As with all complex issues, it's all too easy to simplify them so that they become more manageable, but in doing so, we view it from a very myopic perspective and can become blinkered to some very important factors.
Are we all enjoying the low fuel costs
- Thread starter Simon
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Of course some people are 'financially poor' because of the decisions made by the 'financially rich'
And while not wanting to stray into 'dodgy' territory for this forum, I do find a little odd that a small percentage of the people of Britain own most of the land and power simply because some distant ancestor once lopped of a French knights head, or whose family were or were not Catholic at the right time.
Not sure what "it" is. If we are talking about wealth at any level then I disagree. I have never owned much land. I do agree that had I have had some foresight to buy a couple of small flats in London many years ago then I would have more financial wealth than I have now. However, I have still managed to be comfortably off without having any of that linked to land.
In fact, as I think about it, I could buy up 3 or 4 acres next week at circa £2500 an acre but I can't see how that would make me more financially wealthy. Sure, I'd get a rental income but it would take many years to get the capital outlay back.
<chuckle> take a look at systems thinking (google it). Study that in depth and it will change your view, and your comment. The ability to simplify complexity and understand the systems at work make it easy to see those important factors, rather than be blinkered by them. I do agree that trying to take a view on complexity when affected by an emotional standpoint means that there is a tendency to ignore some important factors that do not support your chosen point of view. The ability to recognise this trait within oneself and to counter it willingly is a major step towards open-mindedness.
Of course some people are 'financially poor' because of the decisions made by the 'financially rich'
How so?
Tripitaka wrote,
''2) Why are "the poor" so bitter and resentful of "the rich"? I was born into a very poor family and made a decision at an early age to change that for myself and my descendents. I have done that; I don't consider myself to be rich but I'm certainly not poor in financial terms. I have worked hard, been smart and taken every opportunity regardless of the sacrifice. I have suffered setbacks and recovered from them; had good fortune and invested through sharing with others. People are financially rich or poor because of the decisions they have taken in their life. An emotive subject for sure but you can't have it all.''
__________________
That is just so not true on many levels, 1. The old government cliche if you work hard, so people who are in the armed forces,or who are miners,or road sweepers dont work hard?
well i think they do but they certainly are'nt rich, its used now to fund city wages, eg this banker works hard or this exec works hard, by that they mean has lunches in top hotels,
travels the world first class,etc etc sits behind a large desk and makes decisions good or bad that affect us all,and gets paid a kings ransom for doing so, yep maybe works long hours but hard work? please define.I worked nights for 6yrs 5 nights a week 12hrs a night till being made redundant, i now look after our 3 young (all under 8) children, and my misses was lucky to get a good job, but she works 11hrs a day 5 to six days a week . I think she and in the past, i worked hard but are we rich NO, millions of people all have this kind of life and for you to say that if you work hard you will be rich, WELL ITS A BIT RICH! to say the least. Most people who are mega rich either come from money or have had lucky breaks, a very small percentage come from working hard, you ask anyone who works do they work hard in there job or do they just doss about, i think you know what answer you''ll get, and if you dont pull your weight i cant see many employers keeping you on, lets face it theres plenty to take your job. sorry posted before seeing sandbenders post, i agree with the lords land owners thing most now sit in priveliged postions because they distant relatives either took the right side in a battle or that they where bullies.
''2) Why are "the poor" so bitter and resentful of "the rich"? I was born into a very poor family and made a decision at an early age to change that for myself and my descendents. I have done that; I don't consider myself to be rich but I'm certainly not poor in financial terms. I have worked hard, been smart and taken every opportunity regardless of the sacrifice. I have suffered setbacks and recovered from them; had good fortune and invested through sharing with others. People are financially rich or poor because of the decisions they have taken in their life. An emotive subject for sure but you can't have it all.''
