Are we all enjoying the low fuel costs

[andybysea]

British Red let me try and answer this,

Quote:
Originally Posted by andybysea
its up to them to help themselves,

I'm sure the people wealthier than you use the same sentiment about you



Quote:
It is not the British poor who import /or exploit workers from poor countries, it is rich business who do this to make maximum profit then sell to British poor who buy stuff from china etc because its cheaper,

And if you didn't buy it, they wouldn't import it. Simple.



Quote:
yes i feel sorry for the peoples of Asia and Africa, but nothing i say over here would help them

Why don't you give them some of your money? You have more than your fair share...in Global terms.

If everyone being equal is the way to go, then surely thats right and proper.

Or do you mean everyone in the UK should get a fair share but people not lucky enough to be born here should starve?

Once you go down this "others have more than me and I want some of it" line, you need to accept that, in reality, every UK citizen has far more than most of the rest of the world. So get prepared to live on a lot less if you want to go down the "sharing out" road. Unless of course its all about taking and not about giving?

Or is it just about the UK?



MY RESPONSE(SORRY TO THICK TO USE QUOTE THINGY)
Firstly im not saying im poorer than a African(for eg) and im not saying because im British so i should be wealthy, believe it or not im quite happy with my lot at the moment, im saying that those that have and those that (well seeing as im in Britain and talking about British i cant say poor without getting slandered) are on the other end of the spectrum is getting worse, and you and other people telling them to do something about it is insulting, and what id expect a MP to say .To me your implying that people sit back and dont do anything so they are poor, but if they did something they'd be rich.Most people do work long hours for very little and rely on credit cards to foolishly boost the income which ends up getting them into more problems simply because they dont earn enough to clothe feed and pay bills in one of the worlds richest counties. As for buying imported goods like i said but you seem to have not noticed i try not to but often you dont have a choice because there isnt a viable alternative, i still stick to the idea its greedy business's that buy from cheaply produced counties to maximize profit, and people are for want of a better word now hooked, with no alternative. Finally regarding why dont i give them my money, well (1) if i gave them my money what there is of it, then id be lifting them out of poverty and putting myself into it so how does that help? this country does give a hell of alot 39million last comic relief given i bet by and large, by the less well off in this society,whilst the mega millionaire rock stars and tv so called A listers give there time, which about sums it up for me. I live in the UK so i talk about Uk differances and inequalities, taking on world issues is a little to much for a humble pleb like me.Im just trying to highlight the orignal point i made that those who have now, would still be the ones who have once fuel goes way up or becomes totally unavailable for the common man no matter how hard he/she works.

 

[harryhaller]

Wood Gasification

Upto about the 1920's the UK was well ahead of the world in cars run on wood gas. But BP had gained an importance so great that a road tax was introduced which favoured petrol driven cars.

During the second world war, 90pc of cars in Denmark ran on wood gas - and nowadays farmers in Austria are getting out the old machinery which they used during the war which ran on wood gas and are starting using them again.

British Petroleum (BP) is the largest company in the UK, it is also the largest company in the EU - far more powerful than Daimler-Benz etc. Its role in the Iraq war has been kept quiet by the BBC etc. So that although the BBC 6'o clock news one day announced, with funeral march atmosphere, that BP was closing its Alaskan oil operations due to oil pipeline problems - it did not announce that the then boss of BP, Lord Brown, had gone down personally to Turkey to open a pipeline from Iraq and the Caspian sea which would deliver twice as much oil as was lost in Alaskan, How strange that the BBC considered the one item important enough to report - but the other item, which was twice as important, was not reported. BTW - BP was, the last I heard, renegotiating its position in Alaska.

At the beginning of Tony Blair's career we see him being chummy with Putin - and hey - what a swell guy Putin is! This was because Russia had signed a deal with BP.

Now Russia is the big bad wolf -why? Because they have fallen out with BP and cancelled its contracts in Russia.

Mr. Gaddafi was once the big bad guy as well - but not anymore!!!! He has now signed HUGE contracts with BP.

In Algeria in the early 90's hundreds of thousands of people were being massacred and the European press and media were full of it - but not the BBC. Why? Because BP has huge contracts with the Algerian government and the BBC, as usual under orders, was told not to report on it in case it destabilised the Algerian government and the contracts would then be lost.

