Survival whistles

[brambles]

Scottish mountain rescue advise carrying a whistle, "Take a whistle and learn the signal for rescue. Six good long blasts. Stop for one minute. Repeat. Carry on the whistle blasts until someone reaches you and don't stop because you've heard a reply – rescuers may be using your blasts as a direction finder."

Any blasts are better than none, but usually the sign for distress is 3 blasts of the whistle within 1 min

I am not getting at you in particular, but since this is BushcraftUK and the majority of members are British and living and working in British weather, landscape, rules, laws etc etc , members from other countries should not contradict information given about those factors. I would not, for an extreme example, go onto a US forum and start ranting at people advocating carrying a pistol for protection in the bush that it is completely illegal and they face a minimum 5 year prison sentence, because our laws don't apply there!

 

[Toddy]

That's a very good point.....and here three blasts is the reply that help is coming.

M

 

[Quixoticgeek]

It's an interesting one, and IMHO, an area that really should be standardised. Some points of note:

- Deuter backpacks include under the lid a summary of useful emergency signalling information in both English and German:

- In marine situations, including coast lines, 6 blasts on a whistle has potential to cause confusion with a South cardinal buoy, which gives out 6 bells, or whistles (as well as 6 flashes of a light). This is why the emergency info announcement on a cross channel ferry mentions that an emergency will involve "6 blasts short blasts followed by one long blast on the ships horn along with the words 'General alarm'"

- Three audio alerts is a silly idea from a information redundancy point of view. In areas with weird acoustics, a single blast of the whistle can easily echo off the canyons, cliffs and mountains to sound like 3 distinct blasts. This means that if someone is using a single blast with their whistle to signal across the river to their friend that they are on the bank safe and it's now their turn to cross, could be interpreted by the mountain guide half a km up the canyon as someone in distress. It takes a certain amount of creativity to achieve an echo that sounds like 6 blasts.

- I completely agree with Brambles on this. Lets try to keep the information as accurate as we can for the bulk of the membership.

Julia

 

[Quixoticgeek]

There are certain areas and situations where hypothermia would be a concern but i wouldn't say they are massive.

In some of the more remote areas of Scotland if your car breaks down in winter then unless you have extra clothing or a sleeping bag hypothermia is a worry.
Most other areas though a house is in easy walking distance even in heavy snow.

BTW being stuck in a car in the middle of nowhere a whistle isn't going to be much use.

I disagree. Hypothermia and the effects of cold are really misunderstood. I've seen casualties get hypothermia while cycling in Kent in *MAY*. I've also seen a student get Hypothermia on a university campus in February, on a sunny Sunday afternoon when we were all exercising. That same afternoon I managed to get frost nip on two toes, which has lead to discomfort every time I get cold now.

One of the effects of Hypothermia is loss of cognitive function. By the time it's started to get severe, you've lost the ability to think clearly, maybe to remember to hunt for your whistle, or what the correct signal is to give.

Outdoors, hypothermia is a worry in winter if you get lost or sustain a injury, in this situation a whistle will be a useful method of signalling that your in distress and need help, even if you have a mobile phone signal it'll help SAR find your location quicker.

I disagree with your wording. Remove the words "in winter" from your paragraph and I agree. Hypothermia can set in year round. I've seen situations where you are treating someone in a group for Hypothermia, while treating another for Hyperthermia, and being mildly amused by how sunburnt another got. The mix of rain and wind can be fatal even on the hottest day of the year. If you don't believe me, climb Pen-y-Fan on a very windy, but hot day in the summer, Poor a bottle of water over you, and sit still till you find the shivering stops.

Just found this after a search
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9078273/Hypothermia-deaths-double-over-five-years.html

Have to say i'm really surprised, 260 deaths related the hypothermia in 2010/2011 was way more than i would have thought.
To put that into context though around 100 people are murdered by their spouse each year, in 2010 405 pedestrians, 111 cyclists, 402 bikers and 835 car occupants were killed on UK roads.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359012/indicator-table.xls

I am actually surprised that it's as low as 260. Your other stats do put a lot in perspective. I find it entertaining when you see people doing all sorts of things to address the risk of their outdoor activities, but fail to appreciate that the most dangerous part of their hiking trip in the Beacons is the walk to the station to catch a train there. Risk is really poorly understood. Humans are bad at quantifiable risk. It's both infuriating and amusing to watch.

