So much for: "Leave only Footprints, Take only Photographs"
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890384,00.html
Eco Tourism HAH!
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890384,00.html
Eco Tourism HAH!
Worlds Highest Rubbish Dump!
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Sad fact of life
There was a big stink (literaly) about the same thing on Mt Blanc.
The article stated it had been a warm year, a bit more snow had melted than usual. There was human waste everywhere. Photo's from a helicopter had showed that so many people had gone "number 1" that a glacier had now turned a light shade of yellow The mayor was thinking of imposing licenses and making sure guides went with people etc but all the mountaineers and guides that was against the "free spirit of mountaineering". You would think these "free spirits" would have a bit more respect although i appreciate the issues of sanitation at 10,000 plus.
Portaloo on the hill side?
Bottles and bags full of waste to take with you?
Same problem on Everest, when you are high enough to use oxygen you don't want to carry an once more than you have to...bottle empty, throw bottle away. Your body is dying and people are suffering badly so unless you've been there i suppose you can't judge
These places are more accessable than ever, what do we do. I don't know
There was a big stink (literaly) about the same thing on Mt Blanc.
The article stated it had been a warm year, a bit more snow had melted than usual. There was human waste everywhere. Photo's from a helicopter had showed that so many people had gone "number 1" that a glacier had now turned a light shade of yellow
The mayor was thinking of imposing licenses and making sure guides went with people etc but all the mountaineers and guides that was against the "free spirit of mountaineering". You would think these "free spirits" would have a bit more respect although i appreciate the issues of sanitation at 10,000 plus. Portaloo on the hill side?
Bottles and bags full of waste to take with you?
Same problem on Everest, when you are high enough to use oxygen you don't want to carry an once more than you have to...bottle empty, throw bottle away. Your body is dying and people are suffering badly so unless you've been there i suppose you can't judge
These places are more accessable than ever, what do we do. I don't know
Heh just rediculous isn't it. Better to get to know the nice local places instead of traveling to I don't know where by the thousands.. because the tourist books say it's cool or because you just need to go to the best of the best (highest of the highest ) to kick off from your ****** up job.
) to kick off from your ****** up job. 
There was something on Radio 2 a while ago about there being a couple of upright pianos being left on Ben Nevis.
Ian.
Ian.
May be it would be better to get to know and look after our own place than to go and mess everyone else's in the name of the "local economy". Whereever you go, the local economy is quoted as the reason why tourism must be encouraged,, so we leaves our own local economy and go and mess yours and vice versa!
I do just that,
There are loads of places in this country i havn't been and want to. I refuse point blank to go abroad.
Check in, late flights, endless waiting..i do love a good foreign holiday lol
Seroiously the highest mountain i have climbed is Ben Nevis, this is because we were in Scotland on holiday at the time. I would love to do Snowdon, that will be on a Welsh holiday one year. I live in North Yorkshire and there are loads of places i want to go and havn't. I only went to Malham cove for the first time about a month ago and i only live about an hour away from it.
Stay at home, learn and love the wonders in this country before we go and pollute someone elses.
There are loads of places in this country i havn't been and want to. I refuse point blank to go abroad.
Check in, late flights, endless waiting..i do love a good foreign holiday lol
Seroiously the highest mountain i have climbed is Ben Nevis, this is because we were in Scotland on holiday at the time. I would love to do Snowdon, that will be on a Welsh holiday one year. I live in North Yorkshire and there are loads of places i want to go and havn't. I only went to Malham cove for the first time about a month ago and i only live about an hour away from it.
Stay at home, learn and love the wonders in this country before we go and pollute someone elses.
I've been a mountaineer all my life and never left anything anywhere not in the Alps, Britain, Siberia or N America and I simply don't see why anyone else has to do it either. Everest makes me ashamed to call myself a mountaineer . I don't know if you've seen pictures of the valley leading up to base camp but it used to be a verdant green...now it's a desert due to deforestation to light fires in base camp! I don't think you can blame the poor nations that give onto the area from making something out of those going to the area. It is these visitors, who after all overwhelmingly profess to a love of the mountains, who should have cleaned up and who should have to pay for it now. 
Anyone checking into a hotel or campsite in the alps should have to pay a "Clean Alps Tax" of an euro or something like this.
Even better, can everyone stop throwing their waste into the environment when they think no one is looking!
