Survival whistles

[Quixoticgeek]

Re-read my post. I agreed with you on that point. But it's useless if nobody knows to call that number; and almost nobody here has ever heard of it.

Ah right, that meaning of "work". Yeah, ignorance is always going to screw up an other wise good plan...

No. I believe MRT are very capable; just not in comparison to the professionals.

I do question this. What metric are you measuring that on? Just because someone is paid for a job doesn't mean they do it well, look at politicians...

Thanks. That's exactly what I meant by "auxiliary." By comparison, our Coast Guard is a full time paramilitary force with active duty as well as reserve members and an auxiliary (volunteers)

The CAP is likewise a volunteer force and as stated they're the USAF's auxiliary. They were created to do anti submarine patrols in WWII, but after the war their mission changed and has been entirely SAR ever since.

Both also with very sophisticated equipment.; The Coast Guard obviously has much more sophisticated equipment with a much, much, much bigger budget; equipment such as Dolphin helicopters, Blackhawk helicopters, C-130 Hercules, and Full size Cutters.

Note, at the time of writing, SAR helicopters in the UK are staffed and operated by the RAF, a professional group. They are however trying to privatise it, not sure currently what the status is of that. I know they have closed the airport locally that the SAR chopper was going to be operated from...

Julia

 

[santaman2000]

......I do question this. What metric are you measuring that on? Just because someone is paid for a job doesn't mean they do it well....

"Paid" isn't the only thing that should be inferred by the word "professional." In this case my use of the word indicates that the CG personnel spend at least 8 hours per day, and at least 5 days per week either performing rescues or doing recurring training for said rescues. And that's after an initial training (in residence with no duties other than the training) of several months.

Our CG has their own aircraft, pilots, and maintenance personnel and don't need to depend on outside help from the other services. Indeed, one CG pilot made the space program and served as commander of the International Space Station.

I expect the RAF helicopter pilots assigned to SAR do very professionally, but they're only one part of the entire SAR team. Imagine how well they could do if the RAF had it's own unit dedicated to SAR and all members of the SAR team were RAF servicemen trained solely for the tasks associated with the SAR efforts. ALL members; the rescue swimmers, the ground searchers, the coxswains, the officers commanding the search, the rescue medics, the electronics personnel monitoring the rescue frequencies, etc. That's essentially what the CG is. A paramilitary force with a very large part dedicated solely to SAR.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Hey Julia

There's no phone signal either outside our village. 112 won't do you any good here.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Hey Julia

There's no phone signal either outside our village. 112 won't do you any good here.

I did qualify my statement with "connected".

Please tell me you own a PLB?

J

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Hey Julia

There's no phone signal either outside our village. 112 won't do you any good here.

Hey Toddy. I think I mean this. http://www.mountainrescuescotland.org/advice/ sorry for the mistake.

English too hard. Cree easier to describe things.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

I did qualify my statement with "connected".

Please tell me you own a PLB?

J

I don't know anyone in the village who has one of those. What are they?*











* sorry bad joke. I do know what they are but none of us have one.

 

[Laurentius]

"Paid" isn't the only thing that should be inferred by the word "professional." In this case my use of the word indicates that the CG personnel spend at least 8 hours per day, and at least 5 days per week either performing rescues or doing recurring training for said rescues. And that's after an initial training (in residence with no duties other than the training) of several months.

It goes back to the notions of gentleman and players I suspect. I spent a number of years as a trustee of a national charity, essentially doing the same job as a director of small to medium sized company. Trustees of charities are not paid, whereas directors of many companies, even if they are only director in name only are. The responsibities were none the less, we disposed of monies entrusted to us by the public, but more than that we had the ultimate responsibility for peoples lives as a charity involved in care. The ultimate sanction if we had got it wrong would have been a charge of corporate manslaughter. Not in any way the equivalent of being a member of a mountain rescue or lifeboat team, but the law required that we should be just as professional about our duties as if we were paid.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I don't know anyone in the village who has one of those. What are they?