In the 1950's there were electric trolley buses in London and British Rail even had electric articulated light lorries - these were all got rid of in favour of petrol. The only reason why we still have electric milk-floats is because they wouldn't use enough petrol probably.

What is Afghanistan about? Oil. Why?? Because Afghanistan and Pakistan are needed for oil pipelines from the huge fields around the Caspian Sea to the Indian ocean. Who is the President of Afghanistan? He was the chief negotiator for an american oilpipeline company which was bidding to build pipelines through Afghanistan. He was negotiating with the Taliban - they wanted to give the contract to an italian company. Guess who has now got the contract? No prizes.

When you hear of military action in Pakistan bear all this in mind.

It is a myth that we need petrol - we can use wood gas and other material.

For bushcrafters this would be great because that would give the planting of forests national importance.

You wll never find out the truth in the mass media - but don't believe me - indeed don't believe anyone - find out these things for yourself.

But rest assured that petrol is not only destroying the climate - the wars and politics behind it are destroying cultures and killing hundreds and thousands of people.

They die because of our ignorance, naivity and blind childish trust.

And if anyone thinks this is just a rant, I will post the links to backup my statements.

I hope it won't be necessary because as bushcrafters we should have a basic instinct for self-sufficiency, independence (physical as well as independence of thought) and love of nature.

 

[preacherman]

Isn't that a bit like trying to get a violent offender to see the error of their ways by repeatedly beating them with a stick?

Increasing costs to reduce consumption could only ever have any merit if the extra revenue was 100% ringfenced to be invested in alternative fuels research. Even then the political power of the oil industry will continue to scupper progress.

The state of the planet in 100 or 200 years time is all well and good but we've got shareholders to feed!

Sorry Wanderingblade I have not had internet access till now. I was after a few when I posted originally and maybe was not as clear as I would have liked. I did not mean to " beat people with a stick", I meant more along the lines of " a carrot on the end of a stick " in that reduced consumption means more money in your pocket. My point about price rises focussing the mind about reducing consumption was based on experience. In my job there has been a huge focus on energy management since the price started to rise a couple of years ago. Before this energy was used without any thought for costs or the environment.. Since we implemented energy awareness campaigns we have reduced our energy consumption by about 15%. This reduction in energy had zero effect in the operation of our business but saved alot of money. This kept the bosses happy and reducing our co2 emissions made me feel good because I would like to think that we were making a difference. This was done by changing the behaviour of people, by giving them the information about depleted resources and teaching them how they could make a difference.

In an ideal world the money saved would be put back into energy reduction technology but unfortunately this is not the case in most instances. Businesses are set up to make money and that will never change but if we all think about our behaviour just a little bit we can extend the life of our planet without seriously affecting our lifestyle.

I would not consider myself a serious eco warrior or anything. I eat meat, drive a car, etc. and contribute to the pollution of our atmosphere as much as anyone but I do try to reduce my environmental impact by planning car journeys, buying locally produced food, recycling etc. much like yourself. I think that asking people to think about their behaviour is not alot to ask. If we all did a little bit and just thought about our actions we could make a huge difference. In my experience though you have to use different "carrots" with different people. For some its money and for others just the thought that they can make a difference is enough.That was why I was not overly upset about the price rises. Obviously if the price rose too high then the world would come to a standstill so that will not happen. Even the oil companies depend on our extravagent lifestyles to make a profit so they will be all for keeping energy just about affordable.

I am not sure that we have 100 or 200 years worth of fossil fuels left though. I dont think anybody can say for sure how much fuel is left because the oil companies are not revealing true capacity so as to influence the price. There is no doubt about this.

As I said in my original post I think that as bushcrafters we should lead the way in trying to reduce our environmental impact. We are the people that love nature and the outdoors. Where would we hang our hammocks if all the trees were gone

 

[andybysea]

Harryhaller, not everyone's blind to the goings on of Governments,
alot of the wars over the last 100years have not been as black and white as theyve been painted to be.

