Modern bushcraft !?!

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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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You beat as much water as you can out of wool, and it will regain most of it's loft, and is again capable of insulating you. Wet cotton is still collapsed and useless.
And yet so many snorkelers wear cotton (denem blue jeans) while snorkeling in cold water.
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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The climate whrre these russians operated is inland, and thus dry. The same cliamte and temperatures at which down is a very good option.
But her eon the coast, like in England, it would just get soaked, collapse and be useless.

The reason I for example do not use down sleeping bags, is that I am in a wet coastal climate.......
I too live in a wet coastal climate (albeit a warm one usually now) But I've also lived in wet inland climates (much, much wetter than a coastal climate) and dry coastal climates.
 

santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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Sorry - I thought we were discussing body clothing here :)
I have reduced Goretex jackets to leaky tat within a year while my Ventile keeps working at the same efficiency as when new for several years and my 5.11 trousers have outlasted "high tech" nylons in real wear by about a factor of 3 while my Merino wool T-shirts have outlasted some modern fabric Ts staying comfortable when the synthetics have gone hard and uncomfortable - and Merino stays smelling sweet long after the synthetic Ts are akin to toxic waste!
I do have a WW2 webbing belt around here somewhere and altho showing a bit of age it sure hasn't rotted away yet :)
LOL. You do live in a fairly easy climate for that web gear though. The biggest problem was in tropical and semi-tropical climates. Dry rot in the desert was/is particularly bad too.

Despite some of my posts, I too usually prefer natural fiber clothing (usually, but not always, cotton over wool though)
 
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santaman2000

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Jan 15, 2011
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I like the way the thread has specialized on how clothing keeps you warm when wet. It tends to totally ignore any possibility that any of us like to explore/play in hot climates.

Tell me Bumbler, how well does that wool do for you in the Mojave? Death Valley?
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
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LOL. You do live in a fairly easy climate for that web gear though. The biggest problem was in tropical and semi-tropical climates. Dry rot in the desert was/is particularly bad too.

Despite some of my posts, I too usually prefer natural fiber clothing (usually, but not always, cotton over wool though)
I can see the tropics being a problem for cotton - but when I was expeditioning in the tropics the main kit failures we had were nylon tent flysheets degrading in UV light and falling apart -polyester ones were better but cotton outlasted them!
 

John Fenna

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I like the way the thread has specialized on how clothing keeps you warm when wet. It tends to totally ignore any possibility that any of us like to explore/play in hot climates.

Tell me Bumbler, how well does that wool do for you in the Mojave? Death Valley?
OOOOh nearly missed that one!
Actually wool is very good in hot weather - lightweight wool garments at least - and helps regulate the way sweat evaporates to cool the skin, holing it close to the body for max cooling power instead of letting it drip away.
By the way - what bickies are we having?
I vote for chocolate digestives!
Surely they are the best traditional type of biscuit and streets ahead of ultra modern varieties in taste, texture (dry and dunked) than modern alternatives?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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OOOOh nearly missed that one!
Actually wool is very good in hot weather - lightweight wool garments at least - and helps regulate the way sweat evaporates to cool the skin, holing it close to the body for max cooling power instead of letting it drip away.....
Certainly sounds logical john. But it hasn't been my experience. I do seem to be able to wear wool felt hats fairly comfortably but even then, a cotton one or a pith helmet type (where the actual helmet is help an inch or so off your head by the harness) work better.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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I can see the tropics being a problem for cotton - but when I was expeditioning in the tropics the main kit failures we had were nylon tent flysheets degrading in UV light and falling apart -polyester ones were better but cotton outlasted them!
Yeah, photo degradation is a problem with nylon as you say. I learned that quickly when I took up skydiving (with nylon chutes) in the Mohave.

Interesting to note (speaking of kit failure) is that one of the items that I've had wear out the most often is velcro.
 
