The Amish as a source
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Agreed. Or should I say, they were exceptional because they were actually reported to the police and made public? From everything I've seen and read about the Amish, they tend to keep their issues within the community, and rarely call in outside help.
I guess I just find it rather interesting that a bushcrafting site like this one - whose members are, on the whole , fiercely independent and protective of their right to do what they want to do without let or hindrance - should find this type of autocratic, limited and stifling way of life so fascinating, however bucolic it might appear on the surface!
Their beards are NOT symbolic. They have them because to shave would require personal vanity and a mirror (which WOULD be symbolic of personal vanity) Both of which are abhored by the Amish.
As to the reports of force, I frankly have serious doubts about their authenticity (merely because it is so out of character for the Amish) but I won't dispute them (merely because I wasn't there) IF!! And I do mean IF!! they are true, then it is unlikely that whoever perpetrated such acts are still allowed within their respective communities.
Second time of asking folks; please return the thread to the topic, re craft skills of interest to bushcrafters.
M
M
No community is perfect however some are more perfect than others and given the balance of consideration, on what I have seen of several "communities" albeit in a limited sense, theirs is considerably more towards the better end of the scale than the one I currently find myself a part of. Perhaps this says more about myself than them.
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robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I have little personal experience of the Amish so am loath to comment but....
Back in the 80s a friend and I led a Student Conservation Association program trail building on the Appalachian Trail. 8 kids 16-18 living up the hill in a camp for 5 weeks and working on a section of trail. It was quite an experience for all of us. We had one Amish lad with us and he gave me a fair insight into both the pros and the cons of the life. Maybe he was at that stage of deciding whether it was the right life for him or not as most of us question the life we have been brought up with when we are that age.
He told me that with regard to technology when any new invention came along the elders met and talked long and hard about whether this development was actually beneficial to society or not. Now it may or may not work in practice but I find the thought of a group of wise old souls taking that decision interesting, as against our system that says, does it pay? and is it against any current law, no? then we will do it.
The lad concerned was the only one of our group that came to us with basic skills, could light and maintain a fire and cook on it, basic camp hygiene, use tools, build structures, get on with people etc. In fact so much so that my co-leader ended up giving him a job.
I do find the use of the word cult rather loaded.
To put the cultural issues to bed I would say that one must look at the Amish the same way we look at tribes in the Amazon. There is much to learn, much is strange but they have a culture that must be respected (barring law breaking). They neither need nor asked for our approval. Their skills are priceless if the grid went down as are Amazonian tribal skills if lost in the rainforest.
I know very little about the Amish and so i've found this thread very interesting. One small point, if they shun all modern technology what did they use to take the photographs of the members they had shaved ?
I don't know.
However they do not shun all modern technology, you can read the 'Ordnung' link above for more details, new technologies or devices are subject to a 'review process' to ascertain whether or they might encourage the wrong kind of outlook, thoughts and actions.
So a phone in your house - no
A phone in an unlocked outbuilding or barn - yes
An electricity supply from the 'outside' world - no
Gas bottles to heat an animal barn or workshop - yes
All very odd to us, but it works for them, mostly.
Biker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Gotta say I love the whole concept of taking a certain pride in something you've made for its form and function. I'm not a big fan of unecessary embelishing or decoration. Saying that though carvings are a whole different ballgame. Another style I like is the Shaker style furniture, clean and smiple lines on that too, whereas Baroque furniture is the other end of the scale. Pig ugly. Clever, but just too much. Gothic style is nicer but in a way another example of the maker just showing off. 
Seeing that the Amish ethic seems to be form and function yeah we could learn a lot from them, and in some respect their whole lifestyle. There's a lot of positives about being in a community that actually cares for it's own.
Interesting post. Thanks.
Seeing that the Amish ethic seems to be form and function yeah we could learn a lot from them, and in some respect their whole lifestyle. There's a lot of positives about being in a community that actually cares for it's own.
Interesting post. Thanks.
Some Amish do some very nice woodworking.
Plus I don't know about anyone else here but there's something I like about using handtools to make things.
I suppose it depends on pricing and so on as productivity is (or at least can be in the right hands) far higher with powertools but I remember an old joiner who lived close to us having a waterwheel powered workshop. I went round his workshop as a kid and was fascinated by all the belts across the place and the water powered tools. He managed just fine.
Can't remember him carving any spoons though...
Plus I don't know about anyone else here but there's something I like about using handtools to make things.
I suppose it depends on pricing and so on as productivity is (or at least can be in the right hands) far higher with powertools but I remember an old joiner who lived close to us having a waterwheel powered workshop. I went round his workshop as a kid and was fascinated by all the belts across the place and the water powered tools. He managed just fine.
Can't remember him carving any spoons though...
At first glance a simple community lifestyle is very attractive. But realistically, for me, there would need to be several modern gadgets to survive:
Electricity (locally generated)
Internet, probably (still need my hit of BCUK)
Tractor and ploughs or at least a rotavator
Locally produced fuel for the tractor/rotavator
For farming it would be nice to use a horse or horses to plough, harrow, haul trees etc. Not sure at what scale horse power gives way to tractor in terms of time for tasks, acreage in a given time and cost of running. As a kid I remember a plank saw running with belts from a tractor. Perhaps the tractor could be used for electricity generation too?
Wind and Ground source heat pumps (my favourite) could also be used for electricity.
