Plans to raise fuel duty due in a couple of weeks 
http://www.petrolprices.com/blog/duty-rise-set-to-bring-fuel-tax-to-in-weeks-110.html
http://www.petrolprices.com/blog/duty-rise-set-to-bring-fuel-tax-to-in-weeks-110.html
Are we all enjoying the low fuel costs
- Thread starter Simon
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robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
personally the sooner fuel hits £30 a gallon the better as far as I am concerned. I think our grandkids will be simply incredulous at what we did with the oil.
yep, great idea, then only govt officials (they'll get the lions share of the £30) the police and military (and rich people of course) will be able to fly or drive. The rest of us will doubtless be lectured and guilt tripped to death by FOE george monbiot and greenpiece and will have to walk (or get a donkey or council licenced rickshaw) to get to work
I can just see the farmers round here deciding to dump their tractors and get teams of oxen in, or gangs of labourers weeding the fields with hoes 
.
I agree only the poor will suffer as usual, surely if your worried about climate change(personnely think its inevitable and being used as a tax excuse) the best thing would be to each have a allowance per week but keep the price the same? but there again that hits long distance drivers, your taxed if you do and your taxed if you dont! regarding the thread title i wouldnt call the prices low,just lower than the complete rip off prices of a few months ago,and by the way i dont even drive so dont use the stuff myself but the misses travels quite alot.
An observation:
Our whole society is based on communication powered by fossil fuels.
This will have to change when these fuels run out.
An exponential increase in consumption / capita means that even though it will diminish gradually we will experience it as an abrupt shortage.
It is important to not be the last one without options when this happens.
If we make more fuelefficient cars the "Jevons Paradox" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox says that we will only drive more.
As much as I hate the fact that as fuel gets more expensive it effects poor people more than rich, the only way to make people use less is to make it more expensive by taxing it.
Rationing it would be an option but much harder to do and no less unfair.
It´s disturbing and unfair but it is a logical conclusion.
Our whole society is based on communication powered by fossil fuels.
This will have to change when these fuels run out.
An exponential increase in consumption / capita means that even though it will diminish gradually we will experience it as an abrupt shortage.
It is important to not be the last one without options when this happens.
If we make more fuelefficient cars the "Jevons Paradox" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox says that we will only drive more.
As much as I hate the fact that as fuel gets more expensive it effects poor people more than rich, the only way to make people use less is to make it more expensive by taxing it.
Rationing it would be an option but much harder to do and no less unfair.
It´s disturbing and unfair but it is a logical conclusion.
A common misconception.
This old excuse has repeatedly been used as an excuse for raising taxes on tobacco and alcohol.
Make things more expensive and people will make sacrafices in other areas to get by - including saving less / paying less into investments or pensions as there is less 'disposable' income. And we all know whaere that road leads.
And don't get me started on the whole 'climate change' fallacy.
Wanderingblade, im glad at least two people think the same on the climate change issue, climates do change ,its happened before and will happen again, and no one can do anything about it,yep maybe slow it down? and man may be contributing. But with or without mans influence it happens so why do we need to pay more for the privaledge?As for petrol, Husky i dont agree that both options are unfair, surely if everyone gets the same qouter,then maybe needs more they then pay through the nose for the extra,that is better than putting up the price up so only the poor suffer(theres more poor than rich so your hurting the majority i say hurt the ones who can afford to be hurt) Its always us plebs that feel it. Suddenly as i type this i come to realise this aint ever going to happen especially in this country the old boys network which is the government look after its own,so my proposal is DOOMED!
>>>>Originally Posted by Husky View Post
>>>>.....the only way to make people use less is to make it more expensive by taxing it.
>>A common misconception.
Well, it's common, but not misconceived. That's the reason we don't all drive Land Rovers, or buy holiday homes in the Gower Peninsula; because we don't have enough money. Adam Smiths' invisible hand. Whether fuel gets more expensive through scarcity or taxation doesn't influence the fact that you'll get less for however much you can afford to spend on it.
>>>>.....the only way to make people use less is to make it more expensive by taxing it.
>>A common misconception.
Well, it's common, but not misconceived. That's the reason we don't all drive Land Rovers, or buy holiday homes in the Gower Peninsula; because we don't have enough money. Adam Smiths' invisible hand. Whether fuel gets more expensive through scarcity or taxation doesn't influence the fact that you'll get less for however much you can afford to spend on it.
Western civilisation is completely and utterly dependent on oil. There will be a direct correlation between rising oil prices/ it's scarcity and unemployment/economic meltdown/social upheaval/complete society breakdown. All this, as well as the current economic fiasco we have unfolding before us!
Nah that'll never happen!! ha,, we are walking into a nightmare with total complacency.
To all climate change deniers,,,,,get with the program dudes. 99.9% of scientists with any credibility know this is reality.
Best just to get out and enjoy the woods while we can ehh,,,,,could get a lot more crowded out there soon
Nah that'll never happen!! ha,, we are walking into a nightmare with total complacency.