 

[inthewids]

^^^No but the government control the media so 90% of the population lap up what they tell them. We need to do a nation wide strike, stop every service, maybe elect another Guy Fawkes? We are headed for worse times while the government, councillors etc keep on with their ridiculous expenses payed bu us. The local councillors up here have just awarded themselves a £13,000 increase per year, on top of £26,000!! Their increase is more than i make in a year!! Im going to Spain in the summer, to work for free, i dont want to give the fat cats anymore money. Oh yeah, im also selling my car just now, that will save me over £3000 a year, my road bike is my new transport.

 

[Wallenstein]

Rich people are no more or less happy than poor people; once your basic needs are sorted (shelter, food and a soft bed) the rest doesn't make much difference.

Anecdotes (not to be confused with data):

- One friend's dad worked v. hard, built his own business, sold it and retired a few years ago with several million in the bank; he sails his yacht (moored in N. Wales) and plays golf and generally enjoys life. My friend only remembers never seeing her dad when she was small and hates the yacht because it represents a lot of broken promises and empty seats at family meals.

- One lad I knew at Cambridge was Indian royalty - he was Prince V., and his dad was a maharajah or something like that. Among other displays of wealth he had a collection of v. expensive rolex watches, each one representing the time his dad missed birthdays / sports days / graduations. "Sorry about that son, here have a rolex to make it up" (it didn't).

- My current manager earns well over £100k, but recently got divorced because he spent all his time working and his missus got fed up. He's here every weekend "just finishing things off". He has a new 5 bedroom house, but the bedrooms are only used once a month when his kids visit for the night.

- Roman Abramovich - worth billions, but no longer lives with his 5 kids 'cos he got caught banging the secretary.

So you can strive to be rich, but it will cost you elsewhere - heatlh, leisure, family etc. Some people manage it all, but generally there's a price to pay.

Being poor is rubbish too, but being rich isn't necessarily the answer.

I don't earn nearly as much as I could but I'm home every day to put my daughter to bed; there's not enough money in the world to keep me in the office rather than being there at bathtime/bedtime.

If you're a Six Sigma specialist in London on £1500/day, you'll not be leaving the office at 5pm

 

[Wallenstein]

Chasing after riches:

A management consultant, on holiday in a African fishing village, watched a little fishing boat dock at the quayside. Noting the quality of the fish, the consultant asked the fisherman how long it had taken to catch them.

"Not very long." answered the fisherman.

"Then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the consultant.

The fisherman explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family.

The consultant asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

"I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, have an afternoon's rest under a coconut tree. In the evenings, I go into the community hall to see my friends, have a few beers, play the drums, and sing a few songs..... I have a full and happy life." replied the fisherman.

The consultant ventured, "I'm a Six Sigma expert and I can help you......usually I charge £1500/day, but I'll give you this advice for free. You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have a large fleet. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to a city here or maybe even in the United Kingdom, from where you can direct your huge enterprise."

"How long would that take?" asked the fisherman.

"Oh, ten, maybe twenty years." replied the consultant.

"And after that?" asked the fisherman.

"After that? That's when it gets really interesting," answered the consultant, laughing,
"When your business gets really big, you can start selling shares in your company and make millions!"

"Millions? Really? And after that?" pressed the fisherman.

"After that you'll be able to retire, move out to a small village by the sea, sleep in late every day, spend time with your family, go fishing, take afternoon naps under a coconut tree, and spend relaxing evenings havings drinks with friends..."

The fisherman smiled and went on his way.

 

[preacherman]

Chasing after riches:

A management consultant, on holiday in a African fishing village, watched a little fishing boat dock at the quayside. Noting the quality of the fish, the consultant asked the fisherman how long it had taken to catch them.

"Not very long." answered the fisherman.

"Then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the consultant.

The fisherman explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family.

The consultant asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

"I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, have an afternoon's rest under a coconut tree. In the evenings, I go into the community hall to see my friends, have a few beers, play the drums, and sing a few songs..... I have a full and happy life." replied the fisherman.

The consultant ventured, "I'm a Six Sigma expert and I can help you......usually I charge £1500/day, but I'll give you this advice for free. You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have a large fleet. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to a city here or maybe even in the United Kingdom, from where you can direct your huge enterprise."

"How long would that take?" asked the fisherman.

"Oh, ten, maybe twenty years." replied the consultant.

"And after that?" asked the fisherman.

"After that? That's when it gets really interesting," answered the consultant, laughing,
"When your business gets really big, you can start selling shares in your company and make millions!"