. I don't know if you've seen pictures of the valley leading up to base camp but it used to be a verdant green...now it's a desert due to deforestation to light fires in base camp! I don't think you can blame the poor nations that give onto the area from making something out of those going to the area. It is these visitors, who after all overwhelmingly profess to a love of the mountains, who should have cleaned up and who should have to pay for it now. Anyone checking into a hotel or campsite in the alps should have to pay a "Clean Alps Tax" of an euro or something like this.
Even better, can everyone stop throwing their waste into the environment when they think no one is looking!
I heard about this from a guy who was on a bushcraft course with me earlier this year, he said he had quit climbing because of this and I couldn't believe that what he was telling me was true at first, all about the crap and rubbish and dead bodies left lying around.
And we worry about a few coke cans in the forest.
I suppose it must be very hard to recover stuff thats left up there, but man....
Perhaps all teams should have to check in and register any potential litter (provide an inventory to some sort of authority) and then if they don't bring everything back down (used or not) then they get a large fine. Maybe you would have to leavea sum of money as a guarantee....?
And we worry about a few coke cans in the forest.
I suppose it must be very hard to recover stuff thats left up there, but man....
Perhaps all teams should have to check in and register any potential litter (provide an inventory to some sort of authority) and then if they don't bring everything back down (used or not) then they get a large fine. Maybe you would have to leavea sum of money as a guarantee....?
Bit old now, but a good article:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/22/everest.cleanup/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/22/everest.cleanup/index.html
dommyracer said:
In order to climb Everest you have to and have had to for quite some time, pay for a permit to do so and give over all the names of people in the expedition etc.
I reckon they should just send a bill to all those on the list and/or publish it.
I have always worked on the basis, that if you can be bothered to carry it IN, you can also be bothered to carry it OUT!
Anything else is just
consumerist instant gratification.
Anything else is just
consumerist instant gratification.
From what I see of Everest expeditions it seems that most of the people who get to the summit are the well off, who can pay for the guides and Sherpas required to get there, not outdoors enthusiasts. I seem to recall a figure of around £50,000 to obtain a permit to make a summit attempt. Yep, not suprised.
A clean up operation would be quite a challenge.
A clean up operation would be quite a challenge.
Interesting article.
The Tourism verses wilderness debate is an interesting one but the issue of litter and rubbish in the wider Khumbu are less clear than the specific issue of discarded equipment on Everest itself.
I spent a month on a solo trekking expedition in the Khumbu at the end of the Winter/during February 2006 and was introduced to the region by a friend who has been going for over 7 years now.
Montivagus says that the valley leading up to basecamp is a desert due to deforestation to light fires in base camp - this isnt strictly true and is misleading.
The Valley with Dhugla at its head, leading to Lobouche and is actually the Kumbu Glacier, and these village are situated on the terminal & lateral moraines and the side of the valley above the moraines.
These villages are situated at almost between 16,000 and 18,000 feet above sea level and therefore are way above the tree line . The best part of 5 kilometres high the average cruising height of passenger aircraft on a European flight - no trees grow at that altitude.
Also in Nepal while wood was used extensively in the past and while villagers retain the right to cut wood the volume cut is sustainable and currently very few families actually burn the wood, preferring to use dried Yak/Nak dung in steel burners.
The people I saw gathering wood were collecting fallen and broken branches rather than cutting it fresh.
Montivagus is right about requiring a permit to climb Everest - in fact I believe that you need a permit to climb any peak higher then Island Peak in the Khumbu 6000 meters and above. The higher the peak the higher the cost .
Everest basecamp (above) isnt that cluttered with rubbish and there are regular expeditions to clear up the head of the valley. Though I admit there were pockets of camp detritus floating around, some more impressive than others bits of ladders used to scale the Khumbu Ice fall, broken boxes and plastic bits , tent pegs and the occasion bit of broken equipment
The most pressing problem in the region though, is the rubbish created by the villages and villagers themselves, the rubbish from teahouses and large trekking parties and organised groups.
I was appalled at the state of Louboche with litter and human sewage flowing through the centre of town, but even lower down the Khumbu, in Namche, Tengboche and Phortse where they seem simply to empty all their rubbish and litter over a wall at the edge of the village and let cascade down a hillside.
These sites are awful to behold especially when you see Musk Deer and Danphe rooting around piles of rubbish.