Just to put it in perspective, more people die in the UK in trouser related accidents than from terrorism. (No data available for Kilt related accidents). Vending machines kill more people than guns in the UK. And you would be most entertained by the stats for biscuit related deaths.

Would be interesting to see how those hypothermia deaths were broke down, i.e. hikers, homeless, elderly etc
I would guess that by far the most deaths would be from the elderly or homeless IF that is the case the vast majority of those cases would be in cities, towns or areas with enough of a population density that a shout could have been heard.

So i think that the amount of deaths from hypothermia a whistle could have prevented would be very very small, the amount of deaths that would be caused my using a metal whistle even fewer.

Also factor in there those with dementia who go for a walk from the nursing home, and then die of exposure. I would love to see how those stats break down too. I would also be interested to know the stats for MRT/SAR rescue on Hypothermia.

The other thing is if the whistle is cold you can always stick it in your pocket, under your arm pit or somewhere else warm.
If hypothermia has set in to the point where this is not possible then it's highly unlikely you'd have the dexterity to blow a whistle of any type.

This why I am actually a big fan of the sternum strap whistles found on many backpacks these days. It saves you having to find the whistle in your pack (Murphy packs it in the bottom of your pack after all). If you've fallen over and landed on your pack you may be injured such that you can't get your pack off to access your whistle etc...

If you have got to the point of hypothermia where cognitive function is impaired, will you remember you put your whistle in your arm pit and need to take it out in a minute to use it?

By way of an experiment I think I may put my spare whistle in the freezer for a couple of hours, and then see how much it hurts to blow.

For me personally a whistle is a emergency device, if i need to blow it i'm having a bad day, so i want the loudest i can buy for the least amount of energy expelled.
Not sure how many have had broken ribs here, but from first hand experience it makes breathing difficult and painful, never mind blowing a whistle, so i don't care what colour the whistle is, what shape it is, as long as it's tough i don't care what it's made out of, i just want a reliable very very loud whistle.

I want the balance of volume of the blast, distance that pitch carries, ease of blowing, and ease of access. My balance point here is the sternum strap of my backpack, I find it to be very effective. I also have a ITW lifeboat whistle for when I don't have my pack on me.

Julia

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

This interests me a lot. I came to the UK recently and went to a place, I think the lake district park. (lots of small lakes). Very pretty, many people walking, looking all the time. The Paterdale team rescue team book I have mentions mobile phones a lot but no whistles.

I also look at the mountain rescue association of scotland website and they do not mention whistles. Use TXT, distress Beacon EPIRs GPS messenger sort of things but I couldnt find whistles mentioned.

I'm interested in how good whistles work in windy storms and how the people in the rescue planes or helicopters are able to hear you. Are they as loud as rifle/gunshot maybe?

Thank you
Joe.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

This interests me a lot. I came to the UK recently and went to a place, I think the lake district park. (lots of small lakes). Very pretty, many people walking, looking all the time. The Paterdale team rescue team book I have mentions mobile phones a lot but no whistles.

I think there may be a certain shift in perspective here. Those "lots of small lakes" are the largest lakes in Britain... Also some of them are Meers or lochs and hold on there is a QI question about this...

Most people don't take a whistle with them, most don't know how to use one properly, and most people don't know when to use one. Most people should donate more to their local MRT/SAR team...

I also look at the mountain rescue association of scotland website and they do not mention whistles. Use TXT, distress Beacon EPIRs GPS messenger sort of things but I couldnt find whistles mentioned.

This is my total lack of surprise. Tho I am surprised they mention EPIRBS.

I'm interested in how good whistles work in windy storms and how the people in the rescue planes or helicopters are able to hear you. Are they as loud as rifle/gunshot maybe?

I think this may be a North America vs Europe perspective mismatch.

In order: Search planes, AFAIK, our SAR aircraft are all rotor wing.

Search Helicopters, they are not going to hear a thing. If you are sat in the back of a whirly bird and try calling to the guy next to you, they won't hear you. So the chances of the whistle being heard by the chopper is about zero. What the whirly bird brings to the party is the FLIR unit, which apart from some curiously annoying weather conditions, will be a far better way of finding a person than the whistle.

Thing is, most of the time, the search team doesn't fly. It's going to be on foot. Volunteer from your local MRT/SAR team, will come out on foot onto the mountains to search. This is where the whistle is really useful.

