Disgusting!
- Thread starter DavidJT
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Im just stirring the pot. Its true though. Its all a matter of perception. 2 homeless men were recently kicked to death and set on fire whilst lay sleeping the same as this deer. Are they the same kind of person? probably. so what seperates vicious mindless killing from other kinds of vicious mindless killing? Just public perception.
Oh come on, what kind of knee jerkery is that?
Come on all ye bleeding heart liberals, back me up here. I know there are social wokers, carers and CPN's on this site who can see past the act itself and recognise this behaviour as a sociological symptom.
I know its a bad thing that was done and the kids need to be made to realise that but hurting them will only exacerbate the issue. I'm totally convinced that violence begets (sp) violence...
If the kids are caught, I'd put them to work in a zoo. mucking out pens first of all and then moving on to other tasks.
Yeah, harsh physical punishment, we've never tried that before, have we? Clearly, it's just that we weren't hitting them hard enough. Maybe if we were to "get mediaeval on their ***es"?
Cure screams of "It never did me any harm! (Other than giving me this inexplicable urge to beat children...)"
Yes, let's go back to the "good old days", when you could torture children with impunity.
One more datapoint for the hypothesis that whenever someone ways "I'm not x, but...", they actually are.
Now, where's my asbestos underpants? I was supposed to be staying out of these sorts of threads...
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Locum, Jim ford is right in part. Quite a high proportion of those that do very very sick things to children and other vunrable groups start on animals first. The two individuals I have met that met fitted the tradtional diagnosis of psycopath had scarely had normal parents and normal childhoods.
That is an 'analysts' retrospective outlook on things, many many kids who kill and abuse animals for “fun” do it for just that, fun, and have no history or inclination to do the same to kids. Retrospectively it is an indicator of a tendency or condition, not a diagnostic tool for what is to come.
Just as being the ‘quiet chap’ in the street is no indicator of someone who will go postal on his co-workers.
Hi Locum, yes you are correct in most cases something has either been done to them or not done to them to make them turn out this way ( there are just some bad people out there too though ). And it's good that we should try to help / fix the damage. But don't you think that others deserve protection from these damaged individuals in the mean time?
A year or two back Radio 4 brought that Sheriff Joe Arpaio over for a week to tour our correctional system and was appalled that it took till Thursday for anyone to mention punishment to him. Yes we should correct problems in people but crime has also to be punished. My folks were quite strict and instilled good values in me, but there was also a last resort of punishment. I quickly learned from an extremely young age that if I stepped out of line there would be consequences. As such I didn't step out of line... and the punishment didn't come. As a society, indeed to make it work we need a base line of what is acceptable and what is not. All social groups man or animal have to have rules and a way of enforcing them, look at wolves, apes, mere cats and the likes. Bad ones are punished or driven out to protect the group as a whole.
Sorry that's my tuppence worth, I just feel that it's good to help / protect us all, damaged and innocent alike.
Goatboy.
Oooo, that was sharp! ;-)
Been a while since I heard of a fawn raiding a coop and killing the chickens.
I shouldn't post in threads like this; I have the "wrong" personality type. <chuckle>
I'll get my coat...
Well, I'm all for punishment. Frankly I doubt very much that all three of the individuals in question were traumatised youths - just nasty little thugs egging each other on.
Some transgressions deserve punishment not understanding and a nice cup of tea - this is one. Its not about rehabilitation or reconditioning or a nice group hug. Its about expressing outrage, consequences and non acceptance unequivocally. If that doesn't work, there are (or should be) punishments that have a zero re-offending rate.
I'll leave it there as this is going to get political. I think these bottom feeders need punishing. Scarce resources and time should be expended on those who have earned it not those that have not.
Red
Some transgressions deserve punishment not understanding and a nice cup of tea - this is one. Its not about rehabilitation or reconditioning or a nice group hug. Its about expressing outrage, consequences and non acceptance unequivocally. If that doesn't work, there are (or should be) punishments that have a zero re-offending rate.
I'll leave it there as this is going to get political. I think these bottom feeders need punishing. Scarce resources and time should be expended on those who have earned it not those that have not.
Red
Nobody's saying there shouldn't be some sort of punishment - the question is whether than punishment should be based on physical violence.There are forms of punishment and means of correcting behaviour which do not involve violence, and they're generally more effective. Which is more important - actually correcting the behaviour in question, or just venting your frustrations by hurting someone?
Oh, so you get to beat people up to express your feelings? And this is supposed to teach them what, exactly? That it's wrong to hurt others? Great example to set.
These kids clearly have a bright future working in the sort of prison service some people here want to construct, where violence and cruelty are seen as positive traits. They'd fit right in.
The greatest deterrent for anything is fear of the consequences. Simple.
If they are not scared of the consequences then they are not likely to give them much thought. Yet, instill a sense on fear into someone and those same actions are not very likely to happen.
