Are we all enjoying the low fuel costs
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The fact of the matter is that whether you believe in climate change or not you must know that fossil fuels will run out some day. We all rely on fossil fuels for everything we do. What will happen when they run out....
I think that Robins point about costing 30 quid a gallon is valid for this reason...
I am old enough to remember the last recession in Ireland in the 80's when we knew nothing about the environmental impact of our lifestyles but we did not waste energy or fuel because we could not afford it. This was not because it was very expensive but because we had no money. Every journey in the car was planned to get the maximum fuel efficiency, lights were not left on in the house, there was no stand by on the TV, DVD, sky box etc.
I know I am going to sound like a cranky old man here but the fact of the matter is that the environmental impact message about our lifestyle has not hit home with the current generation as they have been reared in a time where money was the new religion. Money was everywhere and they could afford to be wasteful. We are now in a worldwide recession, where money is scarce and as money is all they understand then that is how you communicate with them. Make them think about their actions by increasing the cost. This will reduce the consumption which will in turn extend the life of our planet. It is in all of our interests to look after this planet in any way we can.
We as a group of people who live for the woods and nature should be at the forefront of environmental awareness. I believe it is our duty to help protect this planet for future generations to be able to enjoy.
I think that Robins point about costing 30 quid a gallon is valid for this reason...
I am old enough to remember the last recession in Ireland in the 80's when we knew nothing about the environmental impact of our lifestyles but we did not waste energy or fuel because we could not afford it. This was not because it was very expensive but because we had no money. Every journey in the car was planned to get the maximum fuel efficiency, lights were not left on in the house, there was no stand by on the TV, DVD, sky box etc.
I know I am going to sound like a cranky old man here but the fact of the matter is that the environmental impact message about our lifestyle has not hit home with the current generation as they have been reared in a time where money was the new religion. Money was everywhere and they could afford to be wasteful. We are now in a worldwide recession, where money is scarce and as money is all they understand then that is how you communicate with them. Make them think about their actions by increasing the cost. This will reduce the consumption which will in turn extend the life of our planet. It is in all of our interests to look after this planet in any way we can.
We as a group of people who live for the woods and nature should be at the forefront of environmental awareness. I believe it is our duty to help protect this planet for future generations to be able to enjoy.
Isn't that a bit like trying to get a violent offender to see the error of their ways by repeatedly beating them with a stick?
Increasing costs to reduce consumption could only ever have any merit if the extra revenue was 100% ringfenced to be invested in alternative fuels research. Even then the political power of the oil industry will continue to scupper progress.
The state of the planet in 100 or 200 years time is all well and good but we've got shareholders to feed!
I'm still not convinced about that Red.
There is 18.5 million acres of agricultural land in the UK. one acre can support about 4 people on a vegetarian diet using conventional horticultural techniques, up to 8 people if you believe the extreme permaculturists.
Then there is all of the uncounted land such as private gardens, public gardens, parks, redundant roads and buildings, hospital roofs etc etc, in our towns and cities. If people are prepared to reskill (and i'm sure they will when mcdonald's and asda shut down due to high fuel costs), dig up pointless lawns and fancy parks to grow food we might be able to cope.
I'm not sure about the rest of the UK but Edinburgh Council, NHS Lothian and a network of associated health/ environment/ horticulture NGO's are currently working together to map the potential growing area within the city.
The heartening thing for me in all of this gloom and doom is that some people are already doing something about it despite the rhetoric of climate change skeptics, pessimists and deniers.
whos rally going to be rich when the real crunch happens? people with fossil fuel guzzling lifestyles or humble gardeners.
your humble gardener and servant.
Rob
My parents (who lived in Edinburgh all their lives) were lucky enough to have a very large garden (a quarter of an acre) and that garden contributed a great deal to our food needs over the years.
Out of curiosity I looked up that house on Google street view yesterday to find that the entire garden has been paved over
I think any plans to get people growing their own will face an uphill struggle.
