Disgusting!

[Goatboy]

Isn't it maybe also the case that morals and social responsibility are no longer taught and or enforced whether through love or punishment? As I said I had a fairly strict upbringing and respected others. I learned at a young age that it was nice to be nice, I enjoyed and still do enjoy helping others. I'm not coming from a religious view here - heck the Sunday School asked me not to come back as I was "asking to many difficult questions", and I don't consider myself a Christian. But I do see their ten commandments are a good rough framework for living a life and to use as one of many foundation stones in society. Respect seems to have fallen from favour, some of the behaviour to-wards adults from children and vice versa is appalling. I wouldn't have dared be cheeky to an adult where I grew up as I would've copped it from the adult and my parents when I got home. Similarly when a kid comes into the shop you can sometimes see adults pre-judge them, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and be nice as I would to anyone, but often I'm let down by their attitude. Reading what I've written I feel I'm coming across as some Victorian morally crazed father. I'm not I'm pretty young but just think that the cohesive glue that binds a society is coming unstuck. Maybe people should consider how they will bring up a child and how much time they will spend with it before having one, maybe some folk shouldn't be allowed to have children in the first place... but I see that causing another huge discussion if I go into it here. In Robert A. Heinlein most famous and contraversial book the society requires that you have do give service to it in order to enjoy certain freedoms. They have to be earned, they are not a given right. Now that every one here thinks I'm a right wing nutter I may retire and continue to enjoy the fireworks. This is a really good thread though, just a pity that a nasty act had to take place for us all to talk about these things.
Goatboy.

 

[HillBill]

The age ranges in question are not specified as far as I can see, so I don't know where you're getting that from. .

Sorry that was assumption, based on me not really believing that older teenagers get smacked for being naughty by their parents. I may be wrong.

 

[locum76]

The greatest deterrent for anything is fear of the consequences.

fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the darkside...

Put them in a small cage with 2 horny bucks and a doe during rutting season. That'll sort it

that would kind of work for me. It would at least be educational as opposed to just repeating the violence. It echoes my position on getting these guys to work in a zoo.

 

[Huon]

I think Heinlein's most controversial books were probably Stranger in a Strange Land or Time Enough for Love.

The first was a favourite of the Manson Family and may have been the basis for some of the ceremonies etc. that Manson put in place.

The second seems to either advocate or condone incest.

Are Heinlein's views really a good basis to build a pro-punishment case on?

Cheers,

Huon

Isn't it maybe also the case that morals and social responsibility are no longer taught and or enforced whether through love or punishment? As I said I had a fairly strict upbringing and respected others. I learned at a young age that it was nice to be nice, I enjoyed and still do enjoy helping others. I'm not coming from a religious view here - heck the Sunday School asked me not to come back as I was "asking to many difficult questions", and I don't consider myself a Christian. But I do see their ten commandments are a good rough framework for living a life and to use as one of many foundation stones in society. Respect seems to have fallen from favour, some of the behaviour to-wards adults from children and vice versa is appalling. I wouldn't have dared be cheeky to an adult where I grew up as I would've copped it from the adult and my parents when I got home. Similarly when a kid comes into the shop you can sometimes see adults pre-judge them, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and be nice as I would to anyone, but often I'm let down by their attitude. Reading what I've written I feel I'm coming across as some Victorian morally crazed father. I'm not I'm pretty young but just think that the cohesive glue that binds a society is coming unstuck. Maybe people should consider how they will bring up a child and how much time they will spend with it before having one, maybe some folk shouldn't be allowed to have children in the first place... but I see that causing another huge discussion if I go into it here. In Robert A. Heinlein most famous and contraversial book the society requires that you have do give service to it in order to enjoy certain freedoms. They have to be earned, they are not a given right. Now that every one here thinks I'm a right wing nutter I may retire and continue to enjoy the fireworks. This is a really good thread though, just a pity that a nasty act had to take place for us all to talk about these things.
Goatboy.

 

[stonyman]

I'd like to apologise for offending anyone, that was never my intention, I typed without thinking as I was really upset with what had happened.

I am very sorry for that what I wrote and would like the moderators to delete my posting so that I don't offend any one else.

 

[Wattle]

I'd like to apologise for offending anyone, that was never my intention, I typed without thinking as I was really upset with what had happened.

I am very sorry for that what I wrote and would like the moderators to delete my posting so that I don't offend any one else.


No problem fella, you caught me at a bad time.

