Britain to start terrorism survival course
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BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Since it was more likely that the knife was at the throat of a stewardess, I doubt that he would have started a firefight in the cockpit since most people operate on the where there is life there is hope assumption. An airline pilot is unlikly to ensure the certain death of a colleague or passenger until the hijackers demands are established. That is how he would have been trained.
And the nature of that attack was unprecedented anyway.
As someone who escaped an IRA bomb by less than a minute, I can tell you that my response was not to go out and buy a handgun.
I like your signature line.
post 911 the airline measures were stupidity. anyone with any intelligence or training can go into a supposedly secure aircraft and make suitable weapons within seconds. when they assessed security measures not one airport passed the bomb in the luggage tests. the meta detectors are desensitised below the knees because of the amount of metal in footware like walking boots which have a 6inch steel shank in them.
if someone wants to blow a plane up but you wont let him take fluids in his hand baggage then he'll tape bags or condoms of the required fluids to his body where they wont be picked up. if he cant take a blade then he will use something else to threaten the stewardesses.
they're measures thought up by people who havent got a clue how the real world works then worked on by the spin doctors. most of the hijackings from the 70's the guns were put aboard the plane by third parties at the service end or by coopted flight crew.
you cant really win unless you can take them out at source and even then its knowing where the source is. look at the recent domestic terrorism cases. suburban britain and suburban brits
sorry to be so cheerfull
if someone wants to blow a plane up but you wont let him take fluids in his hand baggage then he'll tape bags or condoms of the required fluids to his body where they wont be picked up. if he cant take a blade then he will use something else to threaten the stewardesses.
they're measures thought up by people who havent got a clue how the real world works then worked on by the spin doctors. most of the hijackings from the 70's the guns were put aboard the plane by third parties at the service end or by coopted flight crew.
you cant really win unless you can take them out at source and even then its knowing where the source is. look at the recent domestic terrorism cases. suburban britain and suburban brits
sorry to be so cheerfull
The five hijackers pepper-sprayed and slashed two flight attendants and killed an Israeli passenger. The first officer heard screaming and went back into the cabin. They cut his throat and laid him in the aisle. The hijackers went into the cockpit and cut the captain's throat. They left him in his seat while one of them flew the aircraft from the first officer's seat.
Defense of a cockpit is not just common sense, it's a relatively simple defensive problem. The attackers must gain entry by either force or subterfuge, and come through a small opening one at a time. The the folks on 9/11 were caught off guard, but it would be beyond foolish to let it happen again. If John or any of the other pilots had known what we know now, they could have maintained control of their airplanes. Some countries have trained and equipped at least some of their pilots to prevent a repeat performance. Britain has not. It blows my mind.
It'll be a couple days before I can respond again, I'm off to fly a 767. I assure you that before hijackers take my airplane there will be some nasty carpet stains.
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Strange thing about terror is that it always funded and those that do funding are never caught. Terror always represents the self interest of a minor group which often uses another group of under fed, under educated or socially isolated individuals to gain its aims. Its funny how the cannon fodder is always young and the guiding light is often old and well educated with a full bank account.
When you look at the IRA it was funded by well meaning (?) individuals and groups in the USA, the US Govt never banned them from collecting for 'the cause'. In the end 'the cause' was running drinking dives and resorting to petty crime. I often wondered if a UK response of lets collect money for the Oklahoma Feedom fighters would have produced a response from the UK govt.
If you follow the money chain and spent the funds of those who support this kind of madness on education, food, medicine and welfare the world would be a better place.
Hearts and minds, not guns and bullets.
S
When you look at the IRA it was funded by well meaning (?) individuals and groups in the USA, the US Govt never banned them from collecting for 'the cause'. In the end 'the cause' was running drinking dives and resorting to petty crime. I often wondered if a UK response of lets collect money for the Oklahoma Feedom fighters would have produced a response from the UK govt.
If you follow the money chain and spent the funds of those who support this kind of madness on education, food, medicine and welfare the world would be a better place.
Hearts and minds, not guns and bullets.
S
Granted there are many flaws in airport security, but that isn't one of them. The magnetometers will pick up metal in shoes.
This is the attitude of helpless passivity that infiltrates a society that has given up too many freedoms and too much self-reliance. Even for those of us who personally aren't so inclined, it's been imposed on us with legal restrictions.
The five hijackers pepper-sprayed and slashed two flight attendants and killed an Israeli passenger. The first officer heard screaming and went back into the cabin. They cut his throat and laid him in the aisle. The hijackers went into the cockpit and cut the captain's throat. They left his body in his seat while one of them flew the aircraft from the first officer's seat.
Defense of a cockpit is not just common sense, it's a relatively simple defensive problem. The attackers must gain entry by either force or subterfuge, and come through a small opening one at a time. The the folks on 9/11 were caught off guard, but it would be beyond foolish to let it happen again. If John or any of the other pilots had known what we know now, they could have maintained control of their airplanes. Some countries have trained and equipped at least some of their pilots to prevent a repeat performance. Britain has not. It blows my mind.
It'll be a couple days before I can respond again, I'm off to fly a 767. Hijackers may take my airplane, but I hope there will be some nasty carpet stains before they do.
Chaps, this has strayed a LONG way from bushcraft and I have trouble seeing how it can go anywhere good if it continues in this vein.
Oblio,
Its probably best that you step away from this discussion. Clearly you feel strongly on the matter, but this isn't the forum to launch into this stuff.