PLB - Personal Locator Beacon
EPIRB - Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon

There are different types, the main ones are Satellite based or radio based. In Sat based PLB's, you hit the magic button, and it sends a message including your lat/long to a satellite in orbit over head. This is relayed to a operations centre somewhere, that monitors the signals 24/7. They take that distress signal, work out who is responsible in that area, and contacts them to come get you. The advanced sat PLB's allow you to send text messags as well so you as well as the generic "I need help" message, you can also say "broken leg, lone hiker" or "arterial bleed, in group of 10" or what ever you need. There are a number of different sat PLB's on the market, SPOT and Delorme InReach being two common ones.

The radio types, just send out a distress signal that can be picked up by those near by who are tuned to the right frequency, it's a bit like a radio frequency whistle. It does require someone to be close enough, and also listening on the right frequency.

J

 

[santaman2000]

It goes back to the notions of gentleman and players I suspect. I spent a number of years as a trustee of a national charity, essentially doing the same job as a director of small to medium sized company. Trustees of charities are not paid, whereas directors of many companies, even if they are only director in name only are. The responsibities were none the less, we disposed of monies entrusted to us by the public, but more than that we had the ultimate responsibility for peoples lives as a charity involved in care. The ultimate sanction if we had got it wrong would have been a charge of corporate manslaughter. Not in any way the equivalent of being a member of a mountain rescue or lifeboat team, but the law required that we should be just as professional about our duties as if we were paid.

Yeah that's about the size of it. In this case (SAR) the advantage of being paid is that they have the opportunity to dedicate full time to the training rather than on their time off from their "real" jobs.

That doesn't take anything away from the personal dedication and drive of the volunteers though. I hope I haven't implied anything derogatory towards the volunteer services. That certainly wasn't my intention.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

PLB - Personal Locator Beacon
EPIRB - Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon

There are different types, the main ones are Satellite based or radio based. In Sat based PLB's, you hit the magic button, and it sends a message including your lat/long to a satellite in orbit over head. This is relayed to a operations centre somewhere, that monitors the signals 24/7. They take that distress signal, work out who is responsible in that area, and contacts them to come get you. The advanced sat PLB's allow you to send text messags as well so you as well as the generic "I need help" message, you can also say "broken leg, lone hiker" or "arterial bleed, in group of 10" or what ever you need. There are a number of different sat PLB's on the market, SPOT and Delorme InReach being two common ones.

The radio types, just send out a distress signal that can be picked up by those near by who are tuned to the right frequency, it's a bit like a radio frequency whistle. It does require someone to be close enough, and also listening on the right frequency.

J

Hey Julia

We have anglo/white hunters/canoeists/fisherman come up here sometimes with stuff like that. But you can't rely on them and they are expensive for us to buy. So they try to phone home on their satellite phones. But we don't have reliable reception. Something to do with the way the satellites orbit the earth. They can't work this far north. you have only a signal once or twice a day sometimes never.

Wadji me'ksumsi''it

 

[Toddy]

Would someone come look for you it you didn't return home in a timely fashion, Joe ?

That's the thing about being an island people.....sooner or later we bump into someone

Our weather is so very changeable and very unreliable. It can literally make a Summer's hill walk into a hypothermia rescue exercise and all of the mountain and hillwalking guidelines say to leave your expected itinery, and a 'home by' time either with your vehicle or someone you know will contact rescue services.

Put it this way; you go out in Winter in snow, and you dress and act accordingly ? yes ? we can go out in snow and find ourselves overdressed and sweating and then soaked to the skin with rain, and then a bitter cold wind gets up, and then it freezes, so the snowy walk became a wet one that is now a treacherous ice one.....and it'll do that in a couple of hours.

Very different climate, very different landmass, very different population density.