Phil

 

[firecrest]

Oooo, that was sharp! ;-)

Been a while since I heard of a fawn raiding a coop and killing the chickens.

I shouldn't post in threads like this; I have the "wrong" personality type. <chuckle>

I'll get my coat...

I have the wrong personality too, Im to much of a s*** stirrer to leave these threads lone, especially after a couple of rum and tizers. Who knew their would be so much alcohol at the birthday party of a two year old. tut.

tizer was awful with rum anyway, made me feel like a teenager.

 

[EdS]

made me feel like a teenager.

A baddly behaved one that needs firm disapline

 

[SimonM]

This is not specifically aimed at the original post, more life in general...

As well as running a behaviour support centre, I teach student teachers in behaviour management techniques and one of my mantras is

The certainty of a sanction is more important than the severity of the sanction.

To put it another way; If you knew that you would be caught and punished (robustly), would you risk doing wrong or harm? I think not.

I feel that this certainty is sadly lacking, not just in schools but in life as a whole. The pendulum of human rights has swung to far in my opinion.

As a society, we teach our young that they have rights, but with every right comes responsibilities that are just as important.

To add my opinions further:
Should the offenders be punished - YES, but how is not for me to decide.

Just my thoughts,

Simon

 

[Jaysurfer]

Again i'll make the comment i made yesterday after i read the post on a family of swans being shot to death...

Anyone who harms an animal for no reason other than enjoyment deserves to have the punishment that they inflicted on the animal back on to them!

This sickens me to the bone - I'd happily jump up and down on their heads until they were head the little sick twisted B******s!!!!

Unfortunately as with the majority of horific animal heaths they are done by teenagers who will not be prosecuted or named by the media and will walk away with a slapped wrist.
This is not good enough and the laws need to be changed or I think people will end up taking the law into their own hands.

If i see any teenager hurt an animal I will set my dog on them and beat them... As human beings it is our job to care for this planet and all the creatures in it, we are appartently the most evolved race and so should take responsibility for the planet and all living things not destroying it!

This country with it's goverment and members of society who don't deserve to be part of our society are ruining it for the rest of us.

 

[Goatboy]

I think Heinlein's most controversial books were probably Stranger in a Strange Land or Time Enough for Love.

The first was a favourite of the Manson Family and may have been the basis for some of the ceremonies etc. that Manson put in place.

The second seems to either advocate or condone incest.

Are Heinlein's views really a good basis to build a pro-punishment case on?

Cheers,

Huon

Hi Huon,

No I would build very little including a rather shaky film franchise on Heinlein's views. He came to mind as he was the first name to illustrate a point I wanted to make.

Cheers
Goatboy.

 

[Wayland]

The greatest deterrent for anything is fear of the consequences. Simple. <Snip

That assumes that they think they will be caught. I'm not going to go Googling for it but there have been many studies that show that criminal acts are often simply thoughtless.

They do not even consider the possibility of being caught, let alone what would happen if they were.

Snip>
Nobody messes with the so called hard men round their areas do they? Whys that then? Simple, because the daren't. They know what will happen and they would rather not have it happen. That fear stays their hand. <Snip

This example is completely different. Here action and reaction are not detached. Annoy the big fella and he will punch you. Difficult not to think about that one.

Snip> To put it another way; If you knew that you would be caught and punished (robustly), would you risk doing wrong or harm? I think not. <Snip

That is trying to make the action / reaction connection but again we are assuming they are thinking that far ahead, frankly I don't think the type of people who do this sort of thing are intelligent or creative enough to consider anything beyond the next few minutes.

It is unutterably sad, but I think this is a deep rooted symptom of our society today and I really don't know what can be done to change it, but I know what won't work, because it's been tried before and therefor it has led us to where we are now.

 

[British Red]

I'm fairly sure that if punishing the little sickos doesn't prevent them re-offending, then hanging them will.

You know what? I strongly believe if those twisted little hoodies had seriously contemplated that the consequences of their action could end up as as a 6' drop with a 5' length of hemp knotted under their ear then they would have considered their actions more than the consequences being a cuddle and a community service order.

You know what else hasn't been shown to work? All the psycho babble "environment over heredity" nonesense. Bad is bad. Having bad things happen to you does not excuse doing bad things to others.

I am heartily sick of people who put the condition of the thug ahead of the condition of the victim.