__________________
That is just so not true on many levels, 1. The old government cliche if you work hard, so people who are in the armed forces,or who are miners,or road sweepers dont work hard?
well i think they do but they certainly are'nt rich, its used now to fund city wages, eg this banker works hard or this exec works hard, by that they mean has lunches in top hotels,
travels the world first class,etc etc sits behind a large desk and makes decisions good or bad that affect us all,and gets paid a kings ransom for doing so, yep maybe works long hours but hard work? please define.I worked nights for 6yrs 5 nights a week 12hrs a night till being made redundant, i now look after our 3 young (all under 8) children, and my misses was lucky to get a good job, but she works 11hrs a day 5 to six days a week . I think she and in the past, i worked hard but are we rich NO, millions of people all have this kind of life and for you to say that if you work hard you will be rich, WELL ITS A BIT RICH! to say the least. Most people who are mega rich either come from money or have had lucky breaks, a very small percentage come from working hard, you ask anyone who works do they work hard in there job or do they just doss about, i think you know what answer you''ll get, and if you dont pull your weight i cant see many employers keeping you on, lets face it theres plenty to take your job. sorry posted before seeing sandbenders post, i agree with the lords land owners thing most now sit in priveliged postions because they distant relatives either took the right side in a battle or that they where bullies.
Ref your line "We have met the enemy and he is us" mate, it is polite to quote the authors Walt & Selby Kelly from their cartoon Pogo and referencing a growing concern for conservation!
See http://www.bpib.com/kelly.htm
Just an observation
Walt & Selby Kelly from their cartoon Pogo and referencing a growing concern for conservation!See http://www.bpib.com/kelly.htm
Just an observation
Thanks for this post mate as I am a serving member of the forces and for many years did not own property due to the frenetic lifestyle of being in the RAF. We eventually bought our own home and sold it due to the fact that being fragmented from my family was adversely affecting our lives. So we sold and now are back in families quarters. So I have not been lucky enough to buy when property was cheap and still own a nice fat lump of capital.
Also with regard to the armed forces salary, well if you calculate the capitation rate of my hours worked, (especially on operations,) , I barely make the minimum wage and I am at a reasonable rank. Junior airman and soldiers are paid less than minimum wage, eg, a parking ticket issuer for any local authority gets paid more than them, and most people when you go to work don't actively try to kill you!
I have worked hard all my life and am NOT rich so Tripitaka you theory is wrong mate.
Sure. You'll note that I never made mention of "working hard". (see EDIT below) Lots of people work hard. The soldier is low paid because he chose to join the army. He knew the wages were poor before he signed up; no one misled him or changed the rules. The banker is wealthy because he took a decision to enter a profession that has potential for high earnings and then worked smart to position him/herself into that position. I don't think either of us are qualified to state what constitues "hard work" outside our own sphere though. I do know that smart work gets you further than hard work from my own experience.
Once again, I didn't mention "working hard"; (see EDIT below) only that we are where we are because of the decisions we made or more pertinently did not make (errors of comission vs errors of omission).
An understandable if misinformed view in my opinion. There aren't many mega rich about though but I wonder what ancient families Alan Sugar and Richard Branson came from? Or Simon Cowell for that matter.
EDIT:
Apologies for the misunderstanding in my original post that people appear to have zoomed in on. The mention of "working hard" was pertinent to me, not others. The intention of the post is to point out that were are where we are due to the decisions we take, first and formost. If you make the wrong choice, you can work hard all your life without progress.
Apologies for the misunderstanding in my original post that people appear to have zoomed in on. The mention of "working hard" was pertinent to me, not others. The intention of the post is to point out that were are where we are due to the decisions we take, first and formost. If you make the wrong choice, you can work hard all your life without progress.
No so and I have posted up and edit as people seem to be zooming into that aspect. You are where you are because you decided to join the forces. I think our forces do a superb job in very difficult circumstances but surely you didn't sign up to become rich?
Where to begin?
A nearby district mayor is in prison awaiting trial for engaging in dodgy property deals, city owned residential blocks were sold off to private companies for demolition or 'urban regeneration'.
The properties were the property of the district and weren't his to sell.
The properties weren't sold to the highest bidder or the to the firm with the best plan, instead they were sold to the companies that gave him the biggest back hander.