To quote a local SAR team member:

"Even with all our modern technology, I have used a whistle for intra-team comms on a search. The wind made shouting impossible, and I'm sure some couldn't even hear their radios."

"My whistle is on the loop next to the radio dock on my vest. About equivalent to where I have it mounted on the rucksack strap. Left side, so I can reach over with my dominant hand."

Said person also offers:

"As somebody who has spent days at <-10C, I'd say plastic every time."

Just to correct some of my points earlier, marine general alarm is 7 blasts on the ships horn. Seven being more than any letter in MORSE, except SOS.

Further to my freezer experiment. I put in an ITW Nexus lifeboat whistle and an ITW Nexus sternum strap whistle in my freezer, left them at -18°C for 3 hour. I just took them out and blew them both.

Neither felt as cold on the lips as a cold glass of coke would from the fridge. Both were a comfortable temperature.

That said, both also got me a response. I blew a single blast from both whistles, which prompted my housemate to run in to see what I was upto. Which was slightly suboptimal as he was in the shower at the time...

Julia

 

[Laurentius]

This interests me a lot. I came to the UK recently and went to a place, I think the lake district park. (lots of small lakes). Very pretty, many people walking, looking all the time. The Paterdale team rescue team book I have mentions mobile phones a lot but no whistles.

I also look at the mountain rescue association of scotland website and they do not mention whistles. Use TXT, distress Beacon EPIRs GPS messenger sort of things but I couldnt find whistles mentioned.

I'm interested in how good whistles work in windy storms and how the people in the rescue planes or helicopters are able to hear you. Are they as loud as rifle/gunshot maybe?

Thank you
Joe.

I have just looked at a number of websites that do mention a whistle, I expect in a howling storm it's usefulness is diminished, but it is still going to be more effective than shouting. Put it this way, there is no reason not to carry a whistle. As for mobile phones, most of the places I have been in Wales, they are useless until you get to a certain height above the valleys.

 

[santaman2000]

It's an interesting one, and IMHO, an area that really should be standardised......

True; but TBH we can't even agree to standardize the emergency phone numbers so are you really surprised?

.....I'm interested in how good whistles work in windy storms and how the people in the rescue planes or helicopters are able to hear you. Are they as loud as rifle/gunshot maybe?

Thank you
Joe.

As others have said, they don't work as well in windy storms but even then they work better than yelling.

....In order: Search planes, AFAIK, our SAR aircraft are all rotor wing.

Search Helicopters, they are not going to hear a thing......

.....Thing is, most of the time, the search team doesn't fly. It's going to be on foot. Volunteer from your local MRT/SAR team, will come out on foot onto the mountains to search. This is where the whistle is really useful......

Yep. Here the initial search is likely to be a ground search as well. As you said, no noise is likely to be heard by anybody in a search aircraft.

Our search aircraft vary by just who's doing the search:
-CAP (Civil Air Patrol) www.gocivilairpatrol.com will be a small single engine fixed wing aircraft
-Coast Guard www.uscg.mil can be anything from a small helicopter up to a C-130
-Local or State (Provincial in Canada) Law Enforcement (to include local city police, county sheriffs, and state/provincial Fish & Wildlife Enforcement) will likely be either a small helicopter or single engine fixed wing

 

[Toddy]

I also look at the mountain rescue association of scotland website and they do not mention whistles. Use TXT, distress Beacon EPIRs GPS messenger sort of things but I couldnt find whistles mentioned.

Joe.

I assure you they are mentioned....
" 6 blasts of whistle or 6 flashes of light repeated at one minute intervals "
about three quarters of the way down this page.

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/mountain-rescue.asp

M

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Hello Toddy. Sorry I didn't understand. I didn't look at the mountaineering council of Scotland webssite. Only the Mountain Rescue Association of Scotland website. But no matter

It is all about perspective and cultural differences.

Here, if I used a whistle I would never expect to be found. Ever. We have no rescue like you have in the UK. Ours is planes only up here. No one would be able to look for you on foot. The communtiy where I live has only 3 others within 100 miles. There are no roads. Just forest, lakes and rivers for a thousand miles before you hit Hudson bay to the NE. No one lives there. I hunt traplines in winter (you cannot travel overland here in summer much) and when I trap on my own there is no one else near me or other hunters for hundred or more miles.

I was thinking these were special whistles...... My fault, my written English isn't so good anymore.