It makes things challenging, even if our islands do seem 'tame' to outsiders. Tourists die all too often simply by underestimating our weather and judging it on that which they are familiar with.

Anyway, to the topic. Whistles; useful things when necessary

M

 

[tsitenha]

Toddy, with Joe it's a cultural way of life, not the same mindset. In different posts he is trying to explain his perspective, trying to "translate" your experience with his. Doesn't always come out literally.
Now, we use the Fox 40, we have them in different colours for each of us so we can identify the signalers (wait for it.........)
Our hockey refs. in the past used the Acme Thunderer with no ill affect, it is has a rubber mouth covering if desired, I have used them for years only adding the Fox 40 lately. Use what you have, just test it out before going traipsing, but it has it's limitation.

 

[tsitenha]

Would someone come look for you it you didn't return home in a timely fashion, Joe ?

For Joe, he's away, may I respond (in a good way)

They will, but it may take a while, depends on on the margin of tardiness used, destination. For myself its, on a 7 day trip, wait 3 days, get my destination maps out, wait another days then come a looking, for a month 7 days wait.
The difference is where I sleep that night that's home, we use waterways mostly, bush is very thick.
My great grand father was the last dedicated tracker in our family, could track a mouse f*rt in a hurricane

 

[Toddy]

I admit that I thought that Joe's 'outdoors' was very different from ours in many ways.
The sheer scale of the landmass for a start, and the low population density for another.

If Himself's off out for a week, and he hasn't contacted me at all by the last day, then I'd phone and report an overdue.
A week out's pretty long here without any contact nowadays tbh.

Whistles were, and to a large extent still are, considered reliable in a way that torches weren't.
Now folks take mobile phones, and though the coverage is very good, it's not complete, and as Pete said, there are black spots. Same situation in the Alps too. The satellite ones are much better though, but expensive. I know a stalker whose wife is reassured that he has one and will use it when he's out shooting on his own. All too easy to have an accident dragging a carcass back down those steep hills and not have help nearby.

When I was little I was taught not to whistle (wasn't polite for girls) but there's a call, it's a kind of high, but back of the opened throat sound, a "HUh oh", that does sound through woodlands. Granny said it was how women out gathering kept in touch with the group.
Not quite coloured whistles, but voices are sometimes distinctive enough

Our biggest killer is often just the weather, and it doesn't matter how prepared you are for it, it can still throw up something different.
We call it Sod's Law

atb,
M

 

[tsitenha]

An other reason, perhaps also common to Joe, I was warned not to whistle in the bush for fear of attracting a Wendigo.

Love your version of a stalker here its a negative reference to one who creeps around, spies on and follows another human, usually a woman

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Oh, I only asked a simple question about whistles

Toddy and others. You asked about whether someone would come looking for me/us.

As tsitenha said, it all depends.

Lets say on a winter trip myself and one hunting partner are away for six weeks. We may have flown, canoed skidooed or dog sled to get well out in a new area of bush we trap. Lets say this is a hundred,or two hundred miles away. Our folks will know roughly were we are and roughly how long we'll be. But we don't keep a diary, we go for a reason. No point coming back until you have a full load or run out of supplies. We may also choose to split up and hunt our own trap lines which may put us twenty or more miles apart from each other and may be out for several days on our own.

Lets say one of us - me needs help. It might be several days before my hunting partner comes looking for me. (VHF radios don't work over long distances) Then he's got to help me or go back for help, that takes several more days even if he knows where my trap line is exactly.

Lets imagine we've got a sat phone. <MMMmmmm? Where's the plane gonna land? Can't land in the forest or tundra if we're up that way. No runways, deep snow cover makes landing a ski plane difficult and you may not be anywhere near enough for it to land. Then how are going to get to it? The plane can't wait for you to make it across the bush to find him. How are you going to talk to pilot? He may be able to throw messages out from the plane - but you can't throw them back! Helicopters? I'm not too sure they can reach far out into the bush and they too may have difficulty finding somewhere open to land if your in deep bush (forest) Either way your in big trouble unless you can solve your own problems.

