Ignorant Public regarding Knives

[dommyracer]

Do not believe all the BS that the papers spout over hear. They are in the business of selling papers. Also you may wont to check to see how many of the 3.93 you refer
to were good shootings.

That's official crime figures, not from the newspaper. And what the hell is a 'good shooting'. Sutely no shooting is a good shooting.

I completely understand that you have the legal right to carry a gun and feel that you need to because you feel that a bad person might have one.
But it always amazes me that the reason the bad person is likely to have one is because of the same gun laws that allow you to carry a gun so easily.

Don't get me wrong, if I lived in the US I'd be packing like everyone else....

 

[Carcajou Garou]

I would suspect a "good shooting" would be in self defence (defending yourself, a loved one, an innocent bystander, a victim of crime) as opposed to a criminal act of murder, robbery, or such felonious activity.

 

[dommyracer]

The stats are based on criminal homicides - so they won't include homicides that have been judged to be non-criminal.

 

[madrussian]

Don't get me wrong, if I lived in the US I'd be packing like everyone else....

You make it sound like the old wild west. Not everyone carries a gun. There are a few. Even more that keep one in their vehicle. I only own one rifle and that's for hunting nothing else. However, I always have an SAK on me at all times. Not for self defense but for everyday use. But judging from some of the posts, it sounds like I would be breaking the law in the UK by carrying it in my pocket without having some reasonable cause for doing so. uppy_dog I use it all the time, but not as a function of my job. I never leave home without one.

 

[BorderReiver]

The Spyderco UK is a really nice knife to handle, and to use, but boy does it get a reaction
It's the only knife I've used that had teenage boys desperate to get their hands on it......, but it's looks are a problem in a public situation, every other knife in a woman's hand they just think is a tool. That one I was actually asked if it were, "A good chib?" Even skinning knives didn't get that reaction.

cheers,
Toddy

What would be their attitude to this one?Spyderco Captain
It's not street legal and I only carry it for bimbles in the woods.It works a treat in subduing brambles and the like.

I honestly can't understand why the UKPK evokes such a reaction.

 

[Tengu]

I cant say its my thing.

Give me a SAK any day

 

[dommyracer]

I always have an SAK on me at all times. Not for self defense but for everyday use. But judging from some of the posts, it sounds like I would be breaking the law in the UK by carrying it in my pocket without having some reasonable cause for doing so

No. As long as the blade is under 3" and its a non locking folder you don't need a good reason.

I carry one all the time as well.

 

[Toddy]

What would be their attitude to this one?Spyderco Captain
It's not street legal and I only carry it for bimbles in the woods.It works a treat in subduing brambles and the like.

I honestly can't understand why the UKPK evokes such a reaction.

Now that one does look like a tool. Is that 'chisel' tip as useful as it looks?

Tbh Tengu I liked my Opinal as an edc but since it can be considered a locking knife it's on the verge of trouble for me.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[BorderReiver]

Now that one does look like a tool. Is that 'chisel' tip as useful as it looks?
Tbh Tengu I liked my Opinal as an edc but since it can be considered a locking knife it's on the verge of trouble for me.

cheers,
Toddy

It lets you push down hard when cutting e.g.birch bark.

The recurve blade is good to use as it "catches" the rope,or the nettle stem or whatever.

 

[Tadpole]

Do not believe all the BS that the papers spout over hear. They are in the business of selling papers. Also you may wont to check to see how many of the 3.93 you refer
to were good shootings.

In 2004 (in the USA) there were 14,121 people killed with guns of all types , 9,326 people were murdered (under the US meaning of the term) in that figure and according to the FBI's own stat's, only 434 were considered "good shootings" of the 434 'good shootings' 170 were carried out by private citizen.
That means that less than 4.65% of the people killed murdered by guns were justified. The rest, not so.
The 2004 data yielded an estimated across the board rate of 5.5 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.

Do not believe all the BS that the gun lobbyist tell you. :tapedshut

 

[Tony]

I'm impressed with the posting so far on this thread, i'd imagine that there's not a lot more to say on the initial subject of the thread, everyone has different views of what is and what should be and it's good to hear them so that we can all make informed decisions that really could have a large impact on our lives.

For some it might be worth reading the law article by Dan found here... and the links that have already been offered are excellent. We can have quite a bit of freedom with our edged tools as long as we're considerate and we think about what we're doing, we can influence things by being considerate and sensible and showing people that they are tools, most of us are in a position to have a lot of influence over other people for good or bad, it's out example that will often sway people to reconsider their narrow views, or re-enforce them, if we use tools it's our responsibility to consider many more factors than just cutting the materials in our hand or the job at hand.