Hey Julia, my friend in England told me that there were only lakes in England and that Lochs were in Scotland. But then I think he tells me other strange things I don't hear properly.

Thank you for all being patient, Wa'dji wannumin t'he'o

 

[Laurentius]

Hey Julia, my friend in England told me that there were only lakes in England and that Lochs were in Scotland. But then I think he tells me other strange things I don't hear properly.

Thank you for all being patient, Wa'dji wannumin t'he'o

Lochs in Scotland and Ireland (lough is the Irish spelling)
Llynau (the plural of Llyn) in Wales

Tarns up north, and meres just about everywhere else. Water can also signify a lake as in Derwent Water for instance.

Largest lake in terms of volume of water is Loch Ness in Scotland, holds more water than all the other lakes in England and Wales combined. It is also very cold and makes for a bracing morning swim if you are so inclined, you might need the whistle to scare off Nessie though

 

[Quixoticgeek]

True; but TBH we can't even agree to standardize the emergency phone numbers so are you really surprised?

Oh we can, pick up any connected phone on the planet, and dial 112. You *WILL* get emergency services.

Yep. Here the initial search is likely to be a ground search as well. As you said, no noise is likely to be heard by anybody in a search aircraft.

Our search aircraft vary by just who's doing the search:
-CAP (Civil Air Patrol) www.gocivilairpatrol.com will be a small single engine fixed wing aircraft
-Coast Guard www.uscg.mil can be anything from a small helicopter up to a C-130
-Local or State (Provincial in Canada) Law Enforcement (to include local city police, county sheriffs, and state/provincial Fish & Wildlife Enforcement) will likely be either a small helicopter or single engine fixed wing

How worrying... Perhaps I am spoilt in how well the Uk is served by MRT/SAR...

It is all about perspective and cultural differences.

More than you could possibly imagine

Here, if I used a whistle I would never expect to be found. Ever. We have no rescue like you have in the UK. Ours is planes only up here. No one would be able to look for you on foot. The communtiy where I live has only 3 others within 100 miles. There are no roads. Just forest, lakes and rivers for a thousand miles before you hit Hudson bay to the NE. No one lives there. I hunt traplines in winter (you cannot travel overland here in summer much) and when I trap on my own there is no one else near me or other hunters for hundred or more miles.

Here it depends a lot. If I was out on a hill, and lost or had an accident, I would start blowing a whistle. *BUT* it's not just the whistle that will get me found.

Option a) if I am very lucky, there is someone in ear shot that comes to find me.

Option b) I told a friend I would be back at 1700, at 1800 when they didn't hear from me they call 112 and ask for the police, then tell of an over due hiker. MRT/SAR are called, and they wander to where I told my friend I was going, or my last know position if I texted them my grid ref when I break camp, stop for lunch, and make camp (as I tend to do if I have signal). The MRT/SAR people will start their search following their training, at which point, I hope that one of them hears my whistle and comes to find me. If I fell over and hurt myself at 1500, I may have been doing 6 blasts every minute, and the MRT/SAR team don't hit the hill till 2000, yet, blast, blast, blast, blast, blast, blast, one minute, rinse repeart...

Option c) I had phone signal, I called 112 for help, I give them my grid ref, which is a 100m x 100m box, that I may have misread on the map, and thus they use the whistle to find me.

There are other options. But I'm pretty sure that in the situation you describe, none of them would work. If I was there, I would carry a PLB, and hope that someone can come find me.

I was thinking these were special whistles...... My fault, my written English isn't so good anymore.

They are. Most will be designed to meet the requirements of ISO 12402-8.

Hey Julia, my friend in England told me that there were only lakes in England and that Lochs were in Scotland. But then I think he tells me other strange things I don't hear properly.

Thank you for all being patient, Wa'dji wannumin t'he'o

He is wrong. There is actually only one lake in the lake district. From Wikipedia and more directly QI series E, episode 10, the only lake in the lake district is Bassenthwaite Lake. All the others are meres or waters or tarns. You get into some really fun pedantry at this point, especially if you happen to have a geologist or geograher present as to what is what type of body of water.

Oh, and just incase you thought it was truly insane, just remember, there is no such thing as a fish.

Lochs in Scotland and Ireland (lough is the Irish spelling)
Llynau (the plural of Llyn) in Wales

Tarns up north, and meres just about everywhere else. Water can also signify a lake as in Derwent Water for instance.