The Nepali/regional Government is now trying to organise village rubbish pits which are used to bury everything that cannot be recycled or burnt as fuel. Efforts are also being made to educate local on how to better recycle and dispose of waste.
But Nepal is one of the poorest countries in the world and the Khumbu is a valuable resource , not choosing not to visit it or restricting the number of mountaineers and trekkers will not solve all the regions problems. Like many wilderness regions around the world, they need to be managed properly and respected by visitors.
I went to the region on my own and organised my own route and accommodation - I ate only what was available in the tea houses I didnt eat western food or buy Western brand cereals, chocolates, crisps or snacks, I ate Dhal Bhat or Mo-mo - local food naturally prepared where possible. Soups and teas and hot lemon are all carried up into the Khumbu by porters from Lukla.
I brought back all the spent film canisters, biscuit wrappers and used batteries thus minimising the environmental costs to the region. I also hired a local Guide and Porter, which meant that the money I was paying went direct to those living in the region rather than lining the pockets of a western travel company.
Go to Nepal, itll blow your mind.
PS And by as many superb quality Khukris as you can carry from about £6 in Kathmandu buy em from the people who make em rather than pay £40 for an online dealer who pockets the difference !
The Tourism verses wilderness debate is an interesting one but the issue of litter and rubbish in the wider Khumbu are less clear than the specific issue of discarded equipment on Everest itself.
I spent a month on a solo trekking expedition in the Khumbu at the end of the Winter/during February 2006 and was introduced to the region by a friend who has been going for over 7 years now.
Montivagus says that the valley leading up to basecamp is a desert due to deforestation to light fires in base camp - this isnt strictly true and is misleading.
The Valley with Dhugla at its head, leading to Lobouche and is actually the Kumbu Glacier, and these village are situated on the terminal & lateral moraines and the side of the valley above the moraines.
These villages are situated at almost between 16,000 and 18,000 feet above sea level and therefore are way above the tree line . The best part of 5 kilometres high the average cruising height of passenger aircraft on a European flight - no trees grow at that altitude.
Also in Nepal while wood was used extensively in the past and while villagers retain the right to cut wood the volume cut is sustainable and currently very few families actually burn the wood, preferring to use dried Yak/Nak dung in steel burners.
The people I saw gathering wood were collecting fallen and broken branches rather than cutting it fresh.
Montivagus is right about requiring a permit to climb Everest - in fact I believe that you need a permit to climb any peak higher then Island Peak in the Khumbu 6000 meters and above. The higher the peak the higher the cost .
Everest basecamp (above) isnt that cluttered with rubbish and there are regular expeditions to clear up the head of the valley. Though I admit there were pockets of camp detritus floating around, some more impressive than others bits of ladders used to scale the Khumbu Ice fall, broken boxes and plastic bits , tent pegs and the occasion bit of broken equipment
The most pressing problem in the region though, is the rubbish created by the villages and villagers themselves, the rubbish from teahouses and large trekking parties and organised groups.
I was appalled at the state of Louboche with litter and human sewage flowing through the centre of town, but even lower down the Khumbu, in Namche, Tengboche and Phortse where they seem simply to empty all their rubbish and litter over a wall at the edge of the village and let cascade down a hillside.
These sites are awful to behold especially when you see Musk Deer and Danphe rooting around piles of rubbish.
The Nepali/regional Government is now trying to organise village rubbish pits which are used to bury everything that cannot be recycled or burnt as fuel. Efforts are also being made to educate local on how to better recycle and dispose of waste.
But Nepal is one of the poorest countries in the world and the Khumbu is a valuable resource , not choosing not to visit it or restricting the number of mountaineers and trekkers will not solve all the regions problems. Like many wilderness regions around the world, they need to be managed properly and respected by visitors.
I went to the region on my own and organised my own route and accommodation - I ate only what was available in the tea houses I didnt eat western food or buy Western brand cereals, chocolates, crisps or snacks, I ate Dhal Bhat or Mo-mo - local food naturally prepared where possible. Soups and teas and hot lemon are all carried up into the Khumbu by porters from Lukla.
I brought back all the spent film canisters, biscuit wrappers and used batteries thus minimising the environmental costs to the region. I also hired a local Guide and Porter, which meant that the money I was paying went direct to those living in the region rather than lining the pockets of a western travel company.
Go to Nepal, itll blow your mind.
