We can all have our differing opinions as long as we are civil about it.
Sometimes you have to take certain replies with a grain of salt. Even if you don't agree with someones view, you can still learn from it. Or just have a good laugh at it. Ignorant Public regarding Knives
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We can all have our differing opinions as long as we are civil about it.
Sometimes you have to take certain replies with a grain of salt. Even if you don't agree with someones view, you can still learn from it. Or just have a good laugh at it. 
I disagree; all you have read is simple common sense.
The laws of the country are just that; laws.
The reality of life in our busy little island is that most people see knives as a tool for the kitchen or garden. Craftspeople, outdoors folks and workmen who use those *tools* elsewhere are expected to act responsibly with them.
I would suggest that before you, "carry a knife where you bloody well choose" you actually read the laws and relevant guidelines, 'cos the corollary is "Hell mend you".
Our use is generally limited to work, craft, and woodland activities and most of us don't see the need to wander around Asda or Boots carrying a knife
Some very good reading on the matter is available on these two sites.
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/index.php
http://www.bkta.org/index.php
cheers,
Toddy
If in doubt: Read the pertaining legislation, the bottom line is that if you are ever reported for an offence you are reported to be contravening a piece of legislation.
So, if you actually read the legislation rather than twaddling about what you think the legislation says or implies then you will find you have much more latitude in actually carrying knives in a public place*. In spirit the law requires that you have lawful purpose or reasonable excuse to be carrying what you are carrying - knives or baseball bats.
I shall give some examples, as a former plod, of what 'might' have happened in set circumstances:
1. If I had seen a chap dressed as Ray Mears wandering into Tesco with a bushie on his belt, I would have asked what he was doing locally. If he had told me he was camped around the corner communing with badgers I'd have asked him to take the knife off his belt and put it in his pocket whilst in Tesco.........he has a 'REASONABLE EXCUSE' [This is a legal term].
2. Chap wandering down the road in cammies carrying a machete. Here you would probably find yourself looking down the business end of an MP5 when you are asked what you are doing. Alternatively, a good plod would make sure he stood well back on the other side of a car before shouting over to ask what he was doing.
3. 03.00AM a call from a household that a burglar has been apprehended. On arrival there is a Paramedic crew dealing with the burglar who has a laceration to the skull and a broken arm. He tells you that the householder went for him with Mr. Baseball bat. When speaking with the householder you slide in a question about his prowess at the game of baseball, he tells you he does'nt play. You then ask why he has the baseball bat. He tells you it is to take care of intruders..........WRONG ANSWER. This immediately makes the baseball bat an offensive weapon and depending on the prosecutor and how far he wants to push it may result in the householder doing time.
4. A chap comes home. He pats his dobermann on the head. He notices his doberman is sort of half choking, bit like a furball. He gives the dog a hard slap to help out and the dog coughs up two [2] fingers, down to the first joint. 'Kin hell. He looks around and finds an open window but no intruder. Shortly after there is a knock at the door the nice policeman wants to report him for having a dangerous dog.........believe it or not, the burglar made a complaint.
The law is an bottom, but the law also works both ways. Remembering I used to be a plod, most plods are as dim as the day is long - you do not even need to be able to read and write to be a plod nowadays, honest - ask me and I'll explain. How many coppers do you think have actually sat down and read a piece of legislation from beginning to end? Record numbers of graddies but are they joining plod, short answer 'no'.
My advice to you, read the law, know what your reasonable excuse is and fight your corner if confronted - 9 times out of 10 if you quote legislation plod will back down.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996026.htm
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/Ukpga_19880033_en_12.htm
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1997/1997021.htm
DISCLAIMER: These are my ramblings. They are not intended or implied as advice or guidance, you should always seek clarification from a suitably qualified authority or person - Personally I would write to the Chief Constable explaining what I do where I do it and what I intend to carry, trust me he'll write back.
* Public place: A place to which the public have access by payment or otherwise - for example: a footbal match; Tesco; public car park; or, the Bush moot.
