Are we all enjoying the low fuel costs

[Tripitaka]

At last! Naboo, you have taken this to the most important point.

Wealth does not bring happiness.

Would you rather be poor and happy or rich and unhappy? (Rich and happy not available at this time, please call back later!)

Happiness is also dependant on the decisions you make and there are as many chances to get it wrong making it exponentially harder to be both rich and happy.

I passionatley agree with your final line though; I considered religion in that but then realised that it was the love of money that made religion evil.

(caveat: I intend a huge difference between "religion" and "faith" with faith being the personal level. Phew!))

 

[andybysea]

Tripitaka, theres two ways to interpit this,
'' agree that not everyone can get to those positions. Heavens, can you imagine living in a world where everyone had the drive to achieve that? Where everyone strived to be the best they could be and not only to realise the dream but to create the dream too? One thing is for sure, we wouldn't be worrying about running out of fossil fuels with no alternative on the horizon.''

1, its the poors fault the world is in such a state for being thick,and not having the capacity to invent things to save it.
2, its the riches fault because they with there oil business's buy up all the ecological alternatives and hide them to keep us using there product.
qoute
1) Read "The Fifth Discipline" by Peter M Senge
2) Research Russ Ackoff and study as much stuff of his as you can
3) Research systems thinking
4) Study Lean Six Sigma methodology so you understand it inside and out.
5) Approach local companies and offer to apply your knowledge for free so that you can build up 2 or 3 projects
6) Visit the online jobsites and look for LSS or Lean Six Sigma contract opportunities.
7) keep studying.

Next you'll be telling me to see paul mckenna,and derren brown,to get them to make me think meself rich.
lets face it the rich need the poor more than the poor need the rich,its just that we either dont do anything about it,or dont realise we can. ps wouldnt mind being rich for a while to see if it does make me happier or not, i cant really see it upsetting me that much! pps dont even get started on religion and wealth i will get banned!

 

[sandbender]

...it is certainly a regrettable situation...

You have 'the gift of understatement' you should get into politics

"How did he become mayor in the first place".

He had friends in the right places and wealthy backers who knew he'd be their guy once he was in place.

"What circumstances resulted in those people living in that area to begin with"

World War 2 and the 'Siege of Budapest' mostly.

...but that doesn't mean that the mayors activities were the only factor in the equation...

The Mayors activities are a smokescreen, he was simply another inept, corruptible politician given power and authority by an uncaring and disinterested electorate. The real criminals are those who used their wealth and power to corrupt him and the local government.

 

[Tripitaka]

1, its the poors fault the world is in such a state for being thick,and not having the capacity to invent things to save it.
2, its the riches fault because they with there oil business's buy up all the ecological alternatives and hide them to keep us using there product.

I gave up on "fault" and the blame culture a long time ago and now see things in a far more "situational" light; this is where we are, that is where we need to be, this is how we get from here to there.

Removing emotion from decision making and moving to holistic thinking rather than reductionist thinking makes you realise that it doesn't make any difference whose fault it is in any situation.

Non-fault accident claims lawyers will prove otherwise!! <grin>

 

[gunslinger]

Absolutely agree! What I am trying (badly) to explain is that anyone COULD do it but few people have the determination and goal focus to actually carry it through. There will always be "the poor" that end up doing these jobs but like it or not, they are there by choice due to a number of factors and they have very little to do with inherited privilege.

Do you realise just how smug and self-aggrandizing you sound.



There are so many wrong choices; the default path is to get it wrong, hence the majority will remain poor. I think that some of the right choices are to become educated in life; study people and situations, definately become open-minded and remove emotion from your decision making. Always strive to be the best that you can be; it doesn't matter if you are better than anyone else but always challenge yourself to do better. Those are generic decisions not solely reserved for wealth.

There are many well educated people (and I dont just means academic)striving to do the best they can,making what the consider to be the right choices at the time,who never become rich.

I think the decisions needed to enable wealth are to ensure that you understand wealth creation (money makes money is definately one!) and to ensure that you are in a career that has many opportunities to be well paid. When in that career, do everything that you can to make yourself invaluable and always seek more responsibility; it won't always come with more pay but it will put you at the top of the pile for promotion - closer to the highly paid positions.