PS And by as many superb quality Khukris as you can carry from about £6 in Kathmandu buy em from the people who make em rather than pay £40 for an online dealer who pockets the difference !
P Wren said:
Errr....obviously metaphorical
still not far from the truth!http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/08/0829_030829_travelereverest.html
I was trusting no one was dumb enough to think trees grow on everest or on the glaciers at its base! The valley I refer to is the Khumbu valley.
If you go there and you recognise that you're part of the problem...well the problem is half solved. If you go there and think you're not part of the problem you're the worst of the problem!
Montivagus said:Errr....obviously metaphorical
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/08/0829_030829_travelereverest.html
I was trusting no one was dumb enough to think trees grow on everest or on the glaciers at its base! The valley I refer to is the Khumbu valley.
If you go there and you recognise that you're part of the problem...well the problem is half solved. If you go there and think you're not part of the problem you're the worst of the problem!
Ok The Khumbu, or Solu-Khumbu refers to the whole of the Everest region not just the one valley, like the Annapurna region or Upper Mustang.
And unfortunately the whole region and Nepali economy is dependant on tourism. So it's not as straight forward as saying tourism equals a problem. Without Tourism, and expeditions many of the villages wouldn't exist, the Sherpas wouldn't stay in the region.
The recent political situation which led to a massive drop in visitor numbers to the region did a lot to damage the incomes of these villages. I was in the region at the time and met senior officials fromthe Nepali Tourist Board who wanted people to come to the region. Tourism brings many benifits in the form of visiting doctors to the region who provide subsidsed health care and schooling for local children.
But in truth the most dramatic changes in the region are more likely to be brought about by environmental changes brought about by global warming.
There was a lot of evidence to suggest that the galciers were shortening and that the amount of melted water in lakes and underneath the glaciers is increasing.
These trends pose a for more serious risk to the region long term than trekkers dropping plastic bottles.
A great deal can be done to re-educate trekking companies to change their bad practices which will resolve the largely cosmetic problems of the region. This combined with a more resonsible and sustainable approach to managing waste within the villages will solve the litter trouble.
As for the mountaineering junk that is more of an issue as climbing 8000 meter peaks is a uniquely hazardous pastime that jus doesn't permit groups the luxury of picking up a sackfull of litter on your way down,the way Bushcrafters in the UK might. But this situation only occurs at high altitude on the highest peaks.
It's misleading for media articles to suggest that there refuse and junked mountaineering kit all over the region. It's not that bad.
I feel like Im putting my neck out commenting, Ive never been there and therefore dont appreciate all the different aspects of the situation. Im sure that theres many circumstances that dictate the villagers dumping rubbish etc. The cost of infrastructure and services to make sure that doesnt happen are huge and its something that they as a nation will struggle with for a long time yet, I hope that they do get to grips with it.
I think that the issue of waste thats left by people that bring it in is a different matter, they should be responsible for making sure that they dont leave rubbish there. This is down to the individual and their integrity, theyre the ones that decide whats important, if its themselves then thats a decision they make. Of course things are going to get left up there, when its life or death Nature takes second place, or we bend it to our survival, but theres a lot people could do rather than do as everyone else does. I would love to climb something like Everest, Id not feel comfortable just dumping all my stuff as I go, we all know that the going is hard, there are few surprises left there now that shouldnt be prepared for and be the responsibility of those undertaking the endeavour.
Umm, thats a bit of a ramble. I do think theyre separate issues, although linked.
I think that the issue of waste thats left by people that bring it in is a different matter, they should be responsible for making sure that they dont leave rubbish there. This is down to the individual and their integrity, theyre the ones that decide whats important, if its themselves then thats a decision they make. Of course things are going to get left up there, when its life or death Nature takes second place, or we bend it to our survival, but theres a lot people could do rather than do as everyone else does. I would love to climb something like Everest, Id not feel comfortable just dumping all my stuff as I go, we all know that the going is hard, there are few surprises left there now that shouldnt be prepared for and be the responsibility of those undertaking the endeavour.
Umm, thats a bit of a ramble. I do think theyre separate issues, although linked.
A family friend of ours works for the British embassy in Kathmandu. As a climber following in her grandfathers footsteps, She is very aware of these issues and behind the scenes is trying to educate those who are in the mainstream expeditions.
Next time I see her I will ask how this is going and let you know.
