Climate Change & Survival.

[Woody girl]

I can only speak from first hand experience of a group trying to stop a development - I doubt very much if a single person could cause the building of windfarms to stop. Don Quixote never managed to beat the windmills

I was also involved in trying to stop a large wind turbine being built on a farm close to my parents' house. It was far bigger than the farm needed, was an eyesore, and noisy - we failed. So, another example of more than one person failing to stop the installation of a wind turbine.

What I suspect the media meant was that a single person can object thereby requiring a planning review - or something like that. But, of course, truth gets distorted in politics and the media.

Only 20 applications since 2015 have got through and been built, so perhaps yours was one of those. Doesn't make the report wrong or distorted.

 

[Broch]

Mmm... I beg to differ

 

[Woody girl]

It's funny, when you lot have something to back up, we plebs have to suck up your evidence that you post links to, to "prove" your point.
Should someone put up a view you disagree with, (now you know I'm useless at linking stuff) and give you my reference points, which it's easy to find and read about, it's poo pooed.
Reminds me of my father, who could not bear me telling him something that did not come into his sphere of knowledge, and would argue I didn't have a clue, as I didn't have a degree like him, so I must be talking nonsense.
If I had a different experience on the same subject, I was again talking nonsense as he had experienced that particular scenario and it was nothing like I said, so once again I was being stupid, and antagonistic for the hell of it, just to annoy him.
Please, go and check my sources before you throw them back at me with such dismissiveness. And if you find I'm correct, please don't just say you can't believe anything the media says. I've just listened to a the radio4 programme which had actual politicians speaking, and saying that the government condescended this particular point to avoid a backlash from many tory mp's.

 

[grainweevil]

I had a Google - as far as I can make out the law was changed in 2015 so that a single objection would halt the erection of onshore wind farms. Only onshore wind farms, not any old turbine in someone's field.

So arguably you're both right. Or both wrong. Or just at cross purposes. To be honest I'm confused. Call it a draw?

 

[Woody girl]

I had a Google - as far as I can make out the law was changed in 2015 so that a single objection would halt the erection of onshore wind farms. Only onshore wind farms, not any old turbine in someone's field.

So arguably you're both right. Or both wrong. Or just at cross purposes. To be honest I'm confused. Call it a draw?

Thank you, that's what I said.
I'm glad someone has had the sense to actualy look and check before trashing my post.
A single or couple of turbines is a different thing altogether from a windfarm...which if someone had cared to actualy check before typing a response, they would have realised.

 

[Stew]

I had a Google - as far as I can make out the law was changed in 2015 so that a single objection would halt the erection of onshore wind farms. Only onshore wind farms, not any old turbine in someone's field.

So arguably you're both right. Or both wrong. Or just at cross purposes. To be honest I'm confused. Call it a draw?

Not would but could.

 

[slowworm]

@Le Loup asked a question about Climate Change & the response he got was to be shouted down.

And I get the same response.

I wouldnt wish to defend the initial response because it was a bit rude but posting loads of links does come across as rather spammy and ranty.

I probably agree with much of what you say but the endless links puts me off and personally I'd prefer a few well written paragraphs of your own.

As a woodsman, gardener, smallholder etc with several decades experience I know the weather is changing and I'm more concerned with what to do in future than what has caused it.

I think the biggest problem is getting people to think and plan ahead. When people struggle to plan a week ahead, let alone a few months or do something like save for their retirement I can't see much being done until a disaster of such magnitude forces people to take action.

 

[Pattree]

It's funny, when you lot have something to back up, we plebs have to suck up your evidence that you post links to, to "prove" your point.

Acknowledgements - Tom Gauld NS

 

[Broch]

Not would but could.

Exactly, it causes a need for an enquiry - it does not stop the process.

And WG, I was not doubting you at all, I just don't believe media coverage for anything; I was just quoting my own experience - that, I believe.

 

[Woody girl]

I wouldnt wish to defend the initial response because it was a bit rude but posting loads of links does come across as rather spammy and ranty.

I probably agree with much of what you say but the endless links puts me off and personally I'd prefer a few well written paragraphs of your own.

As a woodsman, gardener, smallholder etc with several decades experience I know the weather is changing and I'm more concerned with what to do in future than what has caused it.

I think the biggest problem is getting people to think and plan ahead. When people struggle to plan a week ahead, let alone a few months or do something like save for their retirement I can't see much being done until a disaster of such magnitude forces people to take action.

