Modern bushcraft !?!

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johnboe522

Silver Trader
Feb 20, 2012
353
0
lulworth
Nosi Life? Is that craghoppers? Bear Grylls wears them so they must be really good. Are they as hard wearing as the rest of the craghoppers range? I'm not sure why any one would wear anything else, as reading this thread it seems modern fabrics are far better in many ways :) based on this thread of course :)
Can't work out if you joking or not!?! But if not I think they are great shirts never had a problem with them to be honest.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
4,241
538
Lancashire
Jaffa cakes? Better or worse than jammie dodgers?

Are chocolate biscuits dangerous near fires... They end up with holes in them. Much better with traditional Scottish shortcake biscuits.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
4,241
538
Lancashire
Jaffa cakes? Better or worse than jammie dodgers?

Are chocolate biscuits dangerous near fires... They end up with holes in them. Much better with traditional Scottish shortcake biscuits. They still much better when wet with coffee, can cope with much more coffee than modern biscuits.
 

rg598

Native
Which 'random blogger' would that be, your pushing a few buttons so can you narrow it down and say who you mean please.
He is referring to me rik, the random blogger who actually bothered to gather data on the subject, and dared to ask that our Bumbler friend offer some evidence to back up his strong assertions. As a counter to my inquiry about evidence, studies, or data, Mr. Bumbler decided that his assertion that wool keeps you warm when wet is in fact better supported not by data, but by demeaning my experiments and my experience, and with a misguided, overly simplistic and incomplete explanation of the physics involved. In the dozen or so posts he has made since his "English ran out", he has failed to offer a single shred of evidence to support his factual assertion about the properties of wool. Apparently my request for such evidence is upsetting to him and somehow makes me a lesser man in his eyes, and opens me to condescension and mockery.

As far as the general discussion, I have no issue with people making assertions of their personal experiences. There is no issue with someone stating that they like the way wool fees even when it is wet, or that they got wet on a particular trip but still stayed warm, just like there is nothing wrong with another person stating that they were cold when their wool clothing got wet. Those are personal experiences and there is no right or wrong answer there. However, when we make factual assertions such as "wool keeps you warm when wet", or "wool retains X amount of its insulation when wet", etc. I believe we have moved beyond the scope of personal experience or preference into the realm of factually verifiable data. At that point I think we have an obligation to look at the actual evidence and data that allegedly supports these factual assertions rather than just repeating it on the internet without any check.

If the data in fact shows that wool keeps you warm when wet, that is great. I have a full wool backpacking outfit that I've used for years and it's ready to go. I also look damn good in it, so I would love for that to be true. I just don't think it benefits any of us, or the furtherance of knowledge to make factual assertions that are not supported by the evidence. If anyone has any studies that have looked at the heat retention rates of dry vs. wet wool, and compared to to other fabrics like fleece, Primaloft, etc, then I think we would all love to read them and learn from them.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
4,241
538
Lancashire
Seriously, stop arguing, go outside and take a big breath of fresh air. That is what your gear gets you into, fresh air and not stuck behind your PC, laptop, tablket , smart TV or smartphone. If you're not out with your phone/tablet if course.

Now let's not get into Nokia, android, iPhone arguments neither.


Android though for sure! ;)
 

CACTUS ELF

Need to contact Admin...
Feb 16, 2012
108
0
Cheshire
Can't work out if you joking or not!?! But if not I think they are great shirts never had a problem with them to be honest.
i've had a couple of pairs of the standard walking trousers and they've been great and the mrs had a winter coat which also was great except for the lower part of the zip opening up from time to time but its a few yrs old and brought in a sale so not to worried about that. They do have good sales on from time to time. However, i've never had a shirt so maybe craghoppers wil get a sale. Thanks :)
 

dump of the stig

New Member
Sep 8, 2012
239
0
west sussex
Oh dear! I better not make any comments anglers I've met on my Kayak trips...

They were all nice people who offered us cups of tea as we passed by!! ;)
on the whole we are a friendly bunch, unless you paddle a Kayak through the swim
we have spent all morning baiting up or there is a match in full swing LOL then your in bandit country :)
I don't moan tho, 1 im a yakker too (in fact you probably would get asked if you want a brew)
and 2 I don't fish matches, im a speci hunter and id just move off somewhere else, unless its a big lake not a river
and you have some pr**k that just wants to be disrespectful by screwing around infront of you
when they have the whole lake too play in. The majority of us are cool unless the above stated outrages
occur lol.
 
