Rip My Canoe Kit apart

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dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
Way off topic...
The point of this thread was to analyse this man's kit and compare it to our needs etc.

Sure, when you know your environment so well you need less kit and due to culture differences we tend to carry more , such as pfd's and other stuff.
The differences in kit are just interesting and should be just that!
No point of going into the origin of the peoples , their approach or the part of the world they come from. Are they , are they not is just irrelevant.

The reason they prefer to be called first nations is because they were already there , thriving, when the white man arrived.

The white man destroyed their way of life and killed many.
Additionally, with great disregard, the new arrivals, pushed them out of their land , killed and tricked , lied and stole their way into dominance .

These were very spiritual people , totally connected and dependent on the natural environment around them .
They didn't speak with "forked tongues" like the white man , and they had a great respect and spiritual connection to all living and non living things.
Because the Great Spirit created it all for a reason , in their beliefs.

So let's not pick peanuts out of poop , and let's just focus on the subject at hand, rather than discuss if the term first nations is correct or not....

Wow... so you read what is being discussed, didn't understand it and decided to give a history lesson that could read equally for the ancient Britons, the Mayans, the Gauls or the Indians of India. That naughty white man has gotten about a bit throughout history eh?

The whole point of discussing the cultural divide explains why Joe has certain items in his kit, the lack of a FAK is a prime example... but when we got onto the discussion of pfds, Joe said (and I'm paraphrasing) that first nation people do not use them for cultural reasons. Quite why we got into a natter about humanoid species is another matter, but from my perspective understanding exactly what Joe means by first nation might make it easier to understand why no pfd.

Ask Joe why no FAK, he gives a logical answer... his culture practises and passes sufficient knowledge of plants and landscape that he doesn't need a FAK. Effectively his environment and knowledge is his FAK. That makes oodles of sense... why carry weight if you can get what you need around you... so its much like the discussion we had about carrying water when you're out and about in the woods.

Pfd wise, its been established pretty quickly that Joe and his people aren't against technology and do use it when it is advantageous... and as Joe has pointed out, we have the option of pfds for fishermen over here, but they don't tend to use them.

Thats where we're upto... the whole first nation thing was a side line more to help Joe understand that I wasn't dismissing him or his people... simply that when Joe says first nation, it didn't really mean anything to me... but after a discussion with a mate (who incidentally lives in the west of Canada) he explained the cultural divide and how our histories have divided our opinions. It fascinating stuff... apologies if its disturbed people to digress. Thought it was worthwhile so Joe didn't believe the forum was full of dumb white men... rather puzzled and inquisitive white men. :D
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
2,294
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
But why should there be a need for an buyoncy aid in a river, even a wide one?
I have done a bit if canoeing ( owned a wonderful, quick Grumman and after it got stolen a piece of $hit Coleman) on lakes and riverd, and never used anything.
Why?
You are usually an easy swim distance away from shore. If crossing a lake, you choose to do so only in fair weather, if ugly you hug shore.
You do not go through rapids. Why would you risk damaging your canoe?

It is great fun canooeing down river. I recommend Forum members to go to Sweden and go down Dala älven, experience some true Nature, good fishing and you can practice some Bush craft!
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
12
Cheshire
You are usually an easy swim distance away from shore.

Which is the whole point of what Joe mentioned earlier... he said (and again, paraphrasing) his people can't swim.

If you can't swim, nothing is within easy swim distance... hence the whole reason for the discussion :rolleyes:
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
2,294
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Dewi, they can not swim bit they can float.
If they do not have packed some gear so it floats, the canoe will float. The paddle will float too.

We need Joe to tell us!
 

Bushcraft Yukon

Tenderfoot
Nov 8, 2015
59
0
Canada
Anyone who believes they can easily swim to shore in a cold northern river or lake doesn't know what they are talking about! For starters you could look up "cold water boot camp" on youtube. Prof. Giesbrecht, a Canadian thermo-physiologist does an educational program on cold water immersion and hypothermia. Great program!

I am with Search & Rescue in Canada's Yukon Territory and every year we pull out bodies from those rivers and lakes! Usually people without pfd's...
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,389
57
Wiltshire
Wow... so you read what is being discussed, didn't understand it and decided to give a history lesson that could read equally for the ancient Britons, the Mayans, the Gauls or the Indians of India. That naughty white man has gotten about a bit throughout history eh?