Sorry isn't this exactly what others are saying ?
Second point seems to infer that to get anywhere you need to kiss bottom. Sorry I would rather go without.


I'll even offer the first leads for anyone that wants to test this:

1) Read "The Fifth Discipline" by Peter M Senge
2) Research Russ Ackoff and study as much stuff of his as you can
3) Research systems thinking
4) Study Lean Six Sigma methodology so you understand it inside and out.
5) Approach local companies and offer to apply your knowledge for free so that you can build up 2 or 3 projects
6) Visit the online jobsites and look for LSS or Lean Six Sigma contract opportunities.
7) keep studying.

Step 6 will have you earning between &#163;400 and &#163;900 a day before tax. Once you become experienced, you would look to move into a consultancy, improve to Master Black Belt level and the current opportunities in London pay &#163;1500+ per day.

No land required! ;D

JC self help books now
I can guess how you make your money. Not a publisher by chance ?

You may feel insulted by my comments but I am sure many on here feel the same way about some of your posts

The fact is none of the three you mentioned earlier came from a poor background.Least of all Branson. All of the above have trampled on many others to get their wealth,something most of us would find morally abhorrent.
I have come from a background where there was often no food on the table (perhaps my father should have made better decisions) and have earned large sums of money at points in my life.But I would be lying to all if I took the credit for being an astute decision maker.
I was in the right place at the right time,not by informed choice but by luck.
I have owned thriving business's,property (and I mean owned outright,no mortgage) and all the trappings of wealth.
I closed my last business because I realised that there was much more to life than the constant,unending pursuit of wealth.
What I own now I could fit in my motorhome with a bike trailer behind.
I have never felt better about myself and my life.
MONEY you are welcome to it.

GS

 

[Simon]

<chuckle> take a look at systems thinking (google it). Study that in depth and it will change your view, and your comment. .

Ha! "systems thinking" I'm well aware of it and consider it a croc

While we're recommending each other reading material, perhaps you should look up Daniel Golemans "Vital Lies, Simple Truths; the psychology of self deception".

 

[firecrest]

Ill get round to addressing some points shortly (if the thread doesnt close!)
But Red asked me what `Issues` those were and Tripitaka you asked how owning land would make you better off financially.

The issue I was addressing was in your original statement, why the poor might <i>resent</i>
the rich which is what I was addressing.

 

[craeg]

No so and I have posted up and edit as people seem to be zooming into that aspect. You are where you are because you decided to join the forces. I think our forces do a superb job in very difficult circumstances but surely you didn't sign up to become rich?

My self-aggrandizing and very learned friend

I did not join the RAF because I thought it would make me rich as I am sure many people choose different careers for lots of reasons other than money. I joined because I was proud of the fact that the armed forces gave us the freedom that we all enjoy (slowly eroding however,) and wanted to do something worthwhile for society.

At the time I joined property prices were reasonable and affordable with the forces pension on retirement from the RAF with a simple job to top up the income. Now because of the crazy increases in property value, (partly to blame are those other of my favourite people, the estate agents and the buy to let parasite brigade), property for a lot of my 'thicker' friends and colleagues is now affordable.

Yes I am sure if I was clever and worked harder and blah blah blah I would own a property in France and several in UK but I don't. But neither do the astro-physicist and computer science Doctorates that I work with do either. Wrong choices then I guess!

This forum is about bushcraft so can't we please get back to that wonderful and affordable subject please. This thread is now making me unhappy or is it the thought of lots of money to buy that big house with 8 acres near Kimbolton (Dream on and work harder/better choices!!!!!

Anyone know the best way to create a hearth from a nice lump of ivy? Drying times, extra processing, etc.
Craeg

 

[craeg]

Ha! "systems thinking" I'm well aware of it and consider it a croc

While we're recommending each other reading material, perhaps you should look up Daniel Golemans "Vital Lies, Simple Truths; the psychology of self deception".

Funny!! Like it Simon

 

[firecrest]

I agree that not everyone can get to those positions. Heavens, can you imagine living in a world where everyone had the drive to achieve that? Where everyone strived to be the best they could be and not only to realise the dream but to create the dream too? One thing is for sure, we wouldn't be worrying about running out of fossil fuels with no alternative on the horizon.