Me and my hunting partner don't use or need maps for where we go as the game don't stick to the same place all the time. We know the ground well enough to know roughly where we are and I know I could look at maps, as I do, and say this is where I am and going. But the same as you don't need a map to travel from one town to another we don't neither in the bush.

But you asked would someone come looking for me/us from our community? They might eventually. I would, but I'd wait for enough days to pass before I/we set off. Why? The last thing another hunter would want is someone turning up on a wild goose chase because they thought you were in trouble and couldn't manage on your own. It would be like saying we don't think you can look after yourself without help.

Our safety is in our own hands and we think what might go wrong and avoid having the problem in the first place or know how to deal with it in the second place. Luckily we don't have too many accidents. That said I don't worry about what you call safety. I feel safe and secure in the bush.

I was more worried about getting run over in York on a sight seeing trip there with my English friends.

Thats all I can explain.

Thank you

 

[santaman2000]

......Lets imagine we've got a sat phone. <MMMmmmm? Where's the plane gonna land? Can't land in the forest or tundra if we're up that way. No runways, deep snow cover makes landing a ski plane difficult and you may not be anywhere near enough for it to land. Then how are going to get to it? The plane can't wait for you to make it across the bush to find him. How are you going to talk to pilot? He may be able to throw messages out from the plane - but you can't throw them back! Helicopters? I'm not too sure they can reach far out into the bush and they too may have difficulty finding somewhere open to land if your in deep bush (forest).....

The short answer is yes, a helicopter can make it that far, but probably only the specialized Air Force rescue helicopters with in flight refueling capabilities. And they don't have to land. They would hover and lower a PJ (Pararescue Jumper) first who would put the casualty in a thing called a Forrest Penetrator to be lifted back into the helicopter.

The whole concept was developed around rescuing injured pilots who were shot down hundreds of miles behind enemy lines. And doing so often under enemy fire. Entire squadrons are dedicated to just this mission.

How would they communicate? They'd just drop you a radio. It doesn't have to work over long distances, just to the aircraft that dropped it.

Of course the fly in the ointment is that they'd have to be looking for you in the first place, and that's not likely in your situation.

 

[Toddy]

Stalkers stalk deer

Most outdoor folks are pretty capable Joe; it's kind of par for the course really, but even the best prepared can slip on an icy crag, or take ill, or simply get totally turned around in a blizzard on a hill they don't know well.
If you can safely wait it out, suss out where you really are, then walk out, great, but a lot of people are glad the MR folks turn out.
I am quietly reassured that if any of mine get lost or in trouble then the MR teams will look for them. I happily contribute to their funding drives.

York's a lovely town gets a bit too busy during the tourist season right enough.

M

 

[cbr6fs]

We all do our own risk assessment and take our own risks, just one thing though about the phrase below

Lets say one of us - me needs help. It might be several days before my hunting partner comes looking for me. (VHF radios don't work over long distances) Then he's got to help me or go back for help, that takes several more days even if he knows where my trap line is exactly.

VHF radio is out of batteries and you've trying to contact your buddy for several days, or you're injured because you had a fall which in turn damaged your VHF radio.

Do you not think a good loud whistle would be a wise bit of kit to have with you "just in case"?

How is your buddy likely to find you otherwise, any tracks you left might be rained, snowed over by the time he has come looking for you, if the wind is slight at least there is a chance he/she will hear the whistle, without out how would you plan on advertising your location to them?

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

We all do our own risk assessment and take our own risks, just one thing though about the phrase below

Do you not think a good loud whistle would be a wise bit of kit to have with you "just in case"?

How is your buddy likely to find you otherwise, any tracks you left might be rained, snowed over by the time he has come looking for you,

If things got that bad, I'd fire my rifle.