The whole point of discussing the cultural divide explains why Joe has certain items in his kit, the lack of a FAK is a prime example... but when we got onto the discussion of pfds, Joe said (and I'm paraphrasing) that first nation people do not use them for cultural reasons. Quite why we got into a natter about humanoid species is another matter, but from my perspective understanding exactly what Joe means by first nation might make it easier to understand why no pfd.

Ask Joe why no FAK, he gives a logical answer... his culture practises and passes sufficient knowledge of plants and landscape that he doesn't need a FAK. Effectively his environment and knowledge is his FAK. That makes oodles of sense... why carry weight if you can get what you need around you... so its much like the discussion we had about carrying water when you're out and about in the woods.

Pfd wise, its been established pretty quickly that Joe and his people aren't against technology and do use it when it is advantageous... and as Joe has pointed out, we have the option of pfds for fishermen over here, but they don't tend to use them.

Thats where we're upto... the whole first nation thing was a side line more to help Joe understand that I wasn't dismissing him or his people... simply that when Joe says first nation, it didn't really mean anything to me... but after a discussion with a mate (who incidentally lives in the west of Canada) he explained the cultural divide and how our histories have divided our opinions. It fascinating stuff... apologies if its disturbed people to digress. Thought it was worthwhile so Joe didn't believe the forum was full of dumb white men... rather puzzled and inquisitive white men. :D
No history lesson , just a brief statement on a sad subject.
Yes , we ( the white man) have a poor track record on the invade , occupy , indoctrinate business...
But then again so did Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun.

I mostly agree with all your factual comments Dewi .
My comment was, not necessarily aimed at you or your argument, I just thought it was all going off course by questioning demographics and origins , rather than discussing the kit.
 
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I didn't think folk would be really interested in my canoeing stuff for such a journey.

1. 1st Nations? i never use it. Were just the people = Dene in Cree, sometimes Deneza if we want to emphasise it.

I don't mind what you call me as an indian as long as its not rude or insulting. :)

2. By using cultural not using lifejackets all I meant was we do not wear them and have never used them. Nor do other native/tribal groups in other parts of the world I have heard about. Inuit would be an example.

3. We generally do not tie stuff in our canoes as capsizing is something you rarely see apart from when kids are messing in summer on warm rivers long ways south. Our canoes are not for pleasure in the way folk using them for recreation do. If we did tie stuff in and lost a canoe we'd also loose all our equipment as swamped canoe is harder and slower to retrieve and to empty if stuff is tied in. Mostly our rivers for long travel are much bigger and have much more water in than anything I saw in the UK In many places where we do portage even if you did use a life jacket you would not be alive at the bottom :(

When I did more guiding for outfitters it was always expected that i asked the customers to wear jackets. It might not get me more work if customers kept drowning ;-) But I thank you for your real concerns.

So folk I don't know why but we just never needed them. Well at least up here. And if you listen to the guy in the film he says he's not heard of any Dene drowning in Quebec province.


Oh, and I don't think all white folk are dumb. Some i met have some interesting habits and do things differently than us but customs are different.

I am happy to answer your questions. Apart from in the UK no one here is really interested to ask us about our life.

https://www.nfb.ca/film/cree_hunters/download/ For our way of live maybe soon gone. This is maybe another way of explaining my answers and your questions if you have not seen the film before.
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,389
57
Wiltshire
....

You all may enjoy this film by the National Film Board of Canada 'Cree hunters of the Mistassini'.

12 minutes in you'll see canoeing
14. the Axes we mostly use
16. minutes in canoeing in rapids
30 minutes in Beaver hunting.

Its old and less people live this way nowadays.

https://www.nfb.ca/film/cree_hunters/download/

I was in my 20's when I think this film was made.


Kwey Kwey Joe!

Thank you for posting the film link, is very interesting .
I now feel like Ive been on a hunting trip with the Ayisiniwok too ... 😁


Meegwetch
 
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Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
2,294
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Joe, Beaver is one of the meats I have not tried. Is it tasty? Similar to any other meat?
Is it true that the tail meat is the best part?