That's where I come from aswell. I have similar background homeless in the late 70s, to since the 1980s.
I've had a smallholding , and am now volunteering one day a week on one.
I've lived outside most of my life in one way or another, from being a horsey child, to nowadays a bushcraft and wilderness enthusiast.
I have a diploma in permaculture, I've worked as a volenteer for btcv, dartmoor rangers, , small woodlands and have qualifications in forestry. I've done archaeology, trained as an outdoor sports instructor, and much more. No desk jockey job for me!
I have realy noticed the climate change, as I spend so much time outside, and try to live a life that does not rely on modernity to function.
I think, apart from missing fresh milk and tea bags, if things went bell up, I'm pretty self sufficient, and only buy stuff nowadays that works in a "grid down for weeks" scenario.
I live a good and busy life, even if it takes me much longer to do something than it would for others. It gets done.
Busy making things all the time. Today, I made buttons from wood, knitted a few more rows of a tea cosy, and started excavating a new veg bed in the last neglected part of the garden....I've been at it for two days so far on and off, and I say excavating, as I'm finding all sorts of things, from metal grids, to spanners, and even one of those plastic builders bags!!
I will get it done by and by, even though its probably half a days work for a fit person.
Little by little, I will become much more self sufficient.
My fun light moment for the day, was going for a paddle in the river, to catch minnows with a kids fishing net, and watching horrified as my friend fell in fully clothed.! Then we lay on the grass cloudwatching and discovering dogs and faces etc in them while we dried out.
Not all doom and gloom, make time for simple joys that cost nothing.

I hate all those boring dam links aswell! Anything can be proved by linking to something that agrees with your particular world view (take the mmr vaccine furor years ago, which "scientifically"linked it to autism, which the guy eventualy admitted was a complete fraud) and I often find it a bit of a "tactic" to put someone down, and make the poster seem superior, as they " have read a learned peer reviewed article." which means it gets ignored anyway.
Which that means it works against the intention.
Anyway Broc, truce..for now!!!

 

[Suffolkrafter]

Wind turbines are neither clean nor cheap. But they are cleaner and cheaper than oil. Same applies to electric cars. Over their lifespan, they're cleaner and cheaper than petrol powered cars, contrary to what some skeptics claim. Green energy certainly isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction. One thing humans are good at is innovation, so hopefully green energy technology will only improve. If only we were so good at accepting change.

 

[Woody girl]

I remember my grandmother telling me about how everyone was up in arms ,when she was a child, about the new pylons marching across the countryside, spoiling views and generaly being unpopular, as they rolled out electrical connection to many areas of the country that had no electric brfore, and still relied on oil lamps etc.
They brought electricity to homes, and made life better.
we now take it for granted, and barely register pylons anymore. In fact, we'd be demanding them to be put back if they were removed, and we didn't have the option of putting them underground.
If you had the choice of a windfarm nearby, or, no windfarm and no power, I wonder how many people would still be nimbys, and choose to reject a windfarm?
The argument of them being not clean or cheap, I always find a bit strange. Is coal fired or gas fired electric any cleaner, or cheaper? What about the cost of all the infrastructure reqired, and im not just talking about the physical infrastructure of the burning plant, or the extraction plant and the costs involved in those, huge cost to the land and ecology aswell.
There is always a cost for any energy generation.
If the costs of a windfarm worry you, perhaps you should go back to whale oil lamps and cooking on woodstoves....oh wait...We'd have to kill whales and chop down trees.

 

[TLM]

Is coal fired or gas fired electric any cleaner, or cheaper?

Hydroelectric power stations are the cleanest with solar, just that they destroy the rivers and solar cells destroy views. Windmills kill birds, lots of birds. Gas electric is basically the cleanest power station burning something.

Then there is nuclear power.

 

[grainweevil]

I'd like to see more effort made in regard to tidal power. Just like wind and water mills, there used to be tidal mills, so why not? You can't beat the reliability, and we have an awful lot of tidal coastline.

 

[ManFriday4]

I wouldnt wish to defend the initial response because it was a bit rude but posting loads of links does come across as rather spammy and ranty.

I probably agree with much of what you say but the endless links puts me off and personally I'd prefer a few well written paragraphs of your own.

As a woodsman, gardener, smallholder etc with several decades experience I know the weather is changing and I'm more concerned with what to do in future than what has caused it.

I think the biggest problem is getting people to think and plan ahead. When people struggle to plan a week ahead, let alone a few months or do something like save for their retirement I can't see much being done until a disaster of such magnitude forces people to take action.

The difference between opinion & science is evidence. Mostly people who don't have evidence to back up their opinions shout very loudly accuse people of spamming and think they have nothing to learn from the evidence or complain that the evidence is too complicated.

There's something called the Dunning Kruger Effect. It's common in Bushcraft and among people who think climate change is a scam or hoax. You cannot possibly know what you don't know, and that is a big problem with bushcraft & climate change.

Weather and climate are not the same.

If you want to pull professional rank, im an ecologist with a Masters in soil ecology.

The disaster isn't about to happen, it's happening now & either people are looking the other way or trying to pick arguments over the language we use.

Ray Mears says we need to act now & we face a man made disaster. You can look for the video on YouTube so you don't feel I'm spamming you

 

[Broch]

Wind turbines are neither clean nor cheap. But they are cleaner and cheaper than oil. Same applies to electric cars. Over their lifespan, they're cleaner and cheaper than petrol powered cars, contrary to what some skeptics claim. Green energy certainly isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction. One thing humans are good at is innovation, so hopefully green energy technology will only improve. If only we were so good at accepting change.

Whereas I agree with you; I think it's important that people actually assess the benefits to the environment by looking at the science rather than reading the daily newspapers (I'm not accusing you of doing that, just people in general).

