I dunno. It's possible, i think. What do you reckon? Are we getting more clever as time goes by? Or more stupid? As a species i mean. And if we're getting more stupid, is it possible to remember how clever we once were?
Survival in the UK
- Thread starter bivouac
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I dunno. It's possible, i think. What do you reckon? Are we getting more clever as time goes by? Or more stupid? As a species i mean. And if we're getting more stupid, is it possible to remember how clever we once were?
That post looks really long now...
Not at all. I really enjoyed it. You should post more often.
Been thinking about it.... for your own safety and very much just in case...
Even though I still dont quite get the reasoning as to why you want to spend a night out sleeping rough. Wouldnt it be better to go out with the kit, and not use it unless you HAVE to .... At least then if things got to bad you could be ok?
Even though I still dont quite get the reasoning as to why you want to spend a night out sleeping rough. Wouldnt it be better to go out with the kit, and not use it unless you HAVE to .... At least then if things got to bad you could be ok?
It all depends where you want to draw the lines in the sand.
Going out naked as the day you were born, in winter or.... dehydrated 5 star hotel just add water
For a quick one nighter it can be fun to do a minimal kit thing but really there is no need to now. Its not even that expensive to buy good functional cheap kit.
Minimal kit soon gets very boring and a bit too much like hard work eventually. Cutting enough firewood just to last a semi cold night without a good sleeping bag is a huge amount of work, not to mention the local resource's you would chew through.
Would you go as far as no metal cooking utilities? Boiling water would be a nightmare task. Making a shelter and maintaining it is also an undertaking.
Dont get me wrong this kind of trip can be a focusing experience but would i like to do it often, no thanks.
So far as pocket knives go i would not be without mine. You can substitute a knife for your teeth when opening packaging, ruin a key to cut tape or boxes, brute force to snap sting etc. I would rather carry a pocket knife and instead use half the effort cutting materials and maybe whittle something nice or a tool to make a job easier.
Going out naked as the day you were born, in winter or.... dehydrated 5 star hotel just add water
For a quick one nighter it can be fun to do a minimal kit thing but really there is no need to now. Its not even that expensive to buy good functional cheap kit.
Minimal kit soon gets very boring and a bit too much like hard work eventually. Cutting enough firewood just to last a semi cold night without a good sleeping bag is a huge amount of work, not to mention the local resource's you would chew through.
Would you go as far as no metal cooking utilities? Boiling water would be a nightmare task. Making a shelter and maintaining it is also an undertaking.
Dont get me wrong this kind of trip can be a focusing experience but would i like to do it often, no thanks.
So far as pocket knives go i would not be without mine. You can substitute a knife for your teeth when opening packaging, ruin a key to cut tape or boxes, brute force to snap sting etc. I would rather carry a pocket knife and instead use half the effort cutting materials and maybe whittle something nice or a tool to make a job easier.
N
Nomad
Guest
I see no cogent reason to suppose that any individual remembers anything other than the things that they themselves experienced. I think the notion that a current era individual can 'remember' the otherwise-lost skill of some ancient ancestor is drivel. I stand to be corrected, of course, but the evidence is going to have to be pretty good.
Enjoy the knifeless, rock-banging nudity. (Clothing is equipment, in case you're wondering what I was driving at earlier, but I'll concede you a loincloth to mitigate the chances of you getting locked up.)
Sometimes you only find out what you're capable of when the chips are down and your back's against the wall. I appreciate your reply. Thanks.
Then what is 'instinct'? Isn't it following a course of action that you have no previous experience of?