See my point again, the very rich tend to have huge gardens/land(thus get there minions to grow lots of fruit and veg) plus would probably have rabbit,deer,pigeon,etc on that land so yet again there alright jack, where as mister i share a council flat with 6 others wouldnt really have any, so growing for him/her aint really a option, you'd just be replacing oil and the power that goes with it, with land those that have it and those that dont,and most of this countries land is pretty much owned by the few.New technologies in fuel/power/vehicles/heating are going to be very expensive,and like with everything in this countries history we wait till the wolf's at the door before we do anything about it.(Yes im a pessimistic,cynical,moaning old sod,)
true most of the land is owned by the few but they won't have a clue what to do with it and if they try to grow stuff on it their cravats might get mucky - so it'll be up to folk like us
have you seen the channel4 landshare project? http://landshare.net/
its a good idea and will hopefully grow quickly (no pun intended).
and it is absolutely every aging man's prerogative to be grumpy, pessimistic and cynical but just try and do it at the allotment eh!
speaking of which, i'm off to the allotment. There's a hippy bushcrafter I know who needs a hand with his onion planting. Thankfully I'll be getting their by public transport this time so need to worry about the price of fuel today at least
Rob
Black gold Ahhhhhhhhh
The dream of the Good Life. I would love to move to a place where I can have a bit of land to be more self-sufficient but a place like that is further away from the school/doctor/ironmongers/butcher/etc, ad infinitum. Plus that place with an acre cost 9 times my salary and as I cannot afford the dream I will have to carry on as I am.
I own a caravan and do not fly (apart from work occasionally)! The cost to the environment by holiday jets is exponentially more than my Nissan diesel pumps out.
We only drive when we need to and that is usually to enjoy our country on our trips away not to drive 1/2 mile on the school run!
We don't go abroad as our holidays are taken in hereas we love UK :You_Rock_ and we put all our limited spending money into our economy not to somewhere else. If we all took our holidays here our economy would be better for it. Norfolk currently gets about £2Bn a year from tourism. Dare I say the word 'Protectionism? Discuss Not full-on Protectionism but considered and measured? Is that possible? Wrong Forum!!!!!
As for alternate sources of energy? What happened to the Irish inventor who created a machine the size of a washing machine that once started, created more energy than it needed? He disappeared apparently? Whooooooooo conspiracy theory :11doh: Wrong Forum Again!!!!! Sorry Mods
Check out this website for alternate free energy. I have been watching this site with interest since about 2003 and still nothing notable! Who knows?
http://www.steorn.com/
As for the £30 per gallon....Brilliant. We all die! Well the poorer of us will anyway! Not everyone has the 'Good Life' in some lovely pocket of England with lots of land! What the government could do is make the tax on fuel proportional to your financial worth? But there again the politicians are relatively rich and they won't do that will they
!!! As for the rich they don't give a s**t about the environment as long as they can fly to Barbados or wherever the scum go these days. With their vast wealth (90% of the country's wealth is owned by less than 5% of the people!) it could be £300 per gallon and it would make no difference! Taxation on foreign travel needs to reflect the absurdity of aircraft pollution and make the cost of flying more expensive not the cost of driving.
Anyway off to Tooting! Power to the People!
Probably a bit mixed up but I said most of what I wanted too
The dream of the Good Life. I would love to move to a place where I can have a bit of land to be more self-sufficient but a place like that is further away from the school/doctor/ironmongers/butcher/etc, ad infinitum. Plus that place with an acre cost 9 times my salary and as I cannot afford the dream I will have to carry on as I am.
I own a caravan and do not fly (apart from work occasionally)! The cost to the environment by holiday jets is exponentially more than my Nissan diesel pumps out.
We only drive when we need to and that is usually to enjoy our country on our trips away not to drive 1/2 mile on the school run!