The first year would only be practical if there was money/stocks of foods and fuel to keep the community going until crops come to harvest. If we have a season like this one the security of our crops would be in grave danger. If the woodland is large enough to sustain harvesting for our needs and provide a surplus, then logs sales will bring in cash.
A sustainable woodland is probably the best solution for fuel.
Ideally we will have a collection of artisans why can shoe the horse(s), beat metal into usable shapes, build our beds, tables and chairs. More likely in the early days we will either have to muddle through or use money to buy in the skills/products.
My gut feeling is that a self sustaining community has a minimum number of members and a maximum, largely based on the land and woodland size.
So whose putting up the land and woodland?
Electricity (locally generated)
Internet, probably (still need my hit of BCUK)
Tractor and ploughs or at least a rotavator
Locally produced fuel for the tractor/rotavator
For farming it would be nice to use a horse or horses to plough, harrow, haul trees etc. Not sure at what scale horse power gives way to tractor in terms of time for tasks, acreage in a given time and cost of running. As a kid I remember a plank saw running with belts from a tractor. Perhaps the tractor could be used for electricity generation too?
Wind and Ground source heat pumps (my favourite) could also be used for electricity.
The first year would only be practical if there was money/stocks of foods and fuel to keep the community going until crops come to harvest. If we have a season like this one the security of our crops would be in grave danger. If the woodland is large enough to sustain harvesting for our needs and provide a surplus, then logs sales will bring in cash.
A sustainable woodland is probably the best solution for fuel.
Ideally we will have a collection of artisans why can shoe the horse(s), beat metal into usable shapes, build our beds, tables and chairs. More likely in the early days we will either have to muddle through or use money to buy in the skills/products.
My gut feeling is that a self sustaining community has a minimum number of members and a maximum, largely based on the land and woodland size.
So whose putting up the land and woodland?
And yet, I don't. Sorry if thats not 'bushcrafty' or in the spirit of things.
I have a personality, and a free will, and a desire to experience new places and cultures. I also enjoy contact physical sports and one on one competitions with the same, both competing (although, it's at senior level now, and thats more about age than skill!) andwatching the same.
I will also protect my family. to mine or others death if I have to, from outside harm.
I also admire technology, and the pursuit of understanding. But then I'm Scottish with an engineering degree, and come from a small nation that has given the world more than I could ever list here. See link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries
All in then, I'd make a pretty rubbish Amish.
Not for me.
Dreadhead
Bushcrafter through and through
it seems everyone is completely ignoring the mods here. to get back on track a little does anyone know what firelighting tools they use as im curious if they use matches or fire steels etc. and perhaps what sort of knives they might use? they are not buying rambo knives off the shopping channels so would imagine they use fairly traditional styled knives probably passed down through their community
Interesting lot the Amish.
Pal of mine and his wife were the doctors to a local community, it got a bit problematic when there was only one telephone per community and that was in a box in the middle of the street... no one could be bothered to answer it!
From the observations of Graham and Whitney the Amish sort of live in both worlds as they will trade with comunities who deal in more modern goods, so its not the utopian world that many wish for and of course who is going to distill the kerosen for the lamps?
Given there stand point the Amish have a rich cultural and well researched body of useable herbal knowlege that covers everything from medicine to meat preservation. W&G were invited to lots of pig slaughtering parties which were hard to endure, also could not wear buttons on there clothing when visiting, or zips for that matter. When visiting they wore long grey coats which made them look like extras in a vampire move! When I asked Whitey, who was a Plain Quaker, if she could live the life she replied 'hard, cold, tough, long hours and the shoes areawful'.
They do have a very strong sense of community so indivduals who fall on misfortune do not go hungry and the old are cared for. They said if you think of a turn of the century (1901) farming community that would be about what it was like. So if your interested look at the TV programs Victorian and Edwardian farm
Sandsnakes
Pal of mine and his wife were the doctors to a local community, it got a bit problematic when there was only one telephone per community and that was in a box in the middle of the street... no one could be bothered to answer it!
From the observations of Graham and Whitney the Amish sort of live in both worlds as they will trade with comunities who deal in more modern goods, so its not the utopian world that many wish for and of course who is going to distill the kerosen for the lamps?
Given there stand point the Amish have a rich cultural and well researched body of useable herbal knowlege that covers everything from medicine to meat preservation. W&G were invited to lots of pig slaughtering parties which were hard to endure, also could not wear buttons on there clothing when visiting, or zips for that matter. When visiting they wore long grey coats which made them look like extras in a vampire move! When I asked Whitey, who was a Plain Quaker, if she could live the life she replied 'hard, cold, tough, long hours and the shoes areawful'.
They do have a very strong sense of community so indivduals who fall on misfortune do not go hungry and the old are cared for. They said if you think of a turn of the century (1901) farming community that would be about what it was like. So if your interested look at the TV programs Victorian and Edwardian farm
Sandsnakes
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Matches, zippo lighters, they use candles but also coleman lanterns and paraffin lamps. They don't shun technology par se, they are just a lot more selective on what technology they embrace.
Dreadhead
Bushcrafter through and through
cheers Rik. i thought they would have taken a more sustainable approach what with their ideals but maybe im not getting it clearly. also wonder about their methods for woodland management id like to think they use teams of 2-3 with axes and hand saws