Don't be lulled into complacency by Britain's clement weather, hypothermia is subtle and deadly, many die in the UK per year from it and it only makes the papers when it is, say, a film maker doing a social experiment or a hiker with family to miss him, the homeless don't make for headlines. As for drinking untreated water. it can make you very ill very quickly and although this is not a certainty it is advisable to be cautious!
woodspirits
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
just read through bivouac's thread and was a little surprised at the ammount of flak he was getting, so i re-read his OP to see why he had upset so many people.
i couldnt find anything obvious, his 'concern' over the amount of people carrying a knife seemed to touch a nerve here, some people never have a need for a knife in every day life. similarly, i have never had to use the triangular bandage in my fak, so what?? the only questions that he actually asked was 'can i manage overnight in the UK with no kit at all' and 'So - any advice that people would like to give? Any pointers? Anybody do this on a regular basis?'
it wasnt so long ago that someone on here proposed to do exactly the same thing with the exeption that he would forage for tat to improvise. his proposal was encouraged and on he went with advice and friendly banter ringing in his ears. and returned with a few photos to the praise of all, he tried it with no harm done whats so different?...
i was in conversation with a moderator recently who told me that if only people would pause for just a moment to think on what they have typed, did it sound right? could it be misinterpreted? it would save an awfull lot of anguish, ... this is supposed to be a friendly site guys.
i couldnt find anything obvious, his 'concern' over the amount of people carrying a knife seemed to touch a nerve here, some people never have a need for a knife in every day life. similarly, i have never had to use the triangular bandage in my fak, so what?? the only questions that he actually asked was 'can i manage overnight in the UK with no kit at all' and 'So - any advice that people would like to give? Any pointers? Anybody do this on a regular basis?'
it wasnt so long ago that someone on here proposed to do exactly the same thing with the exeption that he would forage for tat to improvise. his proposal was encouraged and on he went with advice and friendly banter ringing in his ears. and returned with a few photos to the praise of all, he tried it with no harm done whats so different?...
i was in conversation with a moderator recently who told me that if only people would pause for just a moment to think on what they have typed, did it sound right? could it be misinterpreted? it would save an awfull lot of anguish, ... this is supposed to be a friendly site guys.
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Perhaps because his use of the word "concern" seemed like wonder that knives aren't banned altogether. Such sentiments tend to pick up momentum.
woodspirits
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
hi santaman, you always seem to catch the tetchy brits about to go to bed after a long night! 
re Mr bivouac yep you could be right, although he did openly change his wording to 'surprised' with endorsements and quite readily admitting to carrying a knife in his pack for a number of years, so not 'anti knife.'? just seemed to me to be getting a rough ride. 
you always seem to catch the tetchy brits about to go to bed after a long night! re Mr bivouac yep you could be right, although he did openly change his wording to 'surprised' with endorsements and quite readily admitting to carrying a knife in his pack for a number of years, so not 'anti knife.'? just seemed to me to be getting a rough ride. This is the internet mate, everything is misinterpreted
but it seemed to me it was a pretty poorly worded OP from the start - I'm still not sure what he wanted in the first place.
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Someone mentioned snapping string which I find difficult but my Father was a pre-war wharehouseman and paper worker and could snap the toughest string in an instant. I never learnt the trick but it was impressive. String, penknife and money for the phone (when we got one) was what I remember as being every little boys outdoors kit. This and scrumped apples in season (sorry Mods) could keep us amused for the day.
My uncles when little sometimes took even less and would go into a police station sometimes as being "lost" in order to be revived with bread and butter and mugs of cocoa. Same uncles when older would literally sleep under hedges when doing a mammoth cycle ride to visit girlfriends, eg London to Westward Ho!
My uncles when little sometimes took even less and would go into a police station sometimes as being "lost" in order to be revived with bread and butter and mugs of cocoa. Same uncles when older would literally sleep under hedges when doing a mammoth cycle ride to visit girlfriends, eg London to Westward Ho!
Any fool can be uncomfortable either by carrying a a knife or by not carrying a knife - nah - it does not quite have the same ring as the original quotation! nor does it make as much sense to me
As to species memory - have a look at Jung's theory of the Primal Mind.
As to dependence on tools and technology - man has been dependant on them since the first hominid broke a stone to make the first tool (which was the first knife by the way) and learned how to manipulate his environment.