As for the rest, it's all a bit too close to communism for me; a system where there is no incentive to get ahead and achieve more only to have it taken off you and given to those that made different choices.

What a terrible thing to say! This is not how economics works. There is a finate number of positions, a finate number of wealthy people because there MUST be low income people. Not just in this country but all over the world, or else we wouldnt be able to buy goods at all if they actually cost what the workers aught to have been paid to produce them.
I think what is making people angry with you is that you are so self-asured that your success was entirely down to yourself and no luck at all was involved. While Im sure you have been driven and earned your position, It cannot mean that all who are so driven get those positions. You have changed your original statement from saying those who are poor are so from not working hard to saying those who are poor are there through choice to now saying it is because the poor are not as driven as you are. You fail to realise that if everybody tried their hardest, everybody strived to achieve their dreams then the ratio of rich and poor would not change one bit.
You have earned what you achieved, you are not admitted there is always a certain amount of luck involved. Where you were born, how you were educated, your intelligence , your pesonality, being in the right place at the right time and having connections. The last point is also the most important.

When I talked of land ownership. I wasnt referring to some bloke who might buy a couple of acres or a few flats. Im talking about your owners, the ones handing you your paycheck who own more money and power than some governments!

 

[firecrest]

1) Read "The Fifth Discipline" by Peter M Senge
2) Research Russ Ackoff and study as much stuff of his as you can
3) Research systems thinking
4) Study Lean Six Sigma methodology so you understand it inside and out.
5) Approach local companies and offer to apply your knowledge for free so that you can build up 2 or 3 projects
6) Visit the online jobsites and look for LSS or Lean Six Sigma contract opportunities.
7) keep studying.

If you`ve read all these books yourself and rose to the top of your game on your skills alone, how come you got that basic question wrong that I asked you on statistics when you work in statistics?
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=459931

 

[British Red]

Well firecrest, for all that th UK "poor" resent the UK "rich", I am sure that the UK "poor" are resented in turn by the majority of the worlds population - those who actually are poor. SO if there is to be some "grand levelling" I hope it will also cover all the truly poor. Lets face it even the UK "poor" buy the goods they use cheaply because they in turn exploit workers abroad who toil in fields and factories for very little,

"Rich" and "poor" are relative terms.

Those who whinge about how hard done by in this country should take a look around the world and understand just how fortunate they are! They also have the opportunity to earn what they want by effort, ingenuity or luck.

If we are going to "even things out" it should surely be with all mankind - that would see all UK citizens giving up about 90&#37; of what they own and consume. They are only UK citizens by an accident of birth (luck). Indeed many have inherited unimaginable wealth (from the standpoint of a Rwandan refugee). Strange though how so many who wish to lay claim to other peoples possesions don't seem to give up their own to those who have even less.

I think theres a word for that,

Red

 

[andybysea]

British Red wrote,
''Lets face it even the UK "poor" buy the goods they use cheaply because they in turn exploit workers abroad who toil in fields and factories for very little,''

It is not the British poor who import /or exploit workers from poor countries, it is rich business who do this to make maximum profit then sell to British poor who buy stuff from china etc because its cheaper,and the reason its cheaper is because fat cat bosses and share holders demand so much profit over here and also British workers so far still have human rights which means they dont have to work 18hrs a day for 50p weve been there and done that during the industrial revolution weve paid our due's,granted this countries so called elite would have us back there if they thought they'd get away with it,Other countries still havent gone through stuff this country did 100yrs ago its not our fault, yes i feel sorry for the peoples of Asia and Africa, but nothing i say over here would help them its up to them to help themselves,as its up to the people in this country to stand up for ourselves, i would much rather buy British but try finding something made in Britain now is that my fault or the boss of the business who sent his business abroad to maximize his profit? you tell me.

ps i try to buy as little as i can from china etc mainly because i feel its quality is lacking prefering to buy stuff made in europe or GB this is however not always possible

 

[British Red]

its up to them to help themselves,

I'm sure the people wealthier than you use the same sentiment about you

It is not the British poor who import /or exploit workers from poor countries, it is rich business who do this to make maximum profit then sell to British poor who buy stuff from china etc because its cheaper,

And if you didn't buy it, they wouldn't import it. Simple.

yes i feel sorry for the peoples of Asia and Africa, but nothing i say over here would help them

Why don't you give them some of your money? You have more than your fair share...in Global terms.