Cheers guys.
Oblio,
Its probably best that you step away from this discussion. Clearly you feel strongly on the matter, but this isn't the forum to launch into this stuff.
Cheers guys.
The thread's about surviving terrorism, and it hasn't strayed from that. And it's spirited and engaged without getting out of hand.
??
I do feel strongly about the subject, and I'm well versed and trained in it, and with an insider's perspective. Should I stick to subjects that I'm ignorant of? (Joking, joking, put down the ban hammer. It's illegal anyway...)
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I salute you for being able to discuss it without getting too emotional.
I am curious about the precision of your information about what happened on that flight.
My understanding was that there was air to ground communication by passengers only on the United flight that crashed into the ground.
Since your friend's plane went into the WTC what was left to confirm what you say?
I am not doubting you but would like to know the source.
I entirely agree about better security but how would a handgun have helped more than a locked and secure door?
I am curious about the precision of your information about what happened on that flight.
My understanding was that there was air to ground communication by passengers only on the United flight that crashed into the ground.
Since your friend's plane went into the WTC what was left to confirm what you say?
I am not doubting you but would like to know the source.
I entirely agree about better security but how would a handgun have helped more than a locked and secure door?
Two flight attendants on AA #11 (including one I'd taken to lunch the day before) made long cell phone calls to the airline's operations department. The captain and one of the hijackers made radio transmissions. We can also piece some things together because of what happened on other flights that day, computer data and plans that were recovered, training that was received, etc. The lead hijacker's luggage didn't get on the flight and provided some clues. The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder didn't survive, but the recorded radar track data provided some additional info. Some of the transcripts and info are in the public domain and available on the internet, some you can take my word for (or not
)The hijackers got through a locked and secure door. A pilot armed with a handgun would have had an excellent chance of killing them. It certainly couldn't have made anything worse.
it should really go under other chatter as its more general knowledge conversation.
to win a terrorist war you have to be as brutal as the terrorist and society holds us back which is why we cant truly win. they take hostages and behead them, all we can do is imprison them. they took out the twin towers and there's an outcry when we destroy a house full of al quaeda leaders because the blokes wife and kids were in the house. collateral damage has to be accepted first. In ireland we had notebooks full of the names and addresses of ira and sympathisers. we could have swept down and interned the lot if the irish had done the same on their side of the border instead of assisting them.
arming the pilot is a mute point as they should have had sky marshals on board from when el al started to do so. civvy pilots are not trained to be agressive, like doctors they are trained to save lives by their actions not take them.
anyway the restrictions on airlines now mean that bushcraft cant help you out as you have no knife to whittle a last spoon with
to win a terrorist war you have to be as brutal as the terrorist and society holds us back which is why we cant truly win. they take hostages and behead them, all we can do is imprison them. they took out the twin towers and there's an outcry when we destroy a house full of al quaeda leaders because the blokes wife and kids were in the house. collateral damage has to be accepted first. In ireland we had notebooks full of the names and addresses of ira and sympathisers. we could have swept down and interned the lot if the irish had done the same on their side of the border instead of assisting them.
arming the pilot is a mute point as they should have had sky marshals on board from when el al started to do so. civvy pilots are not trained to be agressive, like doctors they are trained to save lives by their actions not take them.
anyway the restrictions on airlines now mean that bushcraft cant help you out as you have no knife to whittle a last spoon with
Yup, I agree with that.
Naa, sorry that goes against the grain. Internment has never worked. It didn't work when the Americans locked up every person that looked slightly Oriental during WW2, it certainly didn't work during the early years in Ireland. By lowering yourself to act like the beast you become one yourself. If you don't hold true to your own ideals then all you are are doing is fighting for fightings sake. That to me is abhorrent. The war on terror has to won by several different factors. Using intel correctly, but that of course assumes the intel to be right- a totally different ball game altogether. Treating the people as you would wish to be treated. Why? It's your behaviour when things are bad thats remembered. Making martars out of people never works. However these are only my simple feelings and are only ment as such.
anyway the restrictions on airlines now mean that bushcraft cant help you out as you have no knife to whittle a last spoon with
Yup agree with that too..
I was talking with a work mate a while back about his experiences in Afghanistan. The problem there, other than being undermanned and under equipped isn't the people. The Taliban simply scare them and the troops cannot be everywhere at once. They go in rebuild a town stay a while and leave. When they come back the Taliban have come in and killed a few folk and blown up buildings as punishment. Not only that they also force people to join and work for them, even if it's only supplying food and equipment. You can't blame them for wanting to live and doing that, certainly it's a catch 22 situation. Of course the main reason there is a lot of ill feeling towards the west is the continued interference as they see it. Whether or not it is, is a completely different subject.
I remember when that article first came out last year there was a lot of talk on various forums about it then, but whats happened since then, I mean how many terror survival courses are there out there, and are they successful - in terms of a business not surviving an attack of some kind ?
Nag.
Random fact for the day...
The father of a bloke I often work for was one of the Lancaster pilots who firebombed Dresden
I disagree. This policy has signally failed in Israel.
It is possible to win against terrorists, but not by descending to their level. Winning requires not just holding the moral high ground, but also cutting off funding and support for the terrorists.
Without going into the finer points of people who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag without using a gun I think its fair to say that as a nation us Brits are pretty self reliant and are not really so scared that we need to carry a gun to walk out of the door
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