"Millions? Really? And after that?" pressed the fisherman.

"After that you'll be able to retire, move out to a small village by the sea, sleep in late every day, spend time with your family, go fishing, take afternoon naps under a coconut tree, and spend relaxing evenings havings drinks with friends..."

The fisherman smiled and went on his way.

Brilliant, I love it

 

[andybysea]

But they are only unhappy Wallenstien, these rich people in your stories because they have been selfish with there time, and against others,thats not the money making them unhappy, you could argue that being poor you would still have a father who wasnt there at birthdays or who had an affair,or was late home for meals,albeit for differant reasons thats choice, what im argueing about is the BIG and ever growing divide, between people who genuinely work hard and get sod all, and those who say they work hard and get bl**dy everything.

 

[Wallenstein]

But they are only unhappy Wallenstien, these rich people in your stories because they have been selfish with there time, and against others,thats not the money making them unhappy, you could argue that being poor you would still have a father who wasnt there at birthdays or who had an affair,or was late home for meals,albeit for differant reasons thats choice, what im argueing about is the BIG and ever growing divide, between people who genuinely work hard and get sod all, and those who say they work hard and get bl**dy everything.

No matter how hard work luck and talent will mean some people do better than others.

You can't do much about luck - if I happen to write a book that catches the mood of the nation, I suddenly end up with $1bn like JK Rowling. Or I can produce a heartbreaking work of staggering genuis and sell 30 copies.

I guess that's life - it's always been that way and always will be.

 

[Tripitaka]

Wow! Seems I caused quite a stir there. An interesting debate with some fascinating points of view although as it is clear that my posts are being seen as inflammatory, I'm happy to refrain for the good of the forum.

For my part, I am at the most open-minded I have ever been in my life. There is lots that I don't understand and it's a constant battle to suppress the prejudice that you develop over the years. I value things now that I never did before and also cast aside things that I always thought were valuable. I'm struggling with the concept of socialism but I keep trying.

I love Wallensteins posts; they made me smile. In response to this:

If you're a Six Sigma specialist in London on £1500/day, you'll not be leaving the office at 5pm

I'd very much agree, but add that you wouldn't be moaning about being poor either. It does re-iterate what was said earlier in this thread: Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Wallenstein]

I'd very much agree, but add that you wouldn't be moaning about being poor either. It does re-iterate what was said earlier in this thread: Be careful what you wish for.

Hah... believe me, there are plenty of people who would moan about earning £300k

Bearing in mind you lose tax from that - so it's about £15k a month. But out of that there's the mortgage on the house in Chelsea, plus the weekend place in the Cotswolds and the villa in Provence; school fees for three kids; new X5 every 18 months for the wife, new Porsche for the commute, Bentley for weekends; mooring fees for the boat in Suffolk; Christmas in Bahamas, half-term skiing in Gstaad, Easter in the country house hotel; wife's spa days and clothing costs etc etc.

Depending on how you cut your cloth £1500/day doesn't always seem like a lot.

(I would cope on £1500/day though!)

 

[andybysea]

''Bearing in mind you lose tax from that - so it's about £15k a month. But out of that there's the mortgage on the house in Chelsea, plus the weekend place in the Cotswolds and the villa in Provence; school fees for three kids; new X5 every 18 months for the wife, new Porsche for the commute, Bentley for weekends; mooring fees for the boat in Suffolk; Christmas in Bahamas, half-term skiing in Gstaad, Easter in the country house hotel; wife's spa days and clothing costs etc etc.''

Must be tough for the poor darlings! So is i assume, buying carpet at £100 a square metre and wallpaper for £100 a roll ti's tough at the top! a la fred the shred.

 

[firecrest]

If people are so certain money doesnt bring happiness, then why do the poor die much younger due to stress and depression? anecdotes are nice, and I like the one about the fisherman, but most people are not living a troublefree existance. The fisherman is self-sustaining. He gathers his own food and brings it back to his family. For me that lifestyle would be wonderful. The fisherman doesnt live in a society that tells him he is a failure because he didnt rise to the top of the game, its `his own fault` either for not working hard enough, or for not dreaming hard enough. In a society where people have to pay a mortgage, rent college fees bills , taxes , fines and for their food, which they know is poor quality and contains additives, where the person may not even have a garden to go outside in but lives in a block of flats, then that person does not enjoy the kind of quality of life that the fisherman has, hence the hunter-gatherer may not have money but he has wealth. A low income person in England may have more money than him but they are not free in the same way and so they do not have wealth. I suspect that is why many of us are attracted to bushcraft in the first place.
Now Im not trying to say the poor englander is worse off than a poor person in the third world, but that our fisherman friend does not belong among the poor of either group.