Definitely agree with Woodspirit here. The knife comment does seem to be creating a mist of rage that is obscuring the real intention of the post which was 'how far can I go with regards to shedding unnecesary kit but still spend the whole night outdoors?'
Boatman - my childhood was filled with similar pre-war tales courtesy of my Nan. Very long, care free walks and cycle rides through several counties to visit friends and relations that most people would refer to as an endurance race nowadays. Camping trips with gear that should've been in a museum... Most definitely inspired me to do what I do now and I could sit here now and reel off any number of similar accounts from my own childhood/young adult adventures, attempting to emulate the oldies. However, if I take off the rose tinted specs I remember that the minimalist nights out were often at the height of summer and any that weren't were sleepless, shivering filled episodes. Something to look back on and say 'blimey - I was lucky to get through that in one piece' but not really to be recommended as a general advice to those looking to sleep outdoors with less kit. 'Plan for the worst, hope for the best' will ensure that everyone comes home safely.
Having said that, I remember one long night when myself and a friend set off to walk the twenty or so miles across the South Downs to where we knew a couple of girls we fancied were camping as part of a DoE award scheme. It was getting dark when we set off and it rained cats and dogs all the way there as we trudged through the night. We didn't have a map but we knew roughly where the village was so we skirted the roads and country lanes using the road signs to keep us on track. We also knew the name of the farm where they were staying but even so, couldn't find it when we eventually arrived at the village (I found out after that it was just beyond the village boundary!). Disappointed, we curled up in a bus shelter to try and get some sleep until people started getting up for work (it was already getting light so probably only had an hour of snooze). We were wearing army poncho's but our clothes were pretty damp. I think that without shared bodywarmth we would've got pretty cold. We were also younger and fitter which counts for a hell of a lot when planning these hare-brained schemes. My little boy runs round in a vest all day long without looking the slightest bit cold while I sit there in a great big woolly pully feeling chilly. We're all calorie burning furnaces when we're younger. When your metabolism slows down and calories seem to be being stored 'for a rainy day' rather than furiously keeping the youthful engines chugging away, I think we're less able to cope with such crazy antics so have to plan accordingly.
Anyway, we walked back to the nearest village with a train station and caught the train back home again for a slap up feed. This is the other important consideration...we had somewhere warm to go and get dry...and food to re-fill the energy tanks. The minimalist camper (especially those going further afield) needs to make allowances for several days out of doors. One cold, possibly wet night might be do-able but if your personal situation can't be improved upon before the following night then that's when the human body might've been pushed beyond it's limits and you find yourself in trouble. Just a few key items of kit can ensure this doesn't happen so it's important to know what your absolute bare minimum is, kit-wise to ensure your own safety and comfort.
Anyhoo - off up the woods now!
Joe
Boatman - my childhood was filled with similar pre-war tales courtesy of my Nan. Very long, care free walks and cycle rides through several counties to visit friends and relations that most people would refer to as an endurance race nowadays. Camping trips with gear that should've been in a museum... Most definitely inspired me to do what I do now and I could sit here now and reel off any number of similar accounts from my own childhood/young adult adventures, attempting to emulate the oldies. However, if I take off the rose tinted specs I remember that the minimalist nights out were often at the height of summer and any that weren't were sleepless, shivering filled episodes. Something to look back on and say 'blimey - I was lucky to get through that in one piece' but not really to be recommended as a general advice to those looking to sleep outdoors with less kit. 'Plan for the worst, hope for the best' will ensure that everyone comes home safely.