I have now an Ox Neck Goulash on the go for tonights supper! Started it yesterday, Goulash, as all casseroles with meat, is better the next day.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,665
McBride, BC
I have tried it twice (at game dinners). Both times, a pungent sweetness that I, personally, don't care for.
Llama and ostrich I can do without, as well. Cougar & Lynx, better than expected.
 

sunndog

Full Member
May 23, 2014
3,561
477
derbyshire
Betcha joe dint pay $7500 for his canvas/cedar canoe :D

How tough are those canvas canoes, i mean like do you have to make sure to only stand on the wooden spars and stuff?


still watching that video btw joe. just got to the lodge building part.....very interesting, thanks for posting
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
Betcha joe dint pay $7500 for his canvas/cedar canoe :D

How tough are those canvas canoes, i mean like do you have to make sure to only stand on the wooden spars and stuff?


still watching that video btw joe. just got to the lodge building part.....very interesting, thanks for posting
They are really a wooden boat with a canvas coating - so as tough as the the wood is thick.
 

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
23
Europe
Well lets see if I can answer some of your comments.

1. FAK If that means 1st aid then we don't bother generally. If we need things for cuts we can use what the forest provides. We have a root we mash up = I don't know English name which we use to stop bleeding. But we rarely get cut anyhow and only small nicks. For us we live here and the surroundings are a part of our lives. Just like the cities and towns are like home to you. I guess you guys don't carry a 1st aid for going in the towns and cities or if you go for a short walk in the fields and woods? Same here.

That's a nice idea upto a point. On a large enough wound, having a couple of large dressings you could apply are going to speed things up and increase chance of survival. That said, with no means of communicating with the outside world, a big enough injury will be fatal, where as others who can call in help, might survive...

2.we might carry rope on some trips but not on rivers where we use poles for going up swifts against the currents. Our shelters are made from poles cut from the forest a bit like tipi, covered with canvas and poles are used to hold it down. Same we we sometimes have used bark for shelter. No nails in old times so all held down by poles on outside. But if we need we can always use spruce root - plenty up here.,

I figured that would be your answer.

3. My axe weights 5lb pounds. Good for everything, cutting small brush and downing lumber if needed. Less effort is needed than using a smaller axe

You mention the axe, and you mention making a bow saw, but you don't list a saw blade?

7. There are many 1st nations people who cannot swim because they were brought up above the tree line where the rivers never get warm enough to swim. PFDs are not part of our custom in the same way fishing people in England don't wear PFDs when they go out to sea in fishing boats or when you catch the ferry yet I know fishing boats sink as do ferries with lots of deaths. Its different for you guys who canoe - you do it for fun I guess and falling in is part of how you learn and have fun. Staying in the canoe is how we learn and how we like our paddling!

Yet, when we get on that ferry, there is a life jacket for every single person on that boat. They don't make you wander round with one on at all times, but if you hear 6 loud bursts on the ships horn, followed by a long blast, with the announcement "General alarm", you are instructed to move to a muster point where a member of staff hands you out a life jacket. Since the titanic, there is also a requirement to have enough life rafts and life boats for everyone on board too, so if the ferry starts to sink, you can get get on a life raft or a life boat. It's the same as when you get on an airliner, they tell you about your life jacket under your seat.

Modern fishermen, at least in the UK, tend to wear a life vest that auto inflates if they fall in. It took a while to kick in, but people have realised there's nothing macho in dying.

I have canoed and kayaked without a PFD, and it depends on the conditions as to whether I will wear one or not. If the conditions are lumpy, I will be wearing one tho. It may be enough to keep your head above the water while the cold shock kicks in, giving you vital seconds to get your self together and make for safety.

Most of our rivers are far bigger than anything in England I saw. Throw lines cannot be thrown into the middle of our rivers as they are too wide and even guided trips don't always carry these things. You'd be too long getting to the bank anyhow in a bad rapid and our rivers you can't walk on the banks as there is too much brush & fallen timber - that is why our rivers are our highways.

How big are your rivers? We have rivers that are several miles wide in places. Not everything here is tiny.

Would you consider a throw line if it was 4 of you in 2 canoes? Where rescue is not from the bank, but from the river?

'no indian ever died on a portage'. This is old saying. We don't canoe in rapids we can't paddle. We walk around them carrying canoe & luggage - this is portage, I think a French word.