Many of the properties were of cultural and historical importance (Budapests Jewish Quarter), out of desire to make money as quickly as possible some of those properties were simply demolished.
People who'd lived in these houses since the 1940's were evicted, some are now homeless.
So there is an example of a very rich (and foreign) property developer using his wealth to not only destroy the lives of little people but also to smash irreplaceable buildings of great cultural worth.
There is another side of the coin of course, George Soros (better known for messing up the European Exchange Rate Mechanism on Black Wednesday) started from nothing, built his financial empire and now uses his position of power to help those most in need of it
Tripitaka, you mentioned that You had worked hard to get to where you are,see line below.
'' I have worked hard, been smart and taken every opportunity regardless of the sacrifice''
to me following the gist of your sentence you seemed to be implying that if you work hard then you get wealthy, this seems to be a buzz word with politcians these days as such its must be a lie , because thats all they do!
'' I have worked hard, been smart and taken every opportunity regardless of the sacrifice''
to me following the gist of your sentence you seemed to be implying that if you work hard then you get wealthy, this seems to be a buzz word with politcians these days as such its must be a lie , because thats all they do!
I know the area; we have an office in Budapest on Bartok Bella. I am sure I have read some stuff on this too.
Lets not get to confused on this though; it is certainly a regrettable situation and there are far too few details for me to comment with confidence. Questions such as "How did he become mayor in the first place", and "What circumstances resulted in those people living in that area to begin with" remain unanswered.
It is very difficult to understand the cause and effect relationship when they are separated with either time or geography. Certainly time is the factor in this case. The causal-loop-diagram for this would be enormous but that doesn't mean that the mayors activities were the only factor in the equation.
Not everyone could be a city banker or a C.E.O etc otherwise there'd be no workforce to do the jobs, everyone contrbutes as such all should be rewared for that contribution, with not such a very large clear divide between those that do and make the company etc work,and those that tell them what to do.
Hence me posting the edit. I wanted to make clear that my original post did not suggest that others did not work hard and I'm happy to apologise for any offence this may have caused.
I agree that not everyone can get to those positions. Heavens, can you imagine living in a world where everyone had the drive to achieve that? Where everyone strived to be the best they could be and not only to realise the dream but to create the dream too? One thing is for sure, we wouldn't be worrying about running out of fossil fuels with no alternative on the horizon.As for the rest, it's all a bit too close to communism for me; a system where there is no incentive to get ahead and achieve more only to have it taken off you and given to those that made different choices.
I find the argument between global worming skeptics and advocates funny. As far as I see it if climate change is happening and we do nothing then we are all doomed thanks to rising seas and natural disasters. If climate change isn't happening (or isn't our fault) and we do nothing then we are all doomed thanks to the end of fossil fuels and the collapse of western civilization. So what exactly are we arguing about?
As for the food thing. I have to say with our current society we cant feed ourselves no matter what. We would need the majority of our population to move from city's to the country and there for there wouldn't be the kind of infrastructure left to support what we think of as a modern way of life for more than a few people. But then with our hugely bloated population even that would be a struggle I would imagine. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though, I mean what ells can we do?
So by your logic if everyone on a low income worked really hard they could all become well off. They could leave there jobs as dustmen, factory workers, cooks, cleaners, labors and shop staff and get better payed jobs. I suppose they would just have to put up with the rubbish not getting collected and there being nothing in the shops to buy, which would be just as well because there would be nowone there to open the shops anyway.
Only a few people can move from poverty to wealth. If they all did it then all the existing wealthy people would have to change places with them or the hole system would collapse.
As for the food thing. I have to say with our current society we cant feed ourselves no matter what. We would need the majority of our population to move from city's to the country and there for there wouldn't be the kind of infrastructure left to support what we think of as a modern way of life for more than a few people. But then with our hugely bloated population even that would be a struggle I would imagine. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though, I mean what ells can we do?
