Update- Carrying of knives

[Peterlee_Paddler]

Hobbit, you'll be entitled to legal aid.

 

[wistuart]

Sorry to here about Hobbit's situation. It's a difficult predicament and almost certainly the police are influenced in their actions by your previous conviction(s). That said, you've done your time and according to THEIR system you've been punished for whatever you did - that should be the end of it. Whilst they obviously have a duty to protect the public that does not extend to persecuting someone for life for past offences.

I'm no expert as to how to deal with this but I think a polite letter to the chief constable might be the best way. If you can get someone to work on it with you and get it so that it clearly lays out the facts that you do not believe you were in breach of the law and that you have been unduly treated because you did your best to co-operate with his officers despite being confident of your innocence. Ask for an explanation as to why your tools have been destroyed pointing out as others have mentioned that they are either evidence or your rightful property, depending on whether his force intends to push for prosecution. If you don't get a satisfactory reply from him copy the letter to your MP and the Home Secretary.

As to the person that snitched you, I would urge you not to wind her up tempting as it may be. You're likely just to get stitched up by the cops who's opinion of you will be forever tarnished due to your previous. If you want to put her to the test over access rights it might be better trying to organise a mini-meet of bushcrafters with clean records so that the police can't intimidate them as easily.

Good luck whatever happens.

 

[Hobbit on a String]

If you want to put her to the test over access rights it might be better trying to organise a mini-meet of bushcrafters with clean records so that the police can't intimidate them as easily.

Good luck whatever happens.

Well i have been thinking along those lines, of having a bunch of like minded folks, having a mini meet ora full on meet, on "her Private" part of the Forest.


Going to Inverness tomoz so i can see someone who is not from around here, as i am sure there is some interbreeding going on.

Thanks once again for all the support

And how does one organise a Meet??????

The Hobbit
:AR15firin

 

[BigShot]

Just to chip in one more time...
...I'd still go down the complaints route, maybe even try to push for compensation of some sort so you can replace the kit (regardless of the kind offer of an Axe you've already been given)...
...but the bit about relinquishing ownership of the items does kinda change things.

They didn't destroy your property, they destroyed something you had relinquished ownership of.

I find the whole thing annoying.

 

[Nagual]

Got a reply from home office regarding carrying of knives, and yes it's as uninformative as you'd expect. However, I take from that, that if you can prove you have reason to carry a knife eg "I'm going to gut fish as I catch them, as not to do so runs the risk of the meat becoming contaminated" or " I'm going to carve wood " etc obviously not having a fish rod or camping gear at the time when making these claims isn't going to work.

Public Order Unit
2 Marsham Street, London SW1P 4DF
Switchboard 020 7035 4848 Fax: 020 7035 4745 Textphone: 020 7035 4742
E-mail: public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk Website: www.homeoffice.gov.uk




Reference: xxxxxx 03 March 2009

Dear Mr Nagual,

Thank you for your email of 17 February regarding carrying a knife. Your email has been passed to me for a reply.

Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 currently prohibits the possession of an article with blade or point in public without good reason or lawful authority, with the exception of a folding pocket-knife with a blade not exceeding three inches. It would be for an individual to demonstrate that he had good reason to possess a knife, for example for work, fishing or other sporting purposes, in a public place.

It is also an offence under Section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 for any person to have with them an offensive weapon in a public place, including private premises to which the public have access. An offensive weapon is any weapon designed or adapted to cause injury, or intended by the individual to cause injury. This would include batons.



Regards,



Mohammed Rahman.
Offensive Weapons Section.

 

[BigShot]

A worryingly misleading reply.
It's right, of course, on the letter of the law, but it omits to mention that the folding knife must be NON LOCKING in order to count as a folding pocket knife and have exemption from s139 of the CJA.

Any reasonable person would read that and think a folding lock-knife not exceeding 3 inches would be legal to carry "just because" and they'd be wrong. Legally that's a fixed blade knife - even though it folds! Flippin moronic case law!

The home office really should make that clear when they recieve an enquiry about the legality of knife-carrying.