To all climate change deniers,,,,,get with the program dudes. 99.9% of scientists with any credibility know this is reality.
Best just to get out and enjoy the woods while we can ehh,,,,,could get a lot more crowded out there soon
Isn't it about time all the big fuel companies started investing some money in alternative fuel solutions ?
They've all been buying patents and copyrights from inventors for the last three decades but have locked them all away, so we keep funding their six figure bonuses every year and destroying our planet in the process.
They've all been buying patents and copyrights from inventors for the last three decades but have locked them all away, so we keep funding their six figure bonuses every year and destroying our planet in the process.
Logic? Where is the logic in pricing fuel and all forms of motorised transport to a level,whereby it is only available to the elite.
This would also remember dramatically increase the cost of everything we buy or use.
As already stated it has been tried with alcohol and tobacco and it doesnt work,we are as addicted to our cars as some are to the afforementioned drugs.
If you really believe this is a viable solution then you need to do some research instead of spouting rubbish.
To all climate change deniers,,,,,get with the program dudes. 99.9% of scientists with any credibility know this is reality.
Best just to get out and enjoy the woods while we can ehh,,,,,could get a lot more crowded out there soon
Well wrong again.
There is a vast lobby of very eminent scientists,who firmly believe that the governments thinking is at best flawed and at worst a huge con.
Nobody is denying climate change what we are denying is that this change has been brought about by the human race,via emissions etc.
Here is one of the scientists
GS
Not forgetting of course that six months after the £30 gallon, you will meet the £30 loaf of bread. When fossil fuel becomes unaffordable in this country ten of millions will die. We cannot feed ourselves and without fossil fuel based fertilisers, mechanised farming and imported fuel, there simply will not be enough food to go around.
When you see the £30 gallon, it is not a question of who will drive, but who will eat.
Be careful what you wish for.........
Wines kicking it, so............................
Not quite.
We don't all have Land Rovers or Holiday homes because there are either cheaper alternatives or you can do without them.
We need our cars to get to work / pick up the kids / get the shopping / get to appointments / visit friend or relatives / get somewhere quick in an emergency etc, etc, etc. Sure, you could do without a car but aside for food, shelter and water there is little else you couldn't get by without, doesn't mean it's a luxury or an indulgence.
When considering Global Warming we need to bear in mind:
A) When in the history of the universe has the climate NOT been changing?
B) Why is there a general assumption that climate change is bad for the Earth? No, it is bad for US - the Earth will soldier on regardless of whether we are here or not. Our little Earth has survived countless 'ecological disasters' in it's 4 billion year history, many far worse than anything we could do and it's still here all green and nice.
C) Why, for decades were ecologists and environmentalists ignored, ridiculed and belittled when they dared claim any kind of ecological dangers - then all of a sudden it's all carbon footprints and recycled bog roll - because it was realised that there is no better taxation then a moral taxation. Are we to believe the world leaders had a sudden crisis of conscience and realised the error of their gas guzzling ways?
It's the same psycology as the passing in the US of the 'Patriot Act' which hacked away at US citizens privicy rights - who would ever dare to oppose the Patriot Act, only a non-patriot surely? And who would oppose measures to help our poor dying planet? Only some kind of Ming the Merciless wannabe?
90% of all species that have ever lived are extinct - many if not most due to changes in environment and climate. We either adapt or die. This general belief that we can influence to any great degree what the climate does or does not do smacks of sheer arrogance.
Having said that I do believe we should recycle, manage waste, be mindful of what we use - but only through respect for our environment, not because of fatally flawed forecasts or best guesses.
Not quite.
We don't all have Land Rovers or Holiday homes because there are either cheaper alternatives or you can do without them.
We need our cars to get to work / pick up the kids / get the shopping / get to appointments / visit friend or relatives / get somewhere quick in an emergency etc, etc, etc. Sure, you could do without a car but aside for food, shelter and water there is little else you couldn't get by without, doesn't mean it's a luxury or an indulgence.
When considering Global Warming we need to bear in mind:
A) When in the history of the universe has the climate NOT been changing?
B) Why is there a general assumption that climate change is bad for the Earth? No, it is bad for US - the Earth will soldier on regardless of whether we are here or not. Our little Earth has survived countless 'ecological disasters' in it's 4 billion year history, many far worse than anything we could do and it's still here all green and nice.
C) Why, for decades were ecologists and environmentalists ignored, ridiculed and belittled when they dared claim any kind of ecological dangers - then all of a sudden it's all carbon footprints and recycled bog roll - because it was realised that there is no better taxation then a moral taxation. Are we to believe the world leaders had a sudden crisis of conscience and realised the error of their gas guzzling ways?
It's the same psycology as the passing in the US of the 'Patriot Act' which hacked away at US citizens privicy rights - who would ever dare to oppose the Patriot Act, only a non-patriot surely? And who would oppose measures to help our poor dying planet? Only some kind of Ming the Merciless wannabe?