Nobody messes with the so called hard men round their areas do they? Whys that then? Simple, because the daren't. They know what will happen and they would rather not have it happen. That fear stays their hand.
Put them in a small cage with 2 horny bucks and a doe during rutting season. That'll sort it
If they are not scared of the consequences then they are not likely to give them much thought. Yet, instill a sense on fear into someone and those same actions are not very likely to happen.
Nobody messes with the so called hard men round their areas do they? Whys that then? Simple, because the daren't. They know what will happen and they would rather not have it happen. That fear stays their hand.
Put them in a small cage with 2 horny bucks and a doe during rutting season. That'll sort it
Yes, it would serve them right to receive it - or are they only allow them to dish it out?
Both are important. Punishment is just as important as rehabilitation.
Dunc, we won't agree on this - you think my ways are reactionary. I think your ways molly coddle sick little freaks.
We disagree - thats okay
Red
You emphasis is about children (young) and does not relate to later teens who are in a position where they are responsible for their own actions.
Also children hit for being bad accept that as punishment. In later life if they are not getting hit for being bad then they cannot relate it to a punishment.
In a large-scale meta-analysis of 88 studies, psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University, looked at both positive and negative behaviors in children that were associated with corporal punishment. Her research and commentaries on her work are published in the July issue of Psychological Bulletin, published by the American Psychological Association.
While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).
Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.
...
The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems.
When i was younger, if i stepped out of line badly then i got a smack plain and simple.
Over time various punishments were dished out to me depending on the serverity of the 'offence'.
Over time i learnt what i think can only be described as my parents values as i was punished for what they thought was unacceptable.
This is now how i live my life, i have come to dissagree with some of my parents values and suplanted them with my own. I can only assume by the fact i am not in prison and do not have a criminal record that society as a whole agrees with me. I do get very angry when i see behaviour like this. But i am not mentaly ill or emotionally unstable nor do i go out and be agressive towards people
British RedBoth are important. Punishment is just as important as rehabilitation.
Dunc, we won't agree on this - you think my ways are reactionary. I think your ways molly coddle sick little freaks.
We disagree - thats okay
Red
I will admit that i firmly agree.
This is totally unaceptable behaviour that MUST not go unpunished (assuming they are ever caught).
However should they be caught and punished then these kids must learn that this is unacceptable behaviour and more importantly WHY.
What i cannot stand is the aproach that their unbringing somehow excuses bad behaviour and for that they can't be punished because "they don't know any better". They need to be shown that this behaviour cannot be tolerated while being punished so they understand that there are consequences to their actions.
Phew...that's a lot of my lunch hour gone!
While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).
Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.
...
The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems.
When i was younger, if i stepped out of line badly then i got a smack plain and simple.
Over time various punishments were dished out to me depending on the serverity of the 'offence'.
Over time i learnt what i think can only be described as my parents values as i was punished for what they thought was unacceptable.
This is now how i live my life, i have come to dissagree with some of my parents values and suplanted them with my own. I can only assume by the fact i am not in prison and do not have a criminal record that society as a whole agrees with me. I do get very angry when i see behaviour like this. But i am not mentaly ill or emotionally unstable nor do i go out and be agressive towards people
British RedBoth are important. Punishment is just as important as rehabilitation.
Dunc, we won't agree on this - you think my ways are reactionary. I think your ways molly coddle sick little freaks.
We disagree - thats okay
Red
I will admit that i firmly agree.
This is totally unaceptable behaviour that MUST not go unpunished (assuming they are ever caught).
However should they be caught and punished then these kids must learn that this is unacceptable behaviour and more importantly WHY.
What i cannot stand is the aproach that their unbringing somehow excuses bad behaviour and for that they can't be punished because "they don't know any better". They need to be shown that this behaviour cannot be tolerated while being punished so they understand that there are consequences to their actions.
Phew...that's a lot of my lunch hour gone!
The age ranges in question are not specified as far as I can see, so I don't know where you're getting that from. And it's such a lovely sunny day outside that I'm not going to spend my afternoon hunting down journal references to prove the point. The full paper is here, for anyone who fancies digging into it in depth.
Corporal punishment has been the default option for pretty much the entirety of human history, and a quick review of that history does not exactly fill me with confidence as to its efficacy. When is it supposed to start working? Contrary to the bleatings of the tabloid press, we actually live a safer society than we ever have done before, and I, for one, do not want to see us return to the standards of the Victorian era, when crime and violence were endemic, in spite of the widespread use of extremely harsh discipline, at all levels of society, from the cradle to the grave.
Anyway, I've got better things to do this afternoon.
Nobody is saying that. We're just saying that this sort of behaviour doesn't fall out of a clear blue sky, and that simply beating the snot of them probably isn't going to help matters any.