So, if you actually read the legislation rather than twaddling about what you think the legislation says or implies then you will find you have much more latitude in actually carrying knives in a public place*. In spirit the law requires that you have lawful purpose or reasonable excuse to be carrying what you are carrying - knives or baseball bats.
I shall give some examples, as a former plod, of what 'might' have happened in set circumstances:
1. If I had seen a chap dressed as Ray Mears wandering into Tesco with a bushie on his belt, I would have asked what he was doing locally. If he had told me he was camped around the corner communing with badgers I'd have asked him to take the knife off his belt and put it in his pocket whilst in Tesco.........he has a 'REASONABLE EXCUSE' [This is a legal term].
2. Chap wandering down the road in cammies carrying a machete. Here you would probably find yourself looking down the business end of an MP5 when you are asked what you are doing. Alternatively, a good plod would make sure he stood well back on the other side of a car before shouting over to ask what he was doing.
3. 03.00AM a call from a household that a burglar has been apprehended. On arrival there is a Paramedic crew dealing with the burglar who has a laceration to the skull and a broken arm. He tells you that the householder went for him with Mr. Baseball bat. When speaking with the householder you slide in a question about his prowess at the game of baseball, he tells you he does'nt play. You then ask why he has the baseball bat. He tells you it is to take care of intruders..........WRONG ANSWER. This immediately makes the baseball bat an offensive weapon and depending on the prosecutor and how far he wants to push it may result in the householder doing time.
4. A chap comes home. He pats his dobermann on the head. He notices his doberman is sort of half choking, bit like a furball. He gives the dog a hard slap to help out and the dog coughs up two [2] fingers, down to the first joint. 'Kin hell. He looks around and finds an open window but no intruder. Shortly after there is a knock at the door the nice policeman wants to report him for having a dangerous dog.........believe it or not, the burglar made a complaint.
The law is an bottom, but the law also works both ways. Remembering I used to be a plod, most plods are as dim as the day is long - you do not even need to be able to read and write to be a plod nowadays, honest - ask me and I'll explain. How many coppers do you think have actually sat down and read a piece of legislation from beginning to end? Record numbers of graddies but are they joining plod, short answer 'no'.
My advice to you, read the law, know what your reasonable excuse is and fight your corner if confronted - 9 times out of 10 if you quote legislation plod will back down.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996026.htm
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/Ukpga_19880033_en_12.htm
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1997/1997021.htm
DISCLAIMER: These are my ramblings. They are not intended or implied as advice or guidance, you should always seek clarification from a suitably qualified authority or person - Personally I would write to the Chief Constable explaining what I do where I do it and what I intend to carry, trust me he'll write back.
* Public place: A place to which the public have access by payment or otherwise - for example: a footbal match; Tesco; public car park; or, the Bush moot.
Isn't the point that the billhook, pruning saw and lopper are all proper tools for the job; tested and developed over time, and in a Western European context?
If you believe him to be a sensible guy perhaps you need to consider more what he thinks.
It would do no harm to anyone if the 'exotic' tools are only used in private.
Tourist,
Good post and I think you hit the nail on the head with your "thick ploddies" theme.
I think I'm right in saying that there used to be a minimum educational standard before joining the police force (not "service") - 5 O Levels? The training had a heavy academic slant re the law and it's interpretation which has since been lost. There are still a few excellent coppers out there - but there are an awful lot of appalling ones.
Reading back my previous post: It probably reads a bit OTT - I was trying to make the point that sometimes a little mass civil disobedience is in order. I sometimes wish we were a little bit more like the French (God, did I just say that?!) - they have a very healthy disregard for laws that are an affront to common sense and simply ignore them. Drive around France and you will find a lot of metal posts with black bin liners over the top of them - they're speed cameras and there is a famous story of a police official carying out a scheduled collection of the camera film - and replacing the bin liner afterwards!
Slightly off topic but relevant to your post: Recently my wife and young son were threatened by a young thug with two Staffordshire Bull Terriers - I arrived at this scene as it was taking place and launched myself at him. In the ensuing scrap, I was mauled by the dogs. The police said it was my fault as I hit him first. Result - if ever I find myself in that situation again, I will make sure that I have said "baseball bat" or equivalent to hand, and I won't be troubling our police "service" with the consequences.