Feb 15, 2011
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I'll join, as long as we agree that these are personal preferences we disagree about, and not actual facts about the materials.
Don't let facts get in the way of truth ;).......I'm not on any side in this wet wool 'debate' as I never wear/use the 'orrible itchy stuff but I do know perceptions are more important than scientific figures & graphs formulated in a lab as there are so many variables that science cannot take into consideration. If you say that wet wool doesn't keep you warm then that is true for you, like wise if someone says the opposite then that is true too, it's what we percieve that matters & arguing the toss over which point of view has more validity because it's backed up by some scientific laws is pointless.
If someone is standing shivering dressed in wet wool yet science tells them they shouldn't be cold......where is the truth?
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
4,348
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Lancashire
Bamboo? what you mean is viscose that has been derived from the carbonization of bamboo products. It is a chemical product that uses bamboo as the startin material instead of petroleum by products. It is not a green product as such since it is an industrial process needed to make anything useful out of the bamboo.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
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Lancashire
anecdotally wool does not work for me it gets overwhelmed too easily and doesn't dry or feel dry very quickly after getting wet.

Reality is it doesn't wick it absorbs. Once absorbed the moisture is not easily released again during use. It builds up and in many situations when I've used it in real use in the wet, mild weather on our western hills I have been uncomfortable. Even my light merino boxers in spring resulted in severe discomfort due to sweating overwhelming the wool. It only takes about 20% moisture content by weight for it to have an effect I once read.

Armies using one material over another is not always about the best performance, it is often a compromise between price, performance, durability and use which is to a different criteria to civilian use in most cases. That is why you get a lot of seriously tough kit made for squaddies but not for most hill-walkers or bushcrafters (although the latter tend to find the tough military stuff to their preference as well even if not best suited - another can of worms perhaps).

I do wonder if there is a language and culture thing going on between bumbler and RG598. I have to say both from my experience and all the writings, research and papers I've had my way from this and other forums over the years this wool argument is kept going by the insistence of one side for their truth over all the scientific consensus based on good physics. however that is not to say wool is not good. There is always the human element in clothing and equipment. You can have the hard science proving one thing but the psychology of it means people only see one way, that is their way and will argue the toss over it.

I say fine! You have your view and I will have mine. I doubt it will be life or death for either of us. If our kit isn't keeping us warm we'll most likely have extra kit to add anyway. That tends to be the bushcraft way, or so it seems.
 

John Fenna

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Oct 7, 2006
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Yeah, photo degradation is a problem with nylon as you say. I learned that quickly when I took up skydiving (with nylon chutes) in the Mohave.

Interesting to note (speaking of kit failure) is that one of the items that I've had wear out the most often is velcro.
At least you survived......
Yea - Velcro is no hero of mine really - the hooks fracture in extreme cold, they get clogged and as for fire-resistant... the fur melts too easily!
wool Tshirts work fine year round - but I only wear them in winter coz my man boobs are ugly in anything less than a sports bra!
Also I NEED lots of pockets so a shirt with good sized pockets is a real need in summer - and Ts don't have 'em!
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
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Bamboo Viscose...Ah - so a modern fabric derived from renewable sources ... where is the bad?
It sounds like the ideal compromise :)
 

Ivan...

Ex member
Jul 28, 2011
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Dartmoor
You Guy's! I think you have tied yourselves up in knots, thank god i don't have any knowledge or opinion, nearly joined in with the biscuit thing though!

But i will resist temptation, as there was a biscuit debate.

Sorry, carry on.

Ivan...
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,555
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At least you survived......
Yea - Velcro is no hero of mine really - the hooks fracture in extreme cold, they get clogged and as for fire-resistant... the fur melts too easily!
wool Tshirts work fine year round - but I only wear them in winter coz my man boobs are ugly in anything less than a sports bra!
Also I NEED lots of pockets so a shirt with good sized pockets is a real need in summer - and Ts don't have 'em!
Yeah i need pockets too. Some Ts do have them (but usually limited to a single pocket) Dickies comes to mind for a heavy (ish) durable one.

I'm toying with the idea of one or more Pock-Its such as one of these:www.mypockits.com
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,555
933
63
Florida
....Armies using one material over another is not always about the best performance, it is often a compromise between price, performance, durability and use which is to a different criteria to civilian use in most cases.....
I'd say we disagree here. You're quite right about the criteria used by armies in most cases (at least as regards the type gear we're discussing) BUT!!! Unless you're independently wealthy or have a sponsor who is, then I'd say that's also the exact same criteria most of us use.