Having said that, I remember one long night when myself and a friend set off to walk the twenty or so miles across the South Downs to where we knew a couple of girls we fancied were camping as part of a DoE award scheme. It was getting dark when we set off and it rained cats and dogs all the way there as we trudged through the night. We didn't have a map but we knew roughly where the village was so we skirted the roads and country lanes using the road signs to keep us on track. We also knew the name of the farm where they were staying but even so, couldn't find it when we eventually arrived at the village (I found out after that it was just beyond the village boundary!). Disappointed, we curled up in a bus shelter to try and get some sleep until people started getting up for work (it was already getting light so probably only had an hour of snooze). We were wearing army poncho's but our clothes were pretty damp. I think that without shared bodywarmth we would've got pretty cold. We were also younger and fitter which counts for a hell of a lot when planning these hare-brained schemes. My little boy runs round in a vest all day long without looking the slightest bit cold while I sit there in a great big woolly pully feeling chilly. We're all calorie burning furnaces when we're younger. When your metabolism slows down and calories seem to be being stored 'for a rainy day' rather than furiously keeping the youthful engines chugging away, I think we're less able to cope with such crazy antics so have to plan accordingly.
Anyway, we walked back to the nearest village with a train station and caught the train back home again for a slap up feed. This is the other important consideration...we had somewhere warm to go and get dry...and food to re-fill the energy tanks. The minimalist camper (especially those going further afield) needs to make allowances for several days out of doors. One cold, possibly wet night might be do-able but if your personal situation can't be improved upon before the following night then that's when the human body might've been pushed beyond it's limits and you find yourself in trouble. Just a few key items of kit can ensure this doesn't happen so it's important to know what your absolute bare minimum is, kit-wise to ensure your own safety and comfort.
Anyhoo - off up the woods now!
Joe
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hi santaman,
Fortunately i'm fairly thickskinned and sustained no personal injury, not even a bruised ego. I've been mooching about this website for a couple of years posting here and there and for the most part received a warm and friendly welcome. But some things inflame the passions with folks hereabouts and i should have known to steer clear of this one but it looks my big feet and big mouth (and a couple of pints of Old Speckled Hen) have got me into trouble again. I apologise unreservedly for stepping on people's feet.
Will i go through with it and come back and tell everyone what a wonderful time i had? Probably not. The watchwords seem to be comfort and safety and being mindful of both i shall probably stick to pub walks where the only kit you carry is a small piece of plastic in the shape of a credit card. Why...i might even join the Ramblers!
Cheers everyone.
I realy don't see the inflamed passions? People just answered in the style you posted.
Of course you can go out without a knife, in the same way you can go out without a torch, lighter, firstaid kit, water or a bit of food. If you found yourself in a 'survival' situation, you'd have less options and possibly more dificulties depending on what items you didn't have, however to be honest pretty much anywhere in the UK your biggest 'survival' tool will be a mobile phone.
If a knife hadn't been mentioned in your original post I doubt anyone else would have brought it to the discussion...
to be honest you got the most important bit oif advice in post #2
- keeping warm and dry is the most important thing for short term survival
Of course you can go out without a knife, in the same way you can go out without a torch, lighter, firstaid kit, water or a bit of food. If you found yourself in a 'survival' situation, you'd have less options and possibly more dificulties depending on what items you didn't have, however to be honest pretty much anywhere in the UK your biggest 'survival' tool will be a mobile phone.
If a knife hadn't been mentioned in your original post I doubt anyone else would have brought it to the discussion...
to be honest you got the most important bit oif advice in post #2
- keeping warm and dry is the most important thing for short term survival
Some help.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353292/pg1?ref=patrick.net
I carry a LM Wave multitool that gets used half a doz times a day, in fact I seriously cannot remember a day I did not use it for something.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353292/pg1?ref=patrick.net
I carry a LM Wave multitool that gets used half a doz times a day, in fact I seriously cannot remember a day I did not use it for something.
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Any fool can be uncomfortable either by carrying a a knife or by not carrying a knife - nah - it does not quite have the same ring as the original quotation! nor does it make as much sense to me
As to species memory - have a look at Jung's theory of the Primal Mind.
As to dependence on tools and technology - man has been dependant on them since the first hominid broke a stone to make the first tool (which was the first knife by the way) and learned how to manipulate his environment.
John, there is an article I Am desperately trying to find that points towards hand tools having a massive influence on how the modern wrists and hands evolved. Think it was on newscientist, will keep looking.
woodspirits
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
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