I said a knife was a tool - no more no less. Actually it's slightly more than that - it's the one essential to our interest, it can be a work of art and it can be a considerable investment. If any of the good people on here want to "show me theirs" before I make that investment then they should be able to without being made to feel uncomfortable by sheeple or falling foul of what passes for law and order in this country.
Good post and I think you hit the nail on the head with your "thick ploddies" theme.
I think I'm right in saying that there used to be a minimum educational standard before joining the police force (not "service") - 5 O Levels? The training had a heavy academic slant re the law and it's interpretation which has since been lost. There are still a few excellent coppers out there - but there are an awful lot of appalling ones.
Reading back my previous post: It probably reads a bit OTT - I was trying to make the point that sometimes a little mass civil disobedience is in order. I sometimes wish we were a little bit more like the French (God, did I just say that?!) - they have a very healthy disregard for laws that are an affront to common sense and simply ignore them. Drive around France and you will find a lot of metal posts with black bin liners over the top of them - they're speed cameras and there is a famous story of a police official carying out a scheduled collection of the camera film - and replacing the bin liner afterwards!
Slightly off topic but relevant to your post: Recently my wife and young son were threatened by a young thug with two Staffordshire Bull Terriers - I arrived at this scene as it was taking place and launched myself at him. In the ensuing scrap, I was mauled by the dogs. The police said it was my fault as I hit him first. Result - if ever I find myself in that situation again, I will make sure that I have said "baseball bat" or equivalent to hand, and I won't be troubling our police "service" with the consequences.
I said a knife was a tool - no more no less. Actually it's slightly more than that - it's the one essential to our interest, it can be a work of art and it can be a considerable investment. If any of the good people on here want to "show me theirs" before I make that investment then they should be able to without being made to feel uncomfortable by sheeple or falling foul of what passes for law and order in this country.
We are the least policed state in the Western world, we are also the most urbanised. Knives are not acceptable in public places just because you want to carry them.
Knives are tools, very good tools, but context is everything.
Knife crime is a fact of life here, gun crime, regardless of the propaganda of hte NRA and it's ilk, is not the major issue in the UK.
I frequently work in an area where virtually every young man carries knife scars, not bullet scars, but knife. It is so familiar a sight that I can give a fairly accurate guess as to what particular type of knife caused the scarring. and whether the idiot was armed himself and was his attacker right or left handed
I use knives constantly but believe me, if I see someone acting stupidly with one, yes I'll call security/ the police.
Frankly I wouldn't do a policeman's thankless job for love nor money; but I'm incredibly grateful that they are prepared to, and that they do so in the face of some appalling behaviour by those who ought to know better.
This is a bushcraft forum; knife use is an emotive subject for us. Illegal activity reflects badly on all of us and inevitably influences the opinions and behaviour of those who have a measure of control over the access of most folk in the UK to woodland areas.
This isn't a, "Don't rock the boat." plea, simply, a "Please behave in a responsible manner." one.
Toddy
Knives are tools, very good tools, but context is everything.
Knife crime is a fact of life here, gun crime, regardless of the propaganda of hte NRA and it's ilk, is not the major issue in the UK.
I frequently work in an area where virtually every young man carries knife scars, not bullet scars, but knife. It is so familiar a sight that I can give a fairly accurate guess as to what particular type of knife caused the scarring.
and whether the idiot was armed himself and was his attacker right or left handed I use knives constantly but believe me, if I see someone acting stupidly with one, yes I'll call security/ the police.
Frankly I wouldn't do a policeman's thankless job for love nor money; but I'm incredibly grateful that they are prepared to, and that they do so in the face of some appalling behaviour by those who ought to know better.
This is a bushcraft forum; knife use is an emotive subject for us. Illegal activity reflects badly on all of us and inevitably influences the opinions and behaviour of those who have a measure of control over the access of most folk in the UK to woodland areas.