Swyn.
Next time I see her I will ask how this is going and let you know.
Swyn.
Well
this thread reminded me to have a look how things are getting on and Ive had a good look for info and theres good news and bad news.
The good news is Im not so ashamed to call myself a mountaineer anymore! It seems that various schemes have been launched to address the litter problem caused by mountain climbers; primarily the introduction in 98 of a $4000 deposit returnable only if you bring out your waste (human waste included). Open to abuse I thought but apparently working well. The introduction of up to $11 per oxygen bottle brought down plus litter/waste bonuses has meant Sherpas and parties in general often bring down more than they take up. Various expeditions have been undertaken solely to litter/human waste-pick the mountain from camp IV down to base camp, taking out tonnes of rubbish each time including sixteen metric tonnes of plastic waste at least 900 (and counting) oxygen bottles etc. etc. (Though weirdly all this stuff is then shipped to the US for recycling which must be the most environmentally unsound way of recycling I have heard of - still work to do then)
The point is the relatively low number of climbing expeditions visiting the area and the amount of money they bring with them allows the problem to be handled. Its a bit sad the problem had to evolve at all but with the publicity received, (including hands up from Hillary, Bonnington et al) and revenue generated, clean up on Everest is easily achievable despite the physical difficulties involved.
The bad news is from base camp down things go from bad to worse. Its the explosion of trekkers and eco-tourists (Ha!) trying to have an experience on the cheap that are really driving the environmental damage to the region. They dont spend nearly as much money per capita and do so in a much more unorganised/uncontrolled way so it is very difficult, especially in the face of blatant opposition from tour operators and tourists, to raise a specific clean up tax and the amount of rubbish they bring with them/ generate and the amount of wood cut down to heat their bath-water and pot-veggie-curries is many times more than that ever thrown away/needed by climbing expeditions to the area.
The locals are poor and uneducated and so obviously arent in favour of reducing numbers and will keep on cutting if left to themselves. Who can blame them; after all they too aspire to be deliberately beatnik but still carry thousands of dollars worth of ipods, digital cameras and Gore-Tex so, the control is going to have to come from the wealthier and more educated nations, from the tourists who go there. Eco tourists are going to have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk and that should mean paying the real price of their visit! If they dont the environment and the locals will in the long run.
The good news is Im not so ashamed to call myself a mountaineer anymore! It seems that various schemes have been launched to address the litter problem caused by mountain climbers; primarily the introduction in 98 of a $4000 deposit returnable only if you bring out your waste (human waste included). Open to abuse I thought but apparently working well. The introduction of up to $11 per oxygen bottle brought down plus litter/waste bonuses has meant Sherpas and parties in general often bring down more than they take up. Various expeditions have been undertaken solely to litter/human waste-pick the mountain from camp IV down to base camp, taking out tonnes of rubbish each time including sixteen metric tonnes of plastic waste at least 900 (and counting) oxygen bottles etc. etc. (Though weirdly all this stuff is then shipped to the US for recycling which must be the most environmentally unsound way of recycling I have heard of - still work to do then)
The point is the relatively low number of climbing expeditions visiting the area and the amount of money they bring with them allows the problem to be handled. Its a bit sad the problem had to evolve at all but with the publicity received, (including hands up from Hillary, Bonnington et al) and revenue generated, clean up on Everest is easily achievable despite the physical difficulties involved.
The bad news is from base camp down things go from bad to worse. Its the explosion of trekkers and eco-tourists (Ha!) trying to have an experience on the cheap that are really driving the environmental damage to the region. They dont spend nearly as much money per capita and do so in a much more unorganised/uncontrolled way so it is very difficult, especially in the face of blatant opposition from tour operators and tourists, to raise a specific clean up tax and the amount of rubbish they bring with them/ generate and the amount of wood cut down to heat their bath-water and pot-veggie-curries is many times more than that ever thrown away/needed by climbing expeditions to the area.
The locals are poor and uneducated and so obviously arent in favour of reducing numbers and will keep on cutting if left to themselves. Who can blame them; after all they too aspire to be deliberately beatnik but still carry thousands of dollars worth of ipods, digital cameras and Gore-Tex so, the control is going to have to come from the wealthier and more educated nations, from the tourists who go there. Eco tourists are going to have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk and that should mean paying the real price of their visit! If they dont the environment and the locals will in the long run.
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