knife dulls easier when used to perform the same rough work due to the bevel angle being smaller (and therefore inherently weaker, given the same steel) compared to large knives.

My blades are the furthest thing from drawer queens and are sharpened enough so that they work well. I am not concerned with popping hair either.

Do you really find big knives hard to use? Why? I've never had any problem at all. I honestly do not see how it could take more effort to chop a small tree/limb, for example, with a large knife than fiddling around batoning with a smaller knife. Fortunately, I am reasonably strong and able, and have never experienced problems using a large knife.

Now, where I do agree with you 100% is in regard to the "survival knives" with a clipped blade, "saw" back etc. I.e. the Rambo knives. I personally find those knives to be rediculous and have absolutely no interest in them. It's important to note that there is a world of difference between those knives and leukus, kukhris etc.

I also completely agree with having multiple tools as opposed to "one tool for everything" (which is NOT what I am advocating). As I mentioned above, my small knife has a 2.75" blade. Yes, less than three inches long. Why? It is light and agile and allows me great control and precision when doing finer carving and similar tasks. For me personally, I don't need a small knife any larger than that. Even smaller would work fine too! But for rougher work, I simply prefer to use a saw and large knife (or axe on occasion) based on testing, reflection and experience. To each his own.

 

[big_swede]

I just don't understand why you would only give yourself a small blade to use for everything in a survival situation, when it requires more effort, puts extra strain on the knife and dulls the edge quicker. Why not just take along extra capability of a large knife/axe instead of pushing your small knife to its limits? Does no one else see this?

Also, I didn't say it was not possible to burn split logs, I said they burn better. You can burn wet green logs if your fire is hot enough. That wasn't the issue.

I didn't say I only use a small blade, read my posts again. I said I wanted an axe. Small blades don't dull faster than larger, assuming the steel is the same. Your second paragraph is also a misunderstanding from your side.

Well, then you haven't been in moist enough environments. Have you lived/"bushcrafted" in wet, sub-tropical Florida? I have. Have you tried to start a fire in a forest in the Northwestern US after it's been raining for a week straight? A friend of mine who lives there has. Sometimes you simply can't just roam around and find dry wood. Maybe we should try to think a little bit outside our own geographical regions when addressing these kinds of subjects.

What the h3ll do you know about where I've been and what geographical region I have experience from? Keep those stupid arguments to your self.

 

[Bmatt]

Because it is a 'survival' situation, many of us only carry a sub four inch knife when we are out and about and so that is what we'll have to get by with.

Clearly if we're heading off for those environments then we will carry a different set of tools, however the OP asked about the tools we'd most readily have to hand to survive a few hours to a few days in Northern Europe, for many of us that would be a small folder or sub 4 inch fixed blade.

Good points. I guess I got a bit off track, however (as clearly stated by Toddy), there are parts of Northern Europe that are VERY wet a lot of the time, so I think my argument still applies.

Now, how I may differ from many of you is that I always have my leuku with me when I am out and about (usually stowed in my pack). So as far as I can tell, if there is any chance of me being in a genuine survival situation in Northern Europe, I will have my small knife AND my leuku with me. Simple as that. I carry an Opinel No. 8 as my regular pocket knife day to day, but there's very little chance I'd be stuck with only that. Why? Because if I were going anywhere where it's possible that I'd be in a survival situation, I'd have my other knives with me!

 

[Bmatt]

I didn't say I only use a small blade, read my posts again. I said I wanted an axe. Small blades don't dull faster than larger, assuming the steel is the same. Your second paragraph is also a misunderstanding from your side.




What the h3ll do you know about where I've been and what geographical region I have experience from? Keep those stupid arguments to your self.

All I was doing was giving you real-life examples and asking you a question. No more, no less. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

 

[Martyn]

Opinion noted. I'm sure many "primitive" (for lack of a better term) people around the world might see things differently.

Although it could be argued that the acts of daily living is "survival", in most cases the primitive people you mention are just using the right tool for the job. Just like you would use an axe or a saw given the choice. That doesnt mean you would walk round with an axe and a saw just in case. Also, with many "primitive" people, you are forgetting that the knife historically has to do double duty as a weapon. Not an issue for you and I.

 

[Bmatt]

Thank you, sargey. I'm glad you see the benefits a large blade can have in skilled hands.

 

[Bmatt]

Although it could be argued that the acts of daily living is "survival", in most cases the primitive people you mention are just using the right tool for the job. Just like you would use an axe or a saw given the choice. That doesnt mean you would walk round with an axe and a saw just in case. Also, with many "primitive" people, you are forgetting that the knife historically has to do double duty as a weapon. Not an issue for you and I.

From what I have seen/read, tools like machetes are often used as do-it-all tools, from wood processing to food prep to defense.

 

[Martyn]

From what I have seen/read, tools like machetes are often used as do-it-all tools, from wood processing to food prep to defense.