Chatting about knife use and perception is fine but please leave the gun talk alone, as has been mentioned that will get the thread closed so leave it alone. The only place for gun talk is when in conjunction with hunting and then it's closely monitored.

And as a last quick aside...i notice the odd bit of language creeping in, even abbreviated it's not acceptable so please don't do it.

Now what shall I carve today

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

Thanks for all the different views.

I like the ex copper! Very funny.

My brother was a copper in Manchester.
He now lives in Wales.
A part from a small SAK, he viewed every knife as illegal.
It seemed strange having to explain the law to him, he's 5 yrs older than me.
He's a graduate and intelligent.
He was in the Cadets and did a fair amount of outdoor stuff.
He did Wainwright's Coast to Coast in 10 days when he was 18.

When I worked in an inner city boys' school as a security guard, I always had a folding knife in my rucksack.

I brought in my MOD chopper knife to have handle ground down by the old wood work/CDT assistant.
The woodwork/CDT teacher sharpened it for me.
I gave that knife to brother for his fire wood.
He loved it!

Common sense rules!

When I worked at the school I spotted a 15/16 yr old boy picking something up in the bushes outside of school at the end of the day.

It looked like a sheath knife to me.

My and the other guys walked down to the local shops.
I saw this same kid tapping the sheath on a shop windowsill.
In very unpleasant terms I told him to show me what he'd got.
It was a Hitler Youth shaped sheath knife.
I asked him what the "eff" he had that for?
For protection.

I didn't fancy taking the thing off him.
Not so much what he would do to me.
But he and his parents would launch a police complaint as to why he had a black eye!
And broken wrist etc...
I filed reports and told the head.

Nothing happened.

The boy was later excluded.
After the knife incedent he threw a half brick down a stair well.
It landed on a totally innocent 11yr olds head.
He was taken to hospital.
The head did nothing, but expel him for a week.
He was excluded because he would bring the school GCSE exam results down!!!

I have many examples of this type of thing.

Interestingly, where the boy had his knife, a copper was shot dead by a deranged American doorman.

Dib Lane, in Leeds.

 

[Carcajou Garou]

Everyone has presented their side, and the only conclusion is...........................
that we agree to disagree
the truth lies somewheres in between.

 

[avalon]

Whether you like it or not, carrying a knife is no longer socially acceptable in the UK or in many other countries.
If, as many of us do, you carry some kind of bladed tool, it is much easier to just hide it away until it is needed and avoid any kind of confrontations or judgement from colleagues or the police.

 

[Twoflower]

I've always found it strange how the public perception, regarding the one tool that humans have used since they could forge metal, is so off. Especially when everyday millions of people, who would be shocked to see someone carrying a bushcraft knife, use knives 2 times bigger to prepare their own dinner.

My only experience of seeing this odd reaction to a knife was when I'd set up my tent at a campsite and was sat in the sun taking stuff from my rucksack. A guy who was camping close by walked past just as I was taking my knife from my sack and putting it inside my tent (it was sheathed). I wish I'd had a camera because the guy's face really was a picture and for some reason he kept giving me strange looks.

Ah well, we live in interesting times I guess.

 

[dwardo]

I carry a sub 3 inch none locking knife everyday and yes that does include the supermarket of which seems to be some kind of benchmark lol.

I carry my knife legally and i do not need to provide anyone police or citizen with any kind of excuse besides "because i can legally"

However if im waving it around or threatening someone with it then the previously legal item becomes and offensive weapon and given the chimp factor of some of our youth today i think its a perfectly good law. I dont see any justified reason for carrying a large fixed blade unless you have a good reason for using one for work etc, that does not include chopping up fruit for lunch in your office. A small SAK or a UKPK is more cutting power than most will ever need and both can be carried without excuse.

However when out bushying i carry a whole host of sharps usually more than one axe plus a fixed personal blade of 4 inches or more. The law is there not to stop bushcrafty people like us using fixed blades with a good reason its there to stop chimpy chavtastic wastes of carbon and oxygen carrying lethal weapons.
Some say you cant legislate against stupidity but with the complete lack of respect for our fellow man and the really ***** attitude a lot of our youth now have i feel the legislation is needed and works. This is not to say that this alone will satisfy joe public as he sees yet another over hyped media report that implies every person carries a knife and is out to kill people. If you cant control a people for FORCE (not PC these days lol) then the next best thing is FEAR.

