Macho?

[Wayland]

Reading an old thread about crafts here.

There was an interesting comment that I've only just spotted.

How's this?...

I've stuffed 2 spare socks with lavender flower heads that I've cut back in the garden and placed one in each of my lads pillow cases to help aid quality sleep (not that they really need it, they can sleep for England if we let them) and to freshen their rooms a bit.

I've also got some elderberry wine on the go.

Not really macho crafts I know but all I can do with a bust hand

What is classed as a "Macho" craft I wonder.

Leatherwork could be seen as macho but it's only stitching so what about embroidery?

Making jerky is manly I guess but what about baking cakes or making jam?

How would this distinction stand up to a mountain man who needed a great mix of skills to thrive?

Now that's an interesting discussion.

 

[stevesteve]

I make a mean red current jelly when provoked ;-)

Cheers,
Steve

 

[TallMikeM]

lead miners, in the 18th and 19th century, (a fairly macho bunch of guys I'd say) in the Dales used to knit whilst walking to work (actually, knitting was a fairly common sideline activity for a lot of rural working men) yet knitting is seen as a feminine activity.

 

[spamel]

Jerky, I haven't made any in a few months! I'll get on it as soon as I can!

 

[Wayland]

lead miners, in the 18th and 19th century, (a fairly macho bunch of guys I'd say) in the Dales used to knit whilst walking to work (actually, knitting was a fairly common sideline activity for a lot of rural working men) yet knitting is seen as a feminine activity.

Precisely my point.

There is a tendency to categorise certain crafts according to a perception that either men or women did them but not only is such a distinction outdated, in fact it probably never was correct.

 

[Mirius]

I've had more than a few raised eyebrows when I've admitted to knitting. It's something that I should try again I guess, though I'm not entirely sure what I'd want to make!

 

[Eric_Methven]

Now that's a really good question, and one I've pondered on many times because I personally prefer many of the craft skills seen as "womens' work".

Alright, I do woodcraft, leathercraft and a wee bit blacksmithing - all traditionally mens' work but I also like spinning (with a drop spindle), weaving and cooking. I've had a bash at making tablet woven belts and thoroughly enjoyed it. However, when I'm doing living history, the latter skills (with the exception of cooking) was done almost exclusively by the women members of the group. So what pillock decided to differentiate skill groups between the genders?

If my living history colleagues are right, then this goes way back in time. Why? Was it because the man would be out hunting while the woman stayed home looking after the kids, making stuff for the home while she was doing that?

Personally I think it's a fairly modern concept, possible Victorian. I think before that, people shared skill groups and thought nothing of it. Besides, before these crafts as we now know them became what we now think of as hobbies, they were essential to the survival of community in a rural existence. Our forefathers didn't make wooden bowls and cups in anticipation of a bushcrafty weekend, they made them so their family could eat and drink from something. And if the head of the house was turning bowl out to trade with others, he would also train his sons in the skills as well. What if he only had a daughter? Well of course he would train her in bowl turning on his pole lathe. He'd probably also be well skilled in using a drop spindle to spin wool, as would all the children - boy as well as girls. The amount of spun yarn needed to weave a blanket is enormous, and while either mother or father could, and would weave on their warp weighted loom, everyone in the family would be able to spin, and spin well, to keep the loom supplied with yarn.

So, macho is a modern concept. Probably invented by males who felt somewhat inadequate and needed to prove something. B0llocks to them. Anybody fancy teaching me to knit?

Eric

 

[Eric_Methven]

I've had more than a few raised eyebrows when I've admitted to knitting. It's something that I should try again I guess, though I'm not entirely sure what I'd want to make!

You could always try and knit your avitar

Eric

 

[jojo]

I've had more than a few raised eyebrows when I've admitted to knitting. It's something that I should try again I guess, though I'm not entirely sure what I'd want to make!

Could it be that the raised eyebrows were more directed to the "why bother to do it" when you can buy more cheaply at Primark than you can make it? rather that the fact a man could do it?

A mountain man, A native American, a bushcrafter or anyone trying to lead a self sufficient lifestyle would need a myriad of skills to survive.

What puzzles me more is that there seems to be so few people who seem to be able to do this sort of thing.

 

[Wayland]

Cooking is a great example.

I still know people who think cooking is "women's work" but a barbecue is a man's job.

I love cooking, I look forward to doing a bit of camp fire cooking every now and again but I also do most of it at home these days.