If nothing else works, eliminate the problem. If people cannot understand the difference between right and wrong or that actions have consequences, then they cannot be educated and cannot be allowed to continue in their actions. Nor should they be a long term drain on the funds of scoiety which could be better served providing medical treatment and social needs. So use a simple cheap solution. that will guarantee they will not re-offend.

In a world where resources are limited, can anyone really want to spend money on these people, knowing that it denies life saving medical treatment to people who have never hurt anyone? It really is that simple where tax revenue is finite.

Red

 

[HillBill]

The law should be in the hands of the people.

When i was in the legion, if one of us in the company did something not right or whatever the rest of the company got punished while the offender stood and watched. One example was all doing push ups while looking at the person who's actions had made them do the push ups while shouting merci comrade between presses. After 10 minutes people get pretty peeved with you

The NCO's don't need to punish the original offender as the rest of the company would do it for him.

Nothing works better. It tends not to be repeated by the same bloke either.

 

[Goatboy]

"You know what else hasn't been shown to work? All the psycho babble "environment over heredity" nonesense. Bad is bad. Having bad things happen to you does not excuse doing bad things to others.

I am heartily sick of people who put the condition of the thug ahead of the condition of the victim." Posted by British Red



Well said,

Goatboy.

 

[HillBill]

I'm fairly sure that if punishing the little sickos doesn't prevent them re-offending, then hanging them will.

You know what? I strongly believe if those twisted little hoodies had seriously contemplated that the consequences of their action could end up as as a 6' drop with a 5' length of hemp knotted under their ear then they would have considered their actions more than the consequences being a cuddle and a community service order.

You know what else hasn't been shown to work? All the psycho babble "environment over heredity" nonesense. Bad is bad. Having bad things happen to you does not excuse doing bad things to others.

I am heartily sick of people who put the condition of the thug ahead of the condition of the victim.

If nothing else works, eliminate the problem. If people cannot understand the difference between right and wrong or that actions have consequences, then they cannot be educated and cannot be allowed to continue in their actions. Nor should they be a long term drain on the funds of scoiety which could be better served providing medical treatment and social needs. So use a simple cheap solution. that will guarantee they will not re-offend.

In a world where resources are limited, can anyone really want to spend money on these people, knowing that it denies life saving medical treatment to people who have never hurt anyone? It really is that simple where tax revenue is finite.

Red

Things used to be that simple until policy/law makers came about and threw spanners in the works in order to justify their positions of cocker uppers. Each one thinks they have to leave their mark on society, and they have, look at the place. They can keep it.

Human rights was the worst idea ever came up with IMO

 

[Goatboy]

I'd like to apologise for offending anyone, that was never my intention, I typed without thinking as I was really upset with what had happened.

I am very sorry for that what I wrote and would like the moderators to delete my posting so that I don't offend any one else.

Hi Stonyman and moderators,

I may be out of line and sorry if I am but I think that though some may disagree with the post, it's an emotive subject that hits some folk hard? I know "knee-jerk" postings can be over zelious due to a high emotional state and should be avoided but it was an honest response to something that sickened you. As such I'm sure many / most read it that way?

Sorry if I got it wrong,

Colin.

 

[Tripitaka]

I have yet to read one of Reds posts and not think "Well said that man!" If everything else on this forum fell by the wayside, I'd still stay just to read his posts.

'tis said that we like people that are like ourselves.

 

[Rob Tangtent]

its wierd, i read in a Gary Paulson book, that there was a deer petting zoo, a little child was petting a young deer, unexpectadly the deer snapped and fatally wounded the child,

im definately not trying to say that the thugs were in anyway justified at all, it just made me think that somehow everything happens for a reason. im not sure wether i believe this its just i think the thugs should be treated in a similar way the deer was treated.
not by hurting it back, but by someway containing it or rehabilitating it. i realise its two very differnt scenarios it just was a good way to express my point,

violence is never the way forward, it wont help.

 

[locum76]

its wierd, i read in a Gary Paulson book, that there was a deer petting zoo, a little child was petting a young deer, unexpectadly the deer snapped and fatally wounded the child,

im definately not trying to say that the thugs were in anyway justified at all, it just made me think that somehow everything happens for a reason. im not sure wether i believe this its just i think the thugs should be treated in a similar way the deer was treated.
not by hurting it back, but by someway containing it or rehabilitating it. i realise its two very differnt scenarios it just was a good way to express my point,

violence is never the way forward, it wont help.

very well said.