"Man kills another man with a knife" = demonise all knives
"man kills another man with a car" = ban all cars ??? no

We need to look at why one man kills another man and what we can do to stop that from happening not throw more legislation at it which is the easy way out as usual. I know i have taken an easy shot at the "chav" but again the issue i think is society, some one once said "if the only tool you have is a hammer you tend to treat everything like a nail"

Knife crime is a symptom of a fractured society not a cause of it.

 

[Tourist]

I like the ex copper! Very funny.

My brother was a copper in Manchester.
He now lives in Wales.
A part from a small SAK, he viewed every knife as illegal.
It seemed strange having to explain the law to him, he's 5 yrs older than me.
He's a graduate and intelligent.
He was in the Cadets and did a fair amount of outdoor stuff.
He did Wainwright's Coast to Coast in 10 days when he was 18.

Sadly, graddie or not, in some aspects of police work coppers use canteen derived legislative interpretation rather than what is actually written by the law makers. I also started as a cadet and did all the outdoorsy stuff: Ten Tors; Devizes to Westminster canoe race; Snowdon; Captain Scott - I kept meeting more squaddies doing those things than coppers so after a few years I switched to the Army. I remember a friend of mine, another copper and a graddie, taking the Chief Constable to court over a refusal of a variation to a Firearm Certificate.......my friend won, but was quietly told to forget promotion. The reason he took the Chief to Court was because the Firearms Department had their own particular interpretation of the Firearms Act which was actually contrary to the legislation - it cost them time and money to defend something that was fundamentally wrong.

Interestingly, where the boy had his knife, a copper was shot dead by a deranged American doorman.

Dib Lane, in Leeds.

Leeds, interesting place. I did my degree and masters there after I left the army, so I stuck my nose into a local TA squadron and also got to know some of the chaps on the police firearms unit. Apparently the 'yoofs' in Chapeltown regularly liked to use passing police cars for target practice as they drove down the road.

edit: Thats target practice with guns.

 

[woodstock]

I will continue to carry my spyderco as well as my swiss army camper I got a stop once a few years back for cycling on the pavement as you know its not safe on the roads ...well I got a pat search and this young constable asked is that a knife you have with his hand on his baton I told him it was a multi tool took it out and showed him his reaction was it was a offensive weapon I said it also has a bottle opener tweezers and a tooth pick needless to say after a quick call to his office he let me go on my way

 

[Tourist]

Woodstock, that was a tad naughty of your young plod. He was either stopping you to bollock you for riding on the pavement OR stopping you of suspicion of something which he should ordinarily declare prior to his search of you. ie "Good evening sir, we've had a report of a burglary and the burglar has made his getaway on a bike similar to the one you are riding. Do you mind if I search you to eliminate you from our enquiries"

Check PACE, every copper should know it and if they contravene it THEY ARE COMMITING AN OFFENCE which is reportable. Like I have said the law works both ways, it protects society and it protects you from over zealous and un-educated civil servants.

Part 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE) empowers any constable acting with reasonable grounds for suspicion to stop, detain and search you or your vehicle, or anything in or on your vehicle for certain items, which may be seized. The provisions of the Act are supplemented by a Code of Practice on stop and search. The contents of the Code must be observed by the police, although the remedy for failure to observe it is usually to make a police complaint - or if prosecuted to raise an objection in court - rather than to take legal proceedings against the police.

PACE also provides some safeguards for other well-used police powers of search. These might relate, for instance, to searches for drugs or firearms and so on. The safeguards also apply in a limited way to controversial powers of stop and search introduced by the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 when it is feared that an incident involving serious violence may take place.

The police do not have general powers, apart from those specified in a statute, to stop and search you, unless you consent. You should ask the police officer to explain on what basis they are searching you. If no search power exists you should be told that you do not have to consent and if you do not, you should not be searched.


Relevant Links
Links to the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 on the HMSO website:


www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940033_en_1.htm

 

[Ogri the trog]

Interesting notes there Tourist,
But by refusing to consent to a search, would you not be raising suspicion that you have something to hide? And hence find yourself in deeper trouble for trying to pull one over on the police.

I've never had any trouble, but I'd hate for my first confrontation (not that I'm planning one) to be an escalation of egos to the point where I find myself with a record!

ATB

Ogri the trog