This isn't a, "Don't rock the boat." plea, simply, a "Please behave in a responsible manner." one.
Toddy
I take that you are of the young persuasion.
The Law of the land is the Law.End of.
Break the law (doesn't matter that YOU don't like the law) and you will will end up with hastle.Or in prison.Or an ASBO.Whatever,you will end up with a lot of hastle.
Be sensible with carrying and using your knives and no one gets any bother.
To quote from a court proceeding:
"I do not recognise this court"
"This court,however, recognises you.Four years in prison"
dear Mods I apologise but I am going to deviate off topic a tad.
Hi Fin, it saddens me - as a one time Plod - but yes nowadays the majority of the force is dim, lacks intelligence and sometimes the application of commsense is left wanting.
A lifetime ago when I joined plod, before I joined the Army, you needed to be 5' 8" or 5' 10" in the City of London, you needed O levels, you had to do a strictly controlled entrance exam (not being one to hide behind a bushel I scored the second highest ever result - my mate beat me by 1/2 of a percent). The exams tested your abiliy to read, write and do maths.
After the Army I decided to go back to the Police, as a Special Constable, application forms, interview and in. No test or exam. I questioned this with one of the personnel plods that I had gotten to know. He told me that he thought it was stooopid in the extreme, but that in order to get recruits for plod they had had to drop any semblence of recruitment academic testing other than assuming that the candidate could write because he/she had completed the application form.
It gets worse, said personnel plod went on to tell me of an applicant that sent in his completed form, attended interview, got thru the medical and was on the first day of initial training..........when........he put up his hand and asked what had just been written on the board. Honest I kid thee not, the guy could not read and write. Someone else had filled out all his paperwork and he had sent it in. AND, to cap it off, under discrimination legislation they could not bin him, they had to be willing to provide him with an assistant that could read and write on his behalf.................I was not told the outcome but I assume he was paid of and told to go away.
Nowadays the Sergeants and Inspectors exams are more or less tick tests compared to the marathon legal type written exams they used to be. Standards across the board have seriosly fallen and to be honest anyone with a decent education and the ability to read legislation can run rings around the average plods ability to make something stick.........trust me, been there seen it. It costs the average county force a fortune in compensation payments for false arrest, unlawful arrest and detention, distress and injury. And remember, if a copper touches you it is just as much assault as if you touch him/her.
Definition of a police officer:
A citizen locally appointed by the crown for the protection of life, property and the prevention and detection of crime.
They do not have a cloak of invisibility or get out of jail free cards, the law applies to everyone and they cannot make it up as they go along.
Hi Fin, it saddens me - as a one time Plod - but yes nowadays the majority of the force is dim, lacks intelligence and sometimes the application of commsense is left wanting.
A lifetime ago when I joined plod, before I joined the Army, you needed to be 5' 8" or 5' 10" in the City of London, you needed O levels, you had to do a strictly controlled entrance exam (not being one to hide behind a bushel I scored the second highest ever result - my mate beat me by 1/2 of a percent). The exams tested your abiliy to read, write and do maths.
After the Army I decided to go back to the Police, as a Special Constable, application forms, interview and in. No test or exam. I questioned this with one of the personnel plods that I had gotten to know. He told me that he thought it was stooopid in the extreme, but that in order to get recruits for plod they had had to drop any semblence of recruitment academic testing other than assuming that the candidate could write because he/she had completed the application form.
It gets worse, said personnel plod went on to tell me of an applicant that sent in his completed form, attended interview, got thru the medical and was on the first day of initial training..........when........he put up his hand and asked what had just been written on the board. Honest I kid thee not, the guy could not read and write. Someone else had filled out all his paperwork and he had sent it in. AND, to cap it off, under discrimination legislation they could not bin him, they had to be willing to provide him with an assistant that could read and write on his behalf.................I was not told the outcome but I assume he was paid of and told to go away.