90% of all species that have ever lived are extinct - many if not most due to changes in environment and climate. We either adapt or die. This general belief that we can influence to any great degree what the climate does or does not do smacks of sheer arrogance.
Having said that I do believe we should recycle, manage waste, be mindful of what we use - but only through respect for our environment, not because of fatally flawed forecasts or best guesses.
>>Where is the logic in pricing fuel and all forms of motorised transport to a level,whereby it is only available to the elite.
and another post
>>Sure, you could do without a car but aside for food, shelter and water there is little else you couldn't get by without, doesn't mean it's a luxury or an indulgence.
The thing is, fuel (petrol, I guess is what we're talking about)) is already priced so that it is only available to the elite. We _are_ the elite, or haven't you noticed that 80% of the worlds population don't own a car and never will. It is a luxury. We've enjoyed artificially cheap fuel for several generations and we've tailored our lifstyles accordingly. Weekly commute of 500 miles? Who was doing that 100 years ago?. If fuel had been even cheaper (and aviation laws more relaxed) then we'd all have private helicopters, and now we'd complain that we can't afford to run the Bell any more and we're having to downsize to terrestrial transport. Better to tax fossil fuels to give us a taste of the future and encourage people to readjust.
and another post
>>Sure, you could do without a car but aside for food, shelter and water there is little else you couldn't get by without, doesn't mean it's a luxury or an indulgence.
The thing is, fuel (petrol, I guess is what we're talking about)) is already priced so that it is only available to the elite. We _are_ the elite, or haven't you noticed that 80% of the worlds population don't own a car and never will. It is a luxury. We've enjoyed artificially cheap fuel for several generations and we've tailored our lifstyles accordingly. Weekly commute of 500 miles? Who was doing that 100 years ago?. If fuel had been even cheaper (and aviation laws more relaxed) then we'd all have private helicopters, and now we'd complain that we can't afford to run the Bell any more and we're having to downsize to terrestrial transport. Better to tax fossil fuels to give us a taste of the future and encourage people to readjust.
Oops!
My post was obviously a can of worms that I did not intend.
I did not mean to bring up the subject of global warming and it doesn´t need to be.
Any serious government realizes that it is neccesary to become independant on fossil fuels in the near future.
This can be done from top down or bottom up.
What does it take to make people change a convenient habbit?
I can only speak of what I know and I live in the second most heavily taxed nation on earth (we used to lead but Denmark pased us last year).
Since fuel was made even more expensive a couple of years ago, swedes have consumed less petrol while driving more! Obviously ecodriving became interesting when prices started to hurt.
Bifuel cars are driven on ethanol as long as it is cheaper but when the price of petrol went down due to the economic crises, demand for ethanol almost disappeared.
Swedes drink a lot of alcohol but consumption rocketed when we joined the EU and were able to drive to denmark or germany and fill the car with the tax free limit.
Whether we like it or not prices are the way to control behaviour.
If it only affects the poor then the tax is to low. It needs to be high enough to affect the majority of people.
Please get me right.
I am not saying it is right but observing that this is how it works.
When will the market start producing alternatives to fossil fuel powered comunication?
When the government tells them to or when the majority of possible customers demand it?
My post was obviously a can of worms that I did not intend.
I did not mean to bring up the subject of global warming and it doesn´t need to be.
Any serious government realizes that it is neccesary to become independant on fossil fuels in the near future.
This can be done from top down or bottom up.
What does it take to make people change a convenient habbit?
I can only speak of what I know and I live in the second most heavily taxed nation on earth (we used to lead but Denmark pased us last year).
Since fuel was made even more expensive a couple of years ago, swedes have consumed less petrol while driving more! Obviously ecodriving became interesting when prices started to hurt.
Bifuel cars are driven on ethanol as long as it is cheaper but when the price of petrol went down due to the economic crises, demand for ethanol almost disappeared.
Swedes drink a lot of alcohol but consumption rocketed when we joined the EU and were able to drive to denmark or germany and fill the car with the tax free limit.
Whether we like it or not prices are the way to control behaviour.
If it only affects the poor then the tax is to low. It needs to be high enough to affect the majority of people.
Please get me right.
I am not saying it is right but observing that this is how it works.
When will the market start producing alternatives to fossil fuel powered comunication?
When the government tells them to or when the majority of possible customers demand it?
This is absolutely true and that is why we NEED either alternative fuel or an alternatively organised society before, or at the latest when, oil becomes scarce.
MJK123, good post and yes in a world outlook us Westerners are elite but in our own countries most of us just get by,and these new fuels and vehicles to match will be totally out of alot of peoples price range,hey its the 21st century but i still need coal to heat my house no coal no heat, i cant afford to have all new heating system put in, unfortunately in this world its look after yourself, and your own. Selfishly i know, but i only consider how i will pay my bills and feed my kids not what people in Africa etc are doing and im sure they think the same.
Oh dear your beginning to sound like Harold macmillan ("you never had it so good"-so quit belly aching)
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