See previous statement, it's a damn site more blurry than that.

Largest lake in terms of volume of water is Loch Ness in Scotland, holds more water than all the other lakes in England and Wales combined. It is also very cold and makes for a bracing morning swim if you are so inclined, you might need the whistle to scare off Nessie though

Loch Ness isn't a lake, it's a Loch

Julia

 

[Toddy]

Hello Toddy. Sorry I didn't understand. I didn't look at the mountaineering council of Scotland webssite. Only the Mountain Rescue Association of Scotland website.

Joe ? what website ?
I even tried googling and couldn't find a MRAScotland site.....
I do find more advice about whistles though.
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/clothingandequipment.asp

In the UK, and the Alps come to think on it, it's very practical advice. Not much use on your trap lines by the sounds of it though, not unless there are other people around to hear it, even if 'around' might mean more than a few miles away.

There is one Lake in Scotland though; the Lake of Menteith. Interesting Wikipedia describes it as, "The Lake of Menteith (Scottish Gaelic "Lake of Menteith"), is a loch in Scotland, located on the Carse of Stirling "


M

 

[santaman2000]

Oh we can, pick up any connected phone on the planet, and dial 112. You *WILL* get emergency services. ...

You're only partly right. Yes, it will connect you; but no, most people have no idea that number exists TBH.

 

[santaman2000]

.....How worrying... Perhaps I am spoilt in how well the Uk is served by MRT/SAR......

MRT is probably better than most local/state/provincial law enforcement; their abilities vary widely from one department to another. But compared to the Coast Guard (a professional paramilitary recue service) or the CAP they'd do poorly indeed.

Indeed the posts on this forum and even MRT's website pictures them to be more akin to the Coast Guard's auxiliary.

The CAP is the Air Force's auxiliary.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

You're only partly right. Yes, it will connect you; but no, most people have no idea that number exists TBH.

No, it *WILL* work. There is not a national phone network in the world where this will not be the case. It's standardised, the same way phone numbers are. Whether the emergency service you are connected to is any use, that is another matter, you may just get the front desk of some police station in the sticks. But it will connect you.

Julia

 

[Quixoticgeek]

MRT is probably better than most local/state/provincial law enforcement; their abilities vary widely from one department to another. But compared to the Coast Guard (a professional paramilitary recue service) or the CAP they'd do poorly indeed.

Indeed the posts on this forum and even MRT's website pictures them to be more akin to the Coast Guard's auxiliary.

By what metric are you saying "do poorly indeed" ? Am curious.

Julia

 

[Laurentius]

Loch Ness isn't a lake, it's a Loch

Julia

Hoist by my own petard.

 

[Laurentius]

MRT is probably better than most local/state/provincial law enforcement; their abilities vary widely from one department to another. But compared to the Coast Guard (a professional paramilitary recue service) or the CAP they'd do poorly indeed.

Indeed the posts on this forum and even MRT's website pictures them to be more akin to the Coast Guard's auxiliary.

The CAP is the Air Force's auxiliary.

Mountain rescue teams are volunteers, same as the lifeboats. Volunteers with very sophisticated equipment, but still volunteers who will leave there work at a moments notice when a call goes out, rather like the minutemen of American history.

 

[santaman2000]

No, it *WILL* work. There is not a national phone network in the world where this will not be the case....

Re-read my post. I agreed with you on that point. But it's useless if nobody knows to call that number; and almost nobody here has ever heard of it.

By what metric are you saying "do poorly indeed" ? Am curious.

Julia

No. I believe MRT are very capable; just not in comparison to the professionals.

Mountain rescue teams are volunteers, same as the lifeboats. Volunteers with very sophisticated equipment, but still volunteers who will leave there work at a moments notice when a call goes out, rather like the minutemen of American history.

Thanks. That's exactly what I meant by "auxiliary." By comparison, our Coast Guard is a full time paramilitary force with active duty as well as reserve members and an auxiliary (volunteers)

The CAP is likewise a volunteer force and as stated they're the USAF's auxiliary. They were created to do anti submarine patrols in WWII, but after the war their mission changed and has been entirely SAR ever since.

Both also with very sophisticated equipment.; The Coast Guard obviously has much more sophisticated equipment with a much, much, much bigger budget; equipment such as Dolphin helicopters, Blackhawk helicopters, C-130 Hercules, and Full size Cutters.