So by your logic if everyone on a low income worked really hard they could all become well off. They could leave there jobs as dustmen, factory workers, cooks, cleaners, labors and shop staff and get better payed jobs. I suppose they would just have to put up with the rubbish not getting collected and there being nothing in the shops to buy, which would be just as well because there would be nowone there to open the shops anyway.
Only a few people can move from poverty to wealth. If they all did it then all the existing wealthy people would have to change places with them or the hole system would collapse.
So what does the wrong choice constitute? to me thats veering on the realms of luck, like i said in a earlier post most rich come from rich back grounds, or have a lucky break, to be punished to a life of poverty and struggle because you made a wrong choice seems a bit harsh, and what about my post above your last that not everone can do the top jobs or there'd be no work force as such the top guys wouldnt be top for very long,they are only there co's of the poor, and my god would i like to see it the other way round,(aint likely to happen, and cheers for the apology as that did come across bad to me and lit my fuse!)
You posted before me hence you sort of answered the second question all be it in a slighty sarky way, if only it was that easy eh?
You posted before me hence you sort of answered the second question all be it in a slighty sarky way, if only it was that easy eh?
by the way im not a communist, i have both right left and centre views on things so i consider myself well rounded.
Absolutely agree! What I am trying (badly) to explain is that anyone COULD do it but few people have the determination and goal focus to actually carry it through. There will always be "the poor" that end up doing these jobs but like it or not, they are there by choice due to a number of factors and they have very little to do with inherited privilege.
There are so many wrong choices; the default path is to get it wrong, hence the majority will remain poor. I think that some of the right choices are to become educated in life; study people and situations, definately become open-minded and remove emotion from your decision making. Always strive to be the best that you can be; it doesn't matter if you are better than anyone else but always challenge yourself to do better. Those are generic decisions not solely reserved for wealth.
I think the decisions needed to enable wealth are to ensure that you understand wealth creation (money makes money is definately one!) and to ensure that you are in a career that has many opportunities to be well paid. When in that career, do everything that you can to make yourself invaluable and always seek more responsibility; it won't always come with more pay but it will put you at the top of the pile for promotion - closer to the highly paid positions.
I'll even offer the first leads for anyone that wants to test this:
1) Read "The Fifth Discipline" by Peter M Senge
2) Research Russ Ackoff and study as much stuff of his as you can
3) Research systems thinking
4) Study Lean Six Sigma methodology so you understand it inside and out.
5) Approach local companies and offer to apply your knowledge for free so that you can build up 2 or 3 projects
6) Visit the online jobsites and look for LSS or Lean Six Sigma contract opportunities.
7) keep studying.
Step 6 will have you earning between £400 and £900 a day before tax. Once you become experienced, you would look to move into a consultancy, improve to Master Black Belt level and the current opportunities in London pay £1500+ per day.
No land required! ;D
who wants to be rich? i slog my guts out every day running up and down stairs with cabinets and tables for barely minimum wage (sometimes less) why? actually because its good crack, the people are cool and the work is challenging but also rewarding.
strip a rich man and a poor man down and they will both look the same.
money doesn't buy you hapiness, this i know since i have no money but barrels full of laughs.
this is a bushcraft forum so i'm not really sure where this thing about accumulated wealth came from but im sure y'all have your reasons. the poor will always be bitter towards the rich and the rich will always look down their noses at the poor, i consider myself neither since i have clothes on my back and food in my mouth but not the comfort to sit around all day and do nothing, and to be honest i certainly dont envy anybody who has that "luxury"
"the love of money is the root of all evil"
strip a rich man and a poor man down and they will both look the same.
money doesn't buy you hapiness, this i know since i have no money but barrels full of laughs.
this is a bushcraft forum so i'm not really sure where this thing about accumulated wealth came from but im sure y'all have your reasons. the poor will always be bitter towards the rich and the rich will always look down their noses at the poor, i consider myself neither since i have clothes on my back and food in my mouth but not the comfort to sit around all day and do nothing, and to be honest i certainly dont envy anybody who has that "luxury"
"the love of money is the root of all evil"
Similar threads