 

[durulz]

A worryingly misleading reply.
It's right, of course, on the letter of the law, but it omits to mention that the folding knife must be NON LOCKING in order to count as a folding pocket knife and have exemption from s139 of the CJA.

Any reasonable person would read that and think a folding lock-knife not exceeding 3 inches would be legal to carry "just because" and they'd be wrong. Legally that's a fixed blade knife - even though it folds! Flippin moronic case law!

The home office really should make that clear when they recieve an enquiry about the legality of knife-carrying.

You are absolutely right on that count. Although I wonder if quoting this letter as defence would help - after all, it's come from the Police themselves. That'd be interesting.

But overall, I thought the letter was quite clear, succinct and to the point. And in that respect I think it's clarified the official stance and made it all much clearer to members. The letter makes it clear that you may carry any item if you can prove you have good reason - and I think Nagual made a good point that if you had other camping paraphernalia with you it would support your case. It's clearer in my mind. This all just compounds the tragedy of Hobbit's case (though by his own admission there are extenuating circumstances - whether right or wrong) - seems like he had good reason to me. Ho hum.
It's just up to the individual Poilceman on the beat to know the subtleties. To be fair, there are so many laws that you can't expect them to be experts on all laws. Which doesn't help, of course, because though you may be in the right and have legal advice to say 'don't worry - you'll get off with it', you still have to undergo the stress and anxiety of a court appearance.
I've always thought common sense is the best approach. Common sense on the part of the Police (which we can do pitifully little about) and common sense on our parts (interpret that how you will) will win the day. Ultimately, the Police are after young chavs lurking about town - which is why I suspect some inner-city members have had more than their fair share of hassle from time to time. Not a couple of middle-aged chaps up in the woods. And that's why I haven't spent too much time worry about all of this. Aware, certainly, but not anguishing over it. And that letter confirms how I have felt all along.
It's just a shame that errors will happen. 'Twas ever thus.

 

[BigShot]

It'd be interesting to see. It might even go some way to overturning the current dopey case law.
My suspicion is, though, that the court would still be bound to find the knife counted as a fixed blade and so without good reason you've comitted a crime.

I suppose a really good legal rep might be able to argue that the letter was good reason, I dunno how that would be viewed though.

Considering the "ignorance is no defence" thing though, a good prosecution (maybe "skilled" would be better, there's nothing good about prosecuting someone who's done nothing wrong) could probably argue that you should have found out what the legal definition of a folding pocket knife was and that you were ignorant due to not doing so was your own fault and no defence.

It's odd that there's really no way for a lay person to know whether something they do is legal or not until they've been dragged before a court and tried.

Oh to live in a free country!

 

[myotis]

It's odd that there's really no way for a lay person to know whether something they do is legal or not until they've been dragged before a court and tried.

Totally irrelevant to this discussion, but relevant to your comment.

I forget the detail, but Welsh Water (when it existed), funded the Open Spaces Society to take Welsh Water to court over erecting fences in open areas, because it was a legal grey area that both sides wanted resolved by case law, hence the unlikely and temporary alliance.

Graham

 

[BigShot]

What an odd scenario.
I think that might be the first time I've heard of someone willingly paying for someone else to drag them into court.

Any idea which way it went?

 

[myotis]

What an odd scenario.
I think that might be the first time I've heard of someone willingly paying for someone else to drag them into court.

Any idea which way it went?

I can't remember, and I should because it was relevant to the issue being discussed when the chap from Welsh Water explained it to me how they now knew the legal position over erecting temporary fences in an upland AONB.

It is apparantly the only way you can have a grey area of the law resolved.

Graham

 

[wistuart]

I really don't like the fact that the receipt apparently stated that he was "relinquishing ownership". Perhaps Hobbit could clarify the exact wording and also whether the receipt was hand written or a standard form. In such circumstances it would seem perfectly acceptable for the individual to relinquish possession but to give up ownership altogether seems inherrently wrong.

It's a pity Hobbit can't afford a lawyer because I believe he could make a very good case for claiming that he had no practical alternative under the circumstances and was effectively being blackmailed. Had he said no it doesn't take much imagination to guess how it might have turned out given that there were presumably no witnesses and it would ultimately come down to his word against that of two officers. Not only would he have lost his tools anyway but he'd probably have ended up facing a number of other charges possibly resisting arrest, assaulting a police officer and the ubiquitous breach of peace.