 

[Wayland]

Could it be that the raised eyebrows were more directed to the "why bother to do it" when you can buy more cheaply at Primark than you can make it? rather that the fact a man could do it?

A mountain man, A native American, a bushcrafter or anyone trying to lead a self sufficient lifestyle would need a myriad of skills to survive.

What puzzles me more is that there seems to be so few people who seem to be able to do this sort of thing.

I think you answered your own question there.

Part of the reason no one ever repairs things these days is that it is cheaper to replace them.

I think craft skills are going the same way.

I'm often asked by the kids I teach where I get my Viking stuff from.

When I say I had to make it myself they say "No, really where did you get it?"

 

[spamel]

I'm not throwing a good jumper out if it has a hole in it. I'll repair it as best I can, it won't look pretty and the missus will roll her eyes and laugh at my attempts at darning a hole up, but then she doesn't accompany me out doors, so I need to know how to do it in case I need to repair it out there! Anyway, jumpers get better with age, so a new one would be rubbish for a while. Therefore, if each time you knacker one you go out and buy a new jumper, you're always gonna have a rubbish jumper! It takes a few minutes to sew it up, I don't think knowing how to sew on a button or make a quick fix when a strap pulls off of your bergen is a girly skill at all, they are essential skills to have if you want to be tramping outdoors.

 

[Cobweb]

I can't knit to save my life, I can crochet though

 

[Jared]

If my living history colleagues are right, then this goes way back in time. Why? Was it because the man would be out hunting while the woman stayed home looking after the kids, making stuff for the home while she was doing that?

Yes, I think it goes way back. Males seem predisposed to protect females, so anything involving risk (like hunting, military service) generates alot of resistance.

But other species seem to have gone the other direction, like Lions, the female is the hunter. Theory being they are more agile, and less encumbered with not having a mane.

 

[spamel]

Or it could be they nag their prey into submission!

 

[Jared]

Or it could be they nag their prey into submission!

Or stone-aged man thought tackling a giant hairy mammoth with a stick and a pointy stone was a better proposition to the nagging stone-age wife, and wailing offspring

Thankfully beer and the pub were invented.

 

[Tengu]

I think its probably a victorian concept.

They were so keen to liberate the Kildan men from their looms. (fowling and stuff with machinery were mans jobs, ie a loom, so very often a lot of the textile craft was also a mans job. The women did the growing and carried heavy loads...like a lot of societies....those of you who are married should think about this)

Isnt there a smithing caste in India where the metal work is the work of women?. (its the mans job to market it)

the saami women hunted, didnt they? (it would seem the men did `modern` work, such as metal work and herding, while the women the hunting and leathercraft of the primitive saami.....and of course most (not all) lapland witches were male)

 

[gregorach]

If my living history colleagues are right, then this goes way back in time. Why? Was it because the man would be out hunting while the woman stayed home looking after the kids, making stuff for the home while she was doing that?

Personally I think it's a fairly modern concept, possible Victorian. I think before that, people shared skill groups and thought nothing of it.

Well, I do know that before the 1842 Mines and Collieries Act women worked down coal mines, and it doesn't get much more macho than that... But on the other hand, it is clear that many domestic chores have been long been regarded as "women's work". So basically women would traditionally work just as hard as the men in all sorts of trades, and then go home and work equally hard to look after the house and family while the men went to spend their wages in the pub. The differentiation between skill groups mostly went one way...

To get into why this was the case, you start getting into potentially controversial political topics such as the existence of patriarchy...

 

[Mirius]

I'm sorry Eric but I refuse to believe that you can't knit!

Not that I've done it for twenty years, but if I can, you'll find it easy enough. Of course doing it well takes practice, but I take that for granted.

 

[Ogri the trog]

...was going to mention that knitting was once a male passtime, certainly in the farming communities. Also that in ancient history, the Persians were reported to have a regiment of elite female archers - so dedicated to their cause as to have their left breast removed to allow a cleaner release of the bow string. So even the protection deal doesn't ring true all the time.
I've been known to use both anvil and sewing machine during a weekend but I have yet to get to grips with spinning and knitting - having aunts who can knit jumpers by looking at you to guess your size, you can sit chatting and watch the thing grow before your eyes! I was taught to sew by my grandfather who was a sailmaker when he joined the navy, way back in nineteen-canteen. So I'm more than willing to do whatever is necessary to repair or make the things I need.

ATB

Ogri the trog