If everyone being equal is the way to go, then surely thats right and proper.

Or do you mean everyone in the UK should get a fair share but people not lucky enough to be born here should starve?

Once you go down this "others have more than me and I want some of it" line, you need to accept that, in reality, every UK citizen has far more than most of the rest of the world. So get prepared to live on a lot less if you want to go down the "sharing out" road. Unless of course its all about taking and not about giving?

Or is it just about the UK?

Theres a word for that too

Red

 

[Husky]

Strange turn this thread has taken but as food for thought:

http://globalrichlist.com/

 

[Rebel]

Wow this thread has been all over the place but it's fascinating nonetheless. And we've all been grown up about it so far.

Just for the record I'm financially poor by British standards but if the acquisition of wealth was high on my agenda I probably wouldn't be contributing to a bushcraft forum and working for charities that pay low wages.

I count riches as being the contentment of doing things that help the community, having a family that loves me who I enjoy being with and doing tasks that I find fulfilling. The pursuit and love of money does not bring any kind of happiness and often brings misery to those that have it. I would feel morally bankrupt and miserable if I was working in the City chasing money. Of course I need money to exist in our materialistic society, it paid for the computer and broadband connection I'm typing on now, but so long as I can pay the bills I'm happy.

"Why do the poor bitter and resentful of the rich?" Having lived in the third world and now living and working among some of the poorest people in one of the richest places in the country I can see many factors at work. There's not room enough here to get into all of the problems and some are open for debate. There have been lots of social studies by people more learned than myself but I'll mention one factor and that is that the rich need to keep the poor poor. You can't be rich if there aren't a lot of poor people underneath you. We can't all be rich, it just isn't possible with our present financial system so the tendency is for the rich to stay rich to the exclusion of the poor - as if often said it takes money to make money. I know I've been simplistic and you can bring out all kinds of counter arguments but I think that what I've said is basically true.

With regards to growing our own food, I do that (on my allotments) but I'm under no illusions about it. High oil prices would make things incredibly difficult and people would probably steal what I grow if things get really tough so I don't see it as any kind of survival stash.

Interesting comments about climate change too.

 

[mr dazzler]

Well firecrest, for all that th UK "poor" resent the UK "rich", I am sure that the UK "poor" are resented in turn by the majority of the worlds population - those who actually are poor. SO if there is to be some "grand levelling" I hope it will also cover all the truly poor. Lets face it even the UK "poor" buy the goods they use cheaply because they in turn exploit workers abroad who toil in fields and factories for very little,

"Rich" and "poor" are relative terms.

Those who whinge about how hard done by in this country should take a look around the world and understand just how fortunate they are! They also have the opportunity to earn what they want by effort, ingenuity or luck.

If we are going to "even things out" it should surely be with all mankind - that would see all UK citizens giving up about 90% of what they own and consume. They are only UK citizens by an accident of birth (luck). Indeed many have inherited unimaginable wealth (from the standpoint of a Rwandan refugee). Strange though how so many who wish to lay claim to other peoples possesions don't seem to give up their own to those who have even less.

I think theres a word for that,

Red

LOL This remind's me of a (unnamed) factory I worked in where thieving was endemic, I mean a really serious problem, they even started to do spot checks at one time, and several managers were in it too (one ended up in prison) Anything from boxe's of screws, bolts, glass, hinge's, lock's, complete doors/windows/conservatories, rolls of lead. The BOGOF scam involving lorries and "replacement window units" for ones damaged in transit, etc etc. Now I have views on thieving, I think it is wrong under any circumstances, period. I dont see it in relativistic term's, its simple moral conviction on my part that it is something which is not right, its wrong. I came under enormous peer pressure at one time to "pass along" various items from my department, and was hugely unpopular when I said NO! My view was why is it OK to steal from the factory? Oh well those c#### can afford to lose it. I would say So why do you call the police if someone is stealing your car or stereo or wallet, the thief evidently thinks you can afford to lose it!?? "Ah well thats fookin different" Eventually the factory shut down it was operating at a loss and the owners didnt care to invest any more in it.