 

[firecrest]

Anyways, if anybody is finding their money isn't, making them happy, they can always give to me. I tell you now it will make ME happy!!!

 

[British Red]

In a society where people have to pay a mortgage, rent college fees bills , taxes , fines and for their food,

Oh come on, no-one has to pay a mortgage, or college fees or fines. Those are all things they choose to pay. Rent, taxes and food - fine, but no-one has to pay a mortgage. I don't. I didn't go to college and have never had to pay a fine.

Everyone, everywhere pays for their food and shelter - either by effort or exchanging that effort for money which in turn pays for their food and shelter. Taxes pay for things like healthcare which I for one would not want to do without.

You might define wealth as "freedom" - but freedom to die from lack of healthcare, suffer high infant mortality and lack of care for the disabled is not a freedom I choose to embrace.

I suggest that the reality of your definition of "wealth" as the lifestyle of a hunter gatherer, if offered to the majority of people in the UK would not be their definition of wealth.

Red

 

[firecrest]

oh Yawn. There you go again thwarting words....

I was talking about the metaphor. The guy is happy because is fishes and its enough for him and his family. he spends the rest of the day swanning around doing as he pleases. If you arent working all the hours god sends to keep your head above the water then you are experiencing a kind of wealth. Nobody says the guy does not have access to healthcare, what makes you think he doesnt? we cannot encompass every scenario because that means personally knowing the situations of 6 billion people.
As for itemising the list of expenses I gave you, you are being over specific. My point was to contrast a life of no excess complication to one that has a lot. Forget whether we call it a mortgage or rent, or fine or college bill, many people are awake at night wondering where the heck the money is going to materialise from to keep the food on the table, the repo men from the door and the roof over their head from whatever it is that is eating their money, be it mortgage , loan shark ,fine or fee. If you think this is easy then by all means lets swap places for a week.
Lets see you and your partner live on six grand a year when you both have disabilities that are currently preventing you from earning more.
People pay a mortgage so they may have some property. People chose to go to college to attempt to better themselves. You are saying they have a choice - sure they have a choice - work a terrible job or be unemployed. gamble your life savings on college to better your situation or continue in misery. Eat poor quality food or eat nothing.

And Im sure you are going to tell me to be grateful for these `choices` because some people in the world have no choice only the latter of each point. But that does not address the situation, it only deflects it.
May I ask how it is you dont have a mortgage, or have not needed to go to college, and how this is applicable to everybody ,I can avoid doing these things yet live a life free from poverty or servitude? ( I want to retire some day , I do hope you can work that into the equation)

 

[wanderingblade]

Money can't make you happy - but it's bloody good at getting rid of alot of the things that make you sad.

Money has a certain power - and like any power, it's the way you use it that determines your fate.

 

[harryhaller]

Money has a certain power - and like any power, it's the way you use it that determines your fate.

You mean it's the way that money uses and controls you that determines your fate.

 

[traderran]

Oh come on, no-one has to pay a mortgage, or college fees or fines. Those are all things they choose to pay. Rent, taxes and food - fine, but no-one has to pay a mortgage. I don't. I didn't go to college and have never had to pay a fine.

Everyone, everywhere pays for their food and shelter - either by effort or exchanging that effort for money which in turn pays for their food and shelter. Taxes pay for things like healthcare which I for one would not want to do without.

You might define wealth as "freedom" - but freedom to die from lack of healthcare, suffer high infant mortality and lack of care for the disabled is not a freedom I choose to embrace.

I suggest that the reality of your definition of "wealth" as the lifestyle of a hunter gatherer, if offered to the majority of people in the UK would not be their definition of wealth.

Red

Ye we have to pay for our Health insurance over hear to the tune
of 750.00 a month for my wife and me. and that comes out of our pockets