Over the lifetime of a wind turbine (25 to 30 years, although ones I worked on some 32 years ago are still operating) it has generated power with zero emissions. However, if you believe the power generation figures, it takes about 20 years to overcome the environmental cost of manufacturer (extraction of raw materials such as steel, aluminium, copper, and rare earth elements e.g., neodymium, dysprosium for the magnets), manufacturing of wind turbine components, including the tower, blades, and nacelle, transportation of large and heavy components, often internationally .... so, we are making things worse now by building them, for the saving in emissions later. We have not yet solved some of the decommissioning and recycling problems that are not even in the balance equations. I won't go into the grossly overstated figures about wind power generation in the UK which clearly affects the equations.

To some extent, the same issues apply to electric cars - especially the environmental cost of battery material extraction which has polluted some extraction sites (and cost lives). The recycling and disposal costs apply to this market as well.

Just because people question the politically biased media does not mean they are anti the adoption of greener ways of living. We just need to do it without rose tinted glasses.

I accept climate change is happening, I accept it is critical we take action, I am all for reducing our consumption of fossil fuels, but we are not going to stop global warming and we need to be addressing the bigger issues - that's what keeps me awake at night.

 

[ManFriday4]

Nuclear, hydro, PV. None of them stop the heating, solve the food crisis or pull CO2

I remember my grandmother telling me about how everyone was up in arms ,when she was a child, about the new pylons marching across the countryside, spoiling views and generaly being unpopular, as they rolled out electrical connection to many areas of the country that had no electric brfore, and still relied on oil lamps etc.
They brought electricity to homes, and made life better.
we now take it for granted, and barely register pylons anymore. In fact, we'd be demanding them to be put back if they were removed, and we didn't have the option of putting them underground.
If you had the choice of a windfarm nearby, or, no windfarm and no power, I wonder how many people would still be nimbys, and choose to reject a windfarm?
The argument of them being not clean or cheap, I always find a bit strange. Is coal fired or gas fired electric any cleaner, or cheaper? What about the cost of all the infrastructure reqired, and im not just talking about the physical infrastructure of the burning plant, or the extraction plant and the costs involved in those, huge cost to the land and ecology aswell.
There is always a cost for any energy generation.
If the costs of a windfarm worry you, perhaps you should go back to whale oil lamps and cooking on woodstoves....oh wait...We'd have to kill whales and chop down trees.

There are not enough Wales left for that, the extractivist economy reduced them to the current population. There aren't enough fish left to feed them.

 

[ManFriday4]

Most of the links I have posted are not to newspapers. I know no one trusts the billionaire media, but somehow some guy who puts stuff on YouTube is more trustworthy.

I have been watching the British Preppers postings on the YouTube. The WEF, Davos, climate lock downs and the pandemic and an imminent lockdown seem more important than climate change or severe heat because again weather is mistaken for climate.

"Professor Christina Pagel, of University College London, told i: “I think the chance of another lockdown is somewhere between ‘extremely unlikely’ and ‘vanishingly unlikely’."

I'm less likely to believe a prepper than a professor of public health professional.

The Dunning Kruger Effect in Bushcraft is something Paul Kirtley talks about it with regards to Bushcraft. I would extend it to bushcrafters and climate change too.

 

[Woody girl]

I live about 30 miles or so, depending on road or crow fly, from the new hinkly point nuclear power station that is being built...millions of pounds over cost, still not finished, let alone online, and still years to go.
I won't go on about the new roads built, and the jobs that were promised to locals, but most workers are from elsewhere, and bussed in daily from miles away, having taken all the home rental options away from locals.
Cheap energy??? That's what we were promised back in the day when these things were first proposed and being built. They have to be paid for, and it's us that pay with our bills. Where is that cheap energy? I don't see it do you?
Within a mile is a small hydro system, barely noticeable, you could drive past it and never know. It's clean, low cost, and once built there are no pollution of the environment in any way it once provided electric for the whole town.
8 miles away, is a windfarm. I have no problem with it. I would spend most Wednesdays at a bike meet under these things. I never noticed any noise, and often forgot they were there.
They have a kind of beauty that makes my heart rise every time I see them, as it did when I approached Delabole in Cornwall every year on my holiday for many years.
I would visit the place regularly, and spend many happy hours on their open week visiting and learning about the place and alternative energy in general.

If we want energy, we have to accept there is a price somewhere along the line.

We also have to accept that the world is now on runaway climate change, basically we've missed the boat (ark) and nothing we can do now, will make any difference.
That's a fact, though I'm sure many will dispute it, not wanting to accept that is the truth, and believing we have a solution somewhere,... just out of sight.
I'm resigned to the fact that mankind has argued and dithered for too long.
It's a shame. We could have done this, even 20 years ago.

 

[slowworm]

If you want to pull professional rank, im an ecologist with a Masters in soil ecology.

I have no rank to pull. I was trying to point out what I've noticed over the years on social media - long posts with loads of links tend to be ignored or ridiculed regardless of their content. If you wish to convince people to do something you need to work on getting your point across.