Nowadays the Sergeants and Inspectors exams are more or less tick tests compared to the marathon legal type written exams they used to be. Standards across the board have seriosly fallen and to be honest anyone with a decent education and the ability to read legislation can run rings around the average plods ability to make something stick.........trust me, been there seen it. It costs the average county force a fortune in compensation payments for false arrest, unlawful arrest and detention, distress and injury. And remember, if a copper touches you it is just as much assault as if you touch him/her.
Definition of a police officer:
A citizen locally appointed by the crown for the protection of life, property and the prevention and detection of crime.
They do not have a cloak of invisibility or get out of jail free cards, the law applies to everyone and they cannot make it up as they go along.
Well as I do not live in the UK. I well make this short. As was posted above You started
loosing. When you let them take your guns.
I Carry a large knife on my belt daily and no one thinks anything about it. I also carry a concealed handgun daily. If someone in an office that I am in wonted to look at my pistol
I would hand it to them to look at it someone else saw it they would not go crazy and
shout what are you doing with That. When people get to the state of paranoid as you seem to have over there. That is when they become sheepel
The heading of this tread says it all.
Traderran, you have a different culture there - which I envy. I worked over there a few times as a Police Officer and invariably ended up doing high risk warrants [the fun end of the job] the Officers there were amazed that we do not carry guns as a matter of course over here.
Sadly, the British will complain about their Government but they do nothing about it and will slowly lose all their rights to a tick tock controlling state.
But, the Law is the Law and you should always stay within it.........but do not assume, read it and understand it.
Sadly, the British will complain about their Government but they do nothing about it and will slowly lose all their rights to a tick tock controlling state.
But, the Law is the Law and you should always stay within it.........but do not assume, read it and understand it.
andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aye, your right. Doubt they would ban the sport though. Just like they havent banned the sale or use of knives.
All they have done is made laws on where and when it is acceptable to use one.
If we were all stick to this then the laws will not get any worse. But lets face it, we now have a generation of kids coming through that think carrying a knife AS A WEAPON is acceptable.
I think the police, and hope they would too, have every right to question someone walking around with an item that could be used as a weapon, IF they are outside of a place where that tool, item etc is used in. Be it knife or baseball bat. If the answer is "im going to the ball park" then that fair enough. As Tourist said about valid reason/excuse.
At the end fo the day 99% or so whatever of this forum uses and carries a knife at some point or another, and we all understand that we have a valid use for it. Mind you in some cases I do wonder. But when people start carrying their knives around with them everywhere just "because" then all it is going to do is put bad press towards bushcraft and us as legitimate knife users.
andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Hello Tourist
First this was not a UK bashing post.
And yes we have a different culture. Buy one that works very well for us.
As to the statement that the law is the law You are right.
But a bad law needs to be changed and it is up to the people to change it if they do not take the time or can not be bothered then they well remain Sheepel
"I take that you are of the young persuasion."
Er -actually I would describe myself as a middle aged professional!
BorderReiver, Toddy et al - you've made good points here re the law and our responsibilities to it. My point is that Dynamite Dan was made to feel uncomfortable whilst conducting a perfectly innocent and legal activity - and therefore the law, in this case, is an bottom!
Apols to the mods and Dynamite Dan if I ratcheted up any emotion in what should be a rational debate and I withdraw the "sickens me' remark - I'll still carry a knife whenever I choose to do so though!
" Er -actually I would describe myself as a middle aged professional!
BorderReiver, Toddy et al - you've made good points here re the law and our responsibilities to it. My point is that Dynamite Dan was made to feel uncomfortable whilst conducting a perfectly innocent and legal activity - and therefore the law, in this case, is an bottom!
Apols to the mods and Dynamite Dan if I ratcheted up any emotion in what should be a rational debate and I withdraw the "sickens me' remark - I'll still carry a knife whenever I choose to do so though!
The thing to remember is that the vast majority of the population do not consider the knife laws to be bad laws. For most folk the law is of no significance because knives are simply implements used in the preparation of dinner, but they wholeheartedly approve of the control measures that inhibit their use as weapons.