8. Dewi =- We don't reject modern stuff. We use it. But only what we want and need. I've used and made bows and arrows and stuff when i was younger but I use a rifle and shotgun for getting food. Its easier and needs less skill!!! We didn't use skins for shelter. Only bark in old times and now for unplanned stays.

You may want to check your tone then, as that is not the way it comes across in your previous posts.

I guess you enjoy going out and camping. But you live in a house?? Same thing maybe but other way around.

I know you guys like making wooden spoons and using other old stuff. You like to light fires by old methods - But you buy modern kit, jackets, waterproof clothing expensive boots, knives & axes that we would not use. Are we wrong to choose what we like? Are you wrong to choose what you like?.

Ultimately if you are happy with your kit, that's what is important. It is clear you have a higher level of knowledge of the area than any of us, which allows you to make use of the forest more than we can.

I'm sorry you dismiss us. In the past we've been called many wrong names, but now we are recognised as the 1st people who set foot in our land and that is why I'm a 1st nation canadian.

Any way kit. I'll look for video of Cree folk canoeing I've seen - maybe you'd enjoy it and I'll see if I can get one of the kids to put it on here to look at.

It's your higher level of training that allows you to take less. The thing is your culture has allowed you an education many of us can only dream of. As such it is not really fair of you to mock the white man for bringing too much stuff with them, it's not our fault we don't have your education. Same as I wouldn't mock you for not knowing how to program a raspberry pi in Java...

J
 
Joe, Beaver is one of the meats I have not tried. Is it tasty? Similar to any other meat?
Is it true that the tail meat is the best part?

I have now an Ox Neck Goulash on the go for tonights supper! Started it yesterday, Goulash, as all casseroles with meat, is better the next day.

Tail is favourite for many of us but I can't think what to compare them with for taste more meat taste than say Ostrich I'd guess :)

Cougar we don't get here, and Lynx occurs in the southern parts of our land. But we don't eat him.
 
Joe, Beaver is one of the meats I have not tried. Is it tasty? Similar to any other meat?
Is it true that the tail meat is the best part?

I have now an Ox Neck Goulash on the go for tonights supper! Started it yesterday, Goulash, as all casseroles with meat, is better the next day.

Tail is favourite for many of us but I can't think what to compare them with for taste more meat taste than say Ostrich I'd guess :)

Cougar we don't get here, and Lynx occurs in the southern parts of our land. But we don't eat him.
 
Betcha joe dint pay $7500 for his canvas/cedar canoe :D

How tough are those canvas canoes, i mean like do you have to make sure to only stand on the wooden spars and stuff?


still watching that video btw joe. just got to the lodge building part.....very interesting, thanks for posting

Most HBC stuff is expensive. None of us would buy it.

Cedar canvas canoes are mostly replaced by fibreglass, by plastic canoes but these are heavier and harder to repair. MY canoe I made myself. Except for the canvas all the wood we get from the forest

I'm glad you like the video.
 
J

Maybe my English isn't my 1st language and maybe I'm not as good as expressing myself like you but I can say that I have had no intention of mocking anyone regardless of what their equipment. All I hope i've said is that the people i see on the norther rivers carry more equipment than us much of which we have no need for. So I also don't understand your comment regarding my tone. But no bother I've explained.

2. Throw lines we don't use or have. We do have rope when we need to rope a canoe up or down river. When I've guided europeans and canadians if they capsize it is mostly in rapids. The rivers I've been on guiding have very long sections of rapids where you could not use throw line. No where to stop, too many snags/trees/boulders. But I am aware that they are common on smaller rivers amongst none Dene recreational paddlers. I've seen them used on the Petawawa which is small river.

3. I did not know you had big rivers 7 miles wide thats bigger than most of ours. where is such a river? (I'll get one of our volunteers to find me a video of a river up here and she can put it on line.) maybe that is better than I can explain.

4. I have difficulty explaining about 1st aid. To us there is nothing much we'd need one for. Small cuts and the like are we normally get. I guess if someone broke a leg we'd have to bring him out of the bush. I agree with your point that a big injury would be fatal. But I guess people die also in England with accidents. I've seen no fatal accidents here aside from a builder working on a roof of a office building.

5. To me a bush/bow saw already has a saw blade.

Joe

I hope this is the right tone.
 

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