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dump of the stig

New Member
Sep 8, 2012
239
0
west sussex
And yet so many snorkelers wear cotton (denem blue jeans) while snorkeling in cold water.
right please I don't want this too go right off, this is only personal experience, and I don't want us to go off because
of this but, where on earth have you seen snorkelers use jeans as some sort of advantageous material for snorkelling?
im a keen snorkeller and diver, jeans are the last thing you want, they are heavy in water and wont dry I cant see
a good reason for this apart from maybe if you where over a reef you didn't want to get scratched up and you
have absolutely no alternative? I could be wrong but could you tell me something about this?

Also somebody mentioned using them in the tropics as protection from snakes?
this is laughable, I spent years in SE Asia working on a wildlife rescue centre (4 years as wildlife worker and jungle guid)
No they will do nothing against a snake.
wearing them in the jungle is ridiculous, stinking hot and sweaty when dry, chaffing heavy and uncomfortable
in or after a down poor, you will never get them dry in that humid environment. light cycling shorts with baggy combats over the top
is the way forward for me.
Again personal opinion, based on personal experience if im wrong could somebody enlighten me?
Its a big world full of lots of people with lots of different views (something that seems to have been forgotten in this thread)
so I wont take anything personaly and get angry and abusive, (well unless somebody has the bare face cheek too disagree LOL :-D)
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,406
883
63
Florida
right please I don't want this too go right off, this is only personal experience, and I don't want us to go off because
of this but, where on earth have you seen snorkelers use jeans as some sort of advantageous material for snorkelling?
Mostly in the Keys. But also up and down both coasts (including the PNW) And off the coast of Greece back in 1980.

None of them ever claimed it was better than a proper wet suit (quite the opposite) BUT! It does work to some degree. And few (if any) snorkelers can afford a wet suit; if they have that amount to spend they usually take up SCUBA instead.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,406
883
63
Florida
.....Also somebody mentioned using them in the tropics as protection from snakes?
this is laughable, I spent years in SE Asia working on a wildlife rescue centre (4 years as wildlife worker and jungle guid)
No they will do nothing against a snake.
wearing them in the jungle is ridiculous, stinking hot and sweaty when dry, chaffing heavy and uncomfortable
in or after a down poor, you will never get them dry in that humid environment....
No they're not really any protection from snakes, that's true.

However they're just fine in the tropics (I've worn them in Panama a great deal) As to them being "stinking, hot, sweaty when dry" I never found that to be true. Not in the tropics. Nor in the desert (Saudi nor the Mohave) As for "never get them dry in that humid environment" Well, again, not generally my experience from humidity alone. However I usually get wet from wading/fording deep streams and/or getting in and out of the canoe/boat (whether from neccessity or just because that's half the reason for the trip) Nothing is ever dry when your in the everglades are a tropical swamp. It's the nature of the beast. Not denim, Not wool. And not any synthetic. Woopy-do; I'm gonna be wet. So what? Only the "dudes" and women give a rat's butt about being wet in the swamps.
 

Bumbler

New Member
Feb 22, 2013
256
0
Norway
www.bushcraft.no
He is referring to me rik, the random blogger who actually bothered to gather data on the subject, and dared to ask that our Bumbler friend offer some evidence to back up his strong assertions. As a counter to my inquiry about evidence, studies, or data, Mr. Bumbler decided that his assertion that wool keeps you warm when wet is in fact better supported not by data, but by demeaning my experiments and my experience, and with a misguided, overly simplistic and incomplete explanation of the physics involved. In the dozen or so posts he has made since his "English ran out", he has failed to offer a single shred of evidence to support his factual assertion about the properties of wool. Apparently my request for such evidence is upsetting to him and somehow makes me a lesser man in his eyes, and opens me to condescension and mockery.