We don't go abroad as our holidays are taken in hereas we love UK :You_Rock_ and we put all our limited spending money into our economy not to somewhere else. If we all took our holidays here our economy would be better for it. Norfolk currently gets about £2Bn a year from tourism. Dare I say the word 'Protectionism? Discuss
Not full-on Protectionism but considered and measured? Is that possible? Wrong Forum!!!!!As for alternate sources of energy? What happened to the Irish inventor who created a machine the size of a washing machine that once started, created more energy than it needed? He disappeared apparently? Whooooooooo conspiracy theory :11doh: Wrong Forum Again!!!!! Sorry Mods
Check out this website for alternate free energy. I have been watching this site with interest since about 2003 and still nothing notable! Who knows?
http://www.steorn.com/
As for the £30 per gallon....Brilliant. We all die! Well the poorer of us will anyway! Not everyone has the 'Good Life' in some lovely pocket of England with lots of land! What the government could do is make the tax on fuel proportional to your financial worth? But there again the politicians are relatively rich and they won't do that will they
!!! As for the rich they don't give a s**t about the environment as long as they can fly to Barbados or wherever the scum go these days. With their vast wealth (90% of the country's wealth is owned by less than 5% of the people!) it could be £300 per gallon and it would make no difference! Taxation on foreign travel needs to reflect the absurdity of aircraft pollution and make the cost of flying more expensive not the cost of driving.Anyway off to Tooting! Power to the People!
Probably a bit mixed up but I said most of what I wanted too
Not without external organic input it can't. And where do all these people live? In cities miles from the land. How will they heat these homes? Will you tell me next they can coppice enough timber on their one acre? How do the doctors, teachers, nurses etc. eat?
Its a fantasy. This country has never supported anywhere near that population density with its own food - and that even with the advantage of fossil fuel and chemical fertiliser. Heat? Light? Water pumps? People to run these things
It cannot work. So the choices are a smaller population or mass starvation.
Feel free however to be a "denier"
Red
My diet includes meat because I am a human being ie. omnivore.
You stick with your fruit and veg and I'll have the furry creatures.
GS
My diet includes meat because I am a human being ie. omnivore.
You stick with your fruit and veg and I'll have the furry creatures.
GS
i'm an omnivore too. but don't worry, i'm sure there will be plenty rats and pigeons for us.
We're all doomed! .........................
Nah.
Just need to tweak your zombie survival plan (don't pretend you don't have one!) to account for faster / smarter adverseries and your home free.
I´m going to keep driving all over the country in my hydrogencell powered 4X4.
I just realize that it won´t be on the market as long as petrol is cheap enough for me to do it anyway.
I just realize that it won´t be on the market as long as petrol is cheap enough for me to do it anyway.
i'm an omnivore too. but don't worry, i'm sure there will be plenty rats and pigeons for us.
Aaah sauteed rat with a nettle and elderberry wine jus. mmmmmmmm
I am 100% with BR here.
A couple of things need to be said after reading the thread though:
1) Save the Planet is a fallacy. The planet has, and will, survive. In order to do so, the climate will change in a way that does not support (very much) human life, the balance will restore and the earth will survive. I do think that if we stopped talking about saving the planet and started talking about saving the human race, people would pay more attention.
2) Why are "the poor" so bitter and resentful of "the rich"? I was born into a very poor family and made a decision at an early age to change that for myself and my descendents. I have done that; I don't consider myself to be rich but I'm certainly not poor in financial terms. I have worked hard, been smart and taken every opportunity regardless of the sacrifice. I have suffered setbacks and recovered from them; had good fortune and invested through sharing with others. People are financially rich or poor because of the decisions they have taken in their life. An emotive subject for sure but you can't have it all.
A couple of things need to be said after reading the thread though:
1) Save the Planet is a fallacy. The planet has, and will, survive. In order to do so, the climate will change in a way that does not support (very much) human life, the balance will restore and the earth will survive. I do think that if we stopped talking about saving the planet and started talking about saving the human race, people would pay more attention.
2) Why are "the poor" so bitter and resentful of "the rich"? I was born into a very poor family and made a decision at an early age to change that for myself and my descendents. I have done that; I don't consider myself to be rich but I'm certainly not poor in financial terms. I have worked hard, been smart and taken every opportunity regardless of the sacrifice. I have suffered setbacks and recovered from them; had good fortune and invested through sharing with others. People are financially rich or poor because of the decisions they have taken in their life. An emotive subject for sure but you can't have it all.
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