Kukri's, parangs, bolos, machette's etc are a product of the environment they are used in and the needs of the people who use them.

If you take defense out of the equation, then a major "pressure" for a big knife has been removed. It then just boils down to how much you intend to chop stuff. If you need to move or travel, you most definitely are not going to be building log cabins every time you stop for the night. If you have a tarp or any other means of covering yourself, you are not going to be burning precious calories chopping trees down. Aside from splitting down one log to get a fire going, I really dont think chopping will factor highly, but if it did, a big knife would be better. An axe would be better still.

 

[Bmatt]

If you take defense out of the equation, then a major "pressure" for a big knife has been removed. It then just boils down to how much you intend to chop stuff. If you need to move or travel, you most definitely are not going to be building log cabins every time you stop for the night. If you have a tarp or any other means of covering yourself, you are not going to be burning precious calories chopping trees down. Aside from splitting down one log to get a fire going, I really dont think chopping will factor highly, but if it did, a big knife would be better. An axe would be better still.

I totally agree with you in a camping/bushcraft/survival situation. My mentioning of people using machetes, for example, as their main (or only) blade was more in reference to folks who use them in day-to-day living in the tropics, for example (I know it has nothing to do with this thread )

 

[Bravo4]

What would you carry to cope with a survival situation in northern european countries (all times of year) between a "bushcraft" style blade and a "survival" style blade & why? I'm not talking about excessive amounts of time in the situation (ie months) but that which could befell any outdoorsman/woman (a few hours to several days)?

small knife, cos that's what I would have on me. I can't afford porters so I usually have to carry everything myself. I would add to small knife a hatchet and saw, big SAK and tiny SAK and that is about all i care to tote. A large knife for me would be redundant. If I was going deep into the taiga during winter hopefully I'm going with somebody who wants to carry and can use an axe . For a 3 month(summer) backcountry mtb trip thru the u.s.rockies, all I had was a tiny SAK . Other items took priority, a heavy knife was simply out of the question. If I was to do this trip now I would outfit myself differently because my interests have evolved, if you will.

I'm getting much more interested in woodcraft and such as an activity rather than AtoB type trips(travel heavy) so I have started to carry (what I consider to be) heavier tools that are more practical to work with. I consider a small hatchet to be a 'heavy' tool and not something I actually need, just something I have always wanted and something I want to use.

Again for a trip to the taiga, these days I might plan it to be a 'bushcraft' focused trip so I would prefer two or more smaller tools to one large tool. Whether or not this is the most useful setup for wilderness survival is somewhat irrelevant, it is simply what i would have at hand if it became a 'survival' situation.

I have just never been a big knife kind of guy. I did go thru a nunchaku and throwing star phase as a young teenager but never the big knife thing. I must have joined the wrong army cos we never ever had campfires and we hardly ever played with knives. Things that go 'bang' and things that go 'boom'; we did spend alot of time with those. The service issue pig sticker is for sticking pigs as that is it's main function as a 'survival tool' ; whittling wood is for ex-soldiers. Downed military pilots are not supposed to be running around sticking pigs, having campfires and building lean-to's; they are hunted animals themselves. Thier knives need to bust canopies, cut parachute line entanglements, gut a snake; get back to base and explain how it was that they managed to lose such an expensive aircraft.

The word "survivalism" implies self-defense and fear, at least according to the wikipedia definition. Wikipedia then goes on to define Richard Proenneke as a "naturalist" and "survivalist". lol, I wouldn't call RP's cabin a 'unabomber style shack' but this is what the use of the word 'survivalism' has come to mean in popular culture. I really don't think RP was into 'survivalism', the man simply enjoyed a natural environment and lived well within it.

I have seen the occasional Rambo wannabe, but never far from the trailhead. So for me I guess it comes down to wieght; I prefer an 8oz knife over a 16oz knife so i can carry 8oz of something else that will keep me out of a 'survival' situation or is just fun to play with

I think the 'all-purpose' tool goes along with the 'top 10 ways/items' to do anything, nonsense for the masses.

It could be said that Otzi the Iceman was not exactly skilled at widerness survival but surely if he was alive today he would take part in the bcuk forum and wish to vote in this pole:
http://www.iceman.it/en/equipment

 

[Martyn]

The whole notion of a survival knife is a nonsense. You could have the best survival knife in the world, but if it is in a drawer at home when you are unexpectedly thrust into your survival situation, it may as well be made of chocolate for how much use it will be.

The best survival knife is going to be the one on your belt or in your pocket when you need it. What have you got on you right now? Cos that's what you'll be using. I almost always carry either a sebenza or spyderco, so my survival knife will almost certainly be one of those. If you are lucky enough to live in a part of the world where carrying a belt knife openly is acceptable, then you have more options. But in the UK at least, a survival knife is going to be some sort of folding pocket knife because walking round 24/7 with a belt knife on display is going to get you arrested.


So the best survival knife becomes anything that you can carry everywhere, every day, all day.