As far as the general discussion, I have no issue with people making assertions of their personal experiences. There is no issue with someone stating that they like the way wool fees even when it is wet, or that they got wet on a particular trip but still stayed warm, just like there is nothing wrong with another person stating that they were cold when their wool clothing got wet. Those are personal experiences and there is no right or wrong answer there. However, when we make factual assertions such as "wool keeps you warm when wet", or "wool retains X amount of its insulation when wet", etc. I believe we have moved beyond the scope of personal experience or preference into the realm of factually verifiable data. At that point I think we have an obligation to look at the actual evidence and data that allegedly supports these factual assertions rather than just repeating it on the internet without any check.

If the data in fact shows that wool keeps you warm when wet, that is great. I have a full wool backpacking outfit that I've used for years and it's ready to go. I also look damn good in it, so I would love for that to be true. I just don't think it benefits any of us, or the furtherance of knowledge to make factual assertions that are not supported by the evidence. If anyone has any studies that have looked at the heat retention rates of dry vs. wet wool, and compared to to other fabrics like fleece, Primaloft, etc, then I think we would all love to read them and learn from them.
I see you still have not understood a thing that I have told you....well, some people have a hard time understanding the simplest of information. But I suggest you climb of your high horse before you fall off and learn the basics of how insulation works, then you may climb back on, or not. I don't really care.

I suggest you start here.

http://www.thinkinsulation.co.uk/insulation/how-insulation-works/#axzz2TQuBWXm4

When you have understood this, we can talk

Until then, debating this with you is a waste of time. Life is simply to short.
 
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Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
22,036
631
49
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
This is one of those prime examples of things getting personal and taking a thread capable of being a good thread into the realms of bickering, pride, one-upmanship (may have made up how that's spelt) and worst of all turning it into a personal battle making it pointless for everyone else.

We hate having to shut threads down but this is a prime example of why we do. Please bring this thread back on track, leave the personal issues alone and allow everyone else to enjoy it.
 

johnboe522

Silver Trader
Feb 20, 2012
353
0
lulworth
I have been asked to write an article on modern kit and equipment and its uses in bushcraft in 2013.

I was just wondering what people's thoughts are, what do you guys think on the issue, I enjoy modern kit I must confess to being a bit of a jack door when it come to shinny kit.

But I am fascinated with the more traditional methods and the skills used, but I much prefer wearing gortex and full strech fabrics than wax jackets and wool.

Can the two mix or is there a hard core bushcrafters scene!
Cheers Tony,

Above is the OP, just to refresh
 

leon-1

Mod
Mod
Difficult one to answer really JB.

There are those who try to use wholly traditional materials and there are some who use wholly modern modern materials. I think most of us use a bit of both in one way shape or form.

I teach bushcraft and survival and can see benefits to both. I also use both natural and modern materials almost interchangeably.

Sleeping systems being just one thing which can be greatly controversial. Most modern sleeping systems are filled with some form of man made fibre and as such work reasonably well even when wet, but warmth to weight and size when packed tend to run in favour of natural materials like down. Having said that though invariably the down is encased in a poly fibre in most cases like Pertex and the same for down jackets. In this case there is almost a perfect fusion / symbiosis of new and old.

Then if we look at tapaulin's most of us wouldn't dream of carrying a tarp made from natural fibre for long distances packed in the top of our bergans, the weight especially after one wetting out would be somewhat excessive and then we have the size to consider.

I was out in the rain and the wind a couple of days ago, my base layer was a merino wool top, then a cotton t-shirt, then a polartec fleece and finally an aqau dry jacket. Layers being used to good effect. I also had a Ventile smock with me which I tend to use around the fire. Later in the year I will use Ventile a lot more having single layer and double layer jackets, but it's still a trade off on water resistance, smell, noise amongst other factors.

Many of us wear leather boots that have a lining of sympatex or even gore-tex. Modern and old can work together very well, but there is normally some form of compromise like smell (you only need to look at the original Karrimor KSb's to prove that).

Old and new doesn't just apply to clothing and footwear it can also apply to our shelters, sleeping systems, rucksacks / bergans, water bottles and cutlery we use. I doubt very much if there are too many people in the western world out there wearing all natural fibres, sleeping in all natural fibres, walking in all natural materials and using cutting tools that have or involve no modern materials or methods of manufacture.

Whether people like it or not they'll probably find that somewhere in their kit there is a fusion of old and new and they'll possibly find that it's one of the better pieces of kit that they own.

Does wool insulate when it's wet, In my experience yes it does, I think they tried to explain it here, here and here.
 
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