Forr all that you can't afford legal assistance Hobbit, many law firms offer a free initial consultation. It might be worth seeing if you can speak to one on that basis and get their opinion on where you stand legally.

 

[BigShot]

Good post there wistuart.
Agree completely.


Graham.
I had a quick Google search for "welsh water" "open spaces society" court but nothing leapt out at me.

 

[myotis]

I had a quick Google search for "welsh water" "open spaces society" court but nothing leapt out at me.

So did I, but I also tried Case law, and searched the OSS web site and couldn't find anythng either. My conversation is at least 8 years old and I don't know when this happened. If I come across anything I will let you know.

Graham

 

[Hobbit on a String]

The Hobbit here,

Form ADM 12/11 (Apl '08

GRAMPIAN POLICE

DISCLAIMER CERTIFICATE

I MORDECHAI JACOB COHEN 02/04/1973 BORN FALKIRK CENTRAL SCOTLAND
OF RESIDENCE (THATS THE ADDRESS PART)

HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I RELINQUISH OWNERSHIP OF THE UNDERMENTIONED ARTICLE(S) WHICH IS/ARE NOW IN THE CUSTODY OF THE POLICE,

1. BLACK HANDLED HUNTING KNIVE
2. SMALL AXE NAMED GRANFORSBUCK

DATED 25/02/09

There you go boys, that is the form as it is stated in fromt of me, if i knew how to scan stuff onto the website i would do it for you, but i am a bit of a thicko when it comes to comupters.

Spoke with a lawyer in Inverness today, and he says i am stuffed, that because i was inside for what i did, no court in the land is going to take my word over that of a Police officer, Was in for attempted Murder,

But MikeDB needs a praise from all the brothers out there, for getting me a wildlife axe so i can get out quicker, you can even ask vickie, as we are starting to rub each other up the wrong way.

Take care, and if anyone wants more info, PM or email me.

Hobbit

 

[Barney]

Vickie,

there is some great bushcroft gear hear, get yourself round there ASAP. He has an axe.

http://www.stabproofvest.co.uk/

 

[sirex]

you know, if i had been pulled up for apparently "poaching" id be very unlikely to sign anything that named my knife as a "hunting knife".

I think the lesson for future is goto the station, and get the free legal advice. - thats what i plan to do, regardless of what they pull me up for.

 

[inthewids]

Bad news Hobbit on a string, did you used to live in Findhorn?

 

[Hobbit on a String]

Bad news Hobbit on a string, did you used to live in Findhorn?

Wrong Brother, my little Brother stayed down that way for a while or so, no point asking him though, as no-one knows where he has disappeared to, he up and left one day and we havnt heard from him since,

He is listed as a Missing Person, his bank accounts havnt been touched, nothing.

He will turn up when he wants to, when his head is clear, he has done it before, and no doubt will keep on doing it as much as he likes,

We have a slight variation in our names, mine is Mordechai ben Yaccov Yitzack Hacohen

Where as little Brother is just plain old Mordechai Ben Yaccov Cohen,

Me being named after my father and grandfather, but thats life, i just prefer to be called jake, have done for years, where as he likes his first name to be used, but we all have a choice in the matter.

But this is getting away from the thread,

The knife was a black handle Hunting Knive, i didnt think it would matter what was written as i knew they were not going to give it back, no matter what i said, and if i started an argfument in the Police Station the next Place for me would have been a cell, No Thanks,

Getting shafted once a day is enough

Just going to buy the Black Handle "Mora" Carbon Steel blade, at £8.95 it is a steal.

Having kept away from the law, i wasnt sure if i was in the right or the wrong, and it was thier word against mine, and no court is going to go and agree with me,

Doesnt mean i am not P***ed off abot the whole thing



The Hobbit
:AR15firin

 

[Hobbit on a String]

Barney, why do i want a stabvest for coppers,
I know i am a thicko, but i aint going to stab myself now am i