Likewise the situation with guns; they are of no relevance to the lives of most folks in the UK. We never have had universal gun ownership, we never felt the need,
I do not want to live in a country where a gun is marketed almost as a fashion accessory, I very much like our beautiful Islands and their people, busy or not .
I do not envy the social set up of any other country, I do not want to live in any other country.
I resent the sheeple comments; people live comfortably here; familiarly here, the overwhelming majority don't expect armed assault on our homes, and we don't feel the need to prepare for it. We are resentful enough that our police have to wear body armour against knives, frankly we are uncomfortable with seeing them armed.
Real life isn't a bad action packed movie
Knife crime in the UK is, to paraphrase a policeman last week, "generally a young man's game and he's no' very much of a man "
If a knife is required you have a legitimate right to use it; if it's not, why do you need it?
(Sorry BB folks, I know, I know, I too have a collection of shiny things )
cheers,
Toddy
Likewise the situation with guns; they are of no relevance to the lives of most folks in the UK. We never have had universal gun ownership, we never felt the need,
I do not want to live in a country where a gun is marketed almost as a fashion accessory, I very much like our beautiful Islands and their people, busy or not
. I do not envy the social set up of any other country, I do not want to live in any other country.
I resent the sheeple comments; people live comfortably here; familiarly here, the overwhelming majority don't expect armed assault on our homes, and we don't feel the need to prepare for it. We are resentful enough that our police have to wear body armour against knives, frankly we are uncomfortable with seeing them armed.
Real life isn't a bad action packed movie
Knife crime in the UK is, to paraphrase a policeman last week, "generally a young man's game and he's no' very much of a man "
If a knife is required you have a legitimate right to use it; if it's not, why do you need it?
(Sorry BB folks, I know, I know, I too have a collection of shiny things
)cheers,
Toddy
"I take that you are of the young persuasion.
Er -actually I would describe myself as a middle aged professional!
BorderReiver, Toddy et al - you've made good points here re the law and our responsibilities to it. My point is that Dynamite Dan was made to feel uncomfortable whilst conducting a perfectly innocent and legal activity - and therefore the law, in this case, is an bottom!
Apols to the mods and Dynamite Dan if I ratcheted up any emotion in what should be a rational debate and I withdraw the "sickens me' remark - I'll still carry a knife whenever I choose to do so though!
Middle aged? Definitely of the young persuasion.
The law,as you so rightly say,can be an bottom.However the Law is the Law and breaking it to make a point is a touch masturbatory IMO.
The point about Dan being made to feel uncomfortable is a good one.BUT that has NOTHING to do with the law.Current meeja led hysteria is to blame for that.It's the constant harping on in the tabloids and on TV about "knife crime".The answer to that,I dont know.
Possibly if Thishad a little more support?
Middle aged? Definitely of the young persuasion.
The law,as you so rightly say,can be an bottom.However the Law is the Law and breaking it to make a point is a touch masturbatory IMO.
The point about Dan being made to feel uncomfortable is a good one.BUT that has NOTHING to do with the law.Current meeja led hysteria is to blame for that.It's the constant harping on in the tabloids and on TV about "knife crime".The answer to that,I dont know.
Possibly if Thishad a little more support?
Totally agree on the "meeja" issue - although perhaps you shouldn't get me started!!
Final point (honest!) let's not forget that, in a democracy, the law is our servant, not our master.
Your link didn't work on my browser mate. Any chance of posting it again?
Oh and can someone teach this IT buffoon how to put emoticons in the body of the text rather than just the post title?
Ta
The http has gotten doubled up; I'll fix it.
http://www.bkta.org/
If you scroll down the page there are emoticons beneath the window that your reply is to be typed into. If you shift your mouse over one of the emoticons, and click on it, the emoticon will be inserted at the last place the cursor was in your reply.
cheers,
Toddy (fellow IT clutz )
http://www.bkta.org/
If you scroll down the page there are emoticons beneath the window that your reply is to be typed into. If you shift your mouse over one of the emoticons, and click on it, the emoticon will be inserted at the last place the cursor was in your reply.
cheers,
Toddy (fellow IT clutz
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