 

[firecrest]

Well firecrest, for all that th UK "poor" resent the UK "rich", I am sure that the UK "poor" are resented in turn by the majority of the worlds population - those who actually are poor. SO if there is to be some "grand levelling" I hope it will also cover all the truly poor. Lets face it even the UK "poor" buy the goods they use cheaply because they in turn exploit workers abroad who toil in fields and factories for very little,

"Rich" and "poor" are relative terms.

Those who whinge about how hard done by in this country should take a look around the world and understand just how fortunate they are! They also have the opportunity to earn what they want by effort, ingenuity or luck.

If we are going to "even things out" it should surely be with all mankind - that would see all UK citizens giving up about 90&#37; of what they own and consume. They are only UK citizens by an accident of birth (luck). Indeed many have inherited unimaginable wealth (from the standpoint of a Rwandan refugee). Strange though how so many who wish to lay claim to other peoples possesions don't seem to give up their own to those who have even less.

I think theres a word for that,

Red

Oh unquestionably so. if you have food, clean water and shelter you cannot be considered poor by any terms. But what makes you think anybody has talked about levelling out, or that in doing so a person doesnt really want to , and so is a hypocrite? I suspect it bothers you more than me! Your arguement that people are unwilling to share wealth is not an arguement about socialism (no currently political standpoint argues any such thing, and communism fails because of this) its an admittance that the currently system is inherantly unfair and built on the backs of the poor. If all money were to be shared out equally then nobody would need to work and people would begin to starve, not through lack of money, but lack of wealth.
Perhaps a way of life where money dominates so strongly is what the problem is? Perhaps it is because 1% of the population owns 99% of the wealth? And that vast swaithes of land can be closed to the public so one man with a gun can shoot his pheasants on it? Thank goodness for the right to ramble act!

 

[British Red]

Firecrest,

My argument that people in the UK "don't really want to" is simple. What's stopping them giving their money away now? All they have to do is walk in a charity office and hand it over. So, given they haven't done so, what they really want is to enjoy the money they already have....oh and they would like some of another persons too. Being privileged to live in one of the most affluent societies on Earth is not enough, they claim it is "unfair" and want more - without adressing the fact they are already massively privileged.

If any individual member of UK society wants to be "fair" and stop being society being "built on the backs of the poor" all they have to do is give most of their money and possession to the third world.

But, strangely, they don't so that. So they carry on being priveleged and still somehow find cause for complaint. Its that kind of ingratitude of how lucky they are that I find chafes a little - along with the assumption that they are entitled to yet more.

It doesn't "bother me" that the world is full of people who would rather claim other property than work for their own, but I will call them on any assumed moral high ground.

We are all hugely lucky to live in one of the most affluent of times in one of the most affluent of countries.

Red

 

[firecrest]

You missed the point of what I said. It would make no difference at all to give money to the third world because it is wealth they lack, not money. Within one year all the shared money would be clumping together back into the hands of a few people. Money and the distribution of wealth is not the problem, The problem is the system we currently rely on which needs poverty to exist. It sounds to me that it easier for you to resign yourself to the idea that `if other people don't I can call them hypocrites and live a little easier` Or that you think the system of unfairness is so unchangable its not your fault at all you have a vast amount more than other people and so you might as well enjoy it.
In 2006 I was flat broke. I had saved up money, and I went to Kenya. out of my final £300 (which is ALL the money I had, including all assets) I spent £50 on excercise books and equipment for a local school out there. It did not make a difference and I do not pretend it did. The things donated were tipexed out of the book when I next look and so probably never reached the children but were sold on by the teachers. This is precisely what would happen if wealth were to be distrubted. For poor people to get themselves out of poverty, they need the land to stop being bought from under their feet, they need connections into the world and an infrastructure. That doesnt just go for africa but all countries.
It may not make a difference, but I dare you give that percentage of your own money to a cause, seems as you are fond of calling people `that word`