If I say 'Scouts' what do you think of?

[Ogri the trog]

Wow, there are some wildly differing views here.
I went through Cubs and Scouts until I joined the Forces (even going back whilst on leave to help on camps and outdoor events!) Our troop was very much a mountaineering one, spending many weekends throughout the year in the Brecon Beacons or Black Mountains - activities included climbing, abseiling, caving, canoeing, camping and inter-troop challenges. There was great emphasis on knife, axe and sawcraft, knotwork, we made our own fibreglass canoes etc etc. Being based in a Church hall there was a modicum of churchyness but not so much as to distract from the other activities.
I have recently offered my help to the local troop and had to suffer the indignity of a police check (I have nothing to hide yet all are tarred with the same brush), and Chrisanson's comments seem to be true to a point about the boys wanting to play football. It might just be that the weather is on the change and indoor acivities are becoming the winter norm, but I hope to be able to show some Bushcrafty skill to the boys when they are allowed outdoors again.
I don't know about any changes to the Scout promise, and I'm not sure I want to go into the reasons behind members here "not wanting to encourage their children to join" but I do think that the Scout Law :-

A Scout is to be trusted.
A Scout is loyal.
A Scout is friendly and considerate.
A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

... has a good set of ethics that ought to be encouraged for the younger generation of today.

anyway, rambling now - must take another chill pill.

Ogri the trog

 

[drstrange]

Wow, there are some wildly differing views here.
I went through Cubs and Scouts until I joined the Forces (even going back whilst on leave to help on camps and outdoor events!) Our troop was very much a mountaineering one, spending many weekends throughout the year in the Brecon Beacons or Black Mountains - activities included climbing, abseiling, caving, canoeing, camping and inter-troop challenges. There was great emphasis on knife, axe and sawcraft, knotwork, we made our own fibreglass canoes etc etc. Being based in a Church hall there was a modicum of churchyness but not so much as to distract from the other activities.
I have recently offered my help to the local troop and had to suffer the indignity of a police check (I have nothing to hide yet all are tarred with the same brush), and Chrisanson's comments seem to be true to a point about the boys wanting to play football. It might just be that the weather is on the change and indoor acivities are becoming the winter norm, but I hope to be able to show some Bushcrafty skill to the boys when they are allowed outdoors again.
I don't know about any changes to the Scout promise, and I'm not sure I want to go into the reasons behind members here "not wanting to encourage their children to join" but I do think that the Scout Law :-

A Scout is to be trusted.
A Scout is loyal.
A Scout is friendly and considerate.
A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

... has a good set of ethics that ought to be encouraged for the younger generation of today.

anyway, rambling now - must take another chill pill.

Ogri the trog

Trogg, all I am saying is that we don't need these lists of laws and oath's to the queen and God, and military line-ups, do you think the scout law makes a blind bit of difference to children's behaviour, it doesn't at all, do you think that an oath is appropriate to make a child take, a child who is growng and learning and just like the adults, doesn't have the faintest idea of who they are (although they have a much better excuse for their lack of self knowledge). All it does is serve to humour the ignorance of the movement's benefactors and administrators in considering themselves as the children's moral trustees and authority. I'm sorry but it's utter pone.

 

[BorderReiver]

The quasi militaristic,uniformed,Victorian set up must be a turn off to most of todays youth.

Much better,IMO,to re-brand as a Bushcraft Society and get the little dears out into Nature.Do 'em much more good.

 

[dommyracer]

I have recently offered my help to the local troop and had to suffer the indignity of a police check (I have nothing to hide yet all are tarred with the same brush),

I hardly think that a CRB check is an attack on your dignity and is not tarring you with any brush.

If you have nothing to hide then whats the problem? Would you rather that groups working with children take people on their word and perform no checks? Of course not.

Allowing yourself to be subjected to a CRB does not 'tar' you with any brush, in fact quite the opposite.

 

[Tengu]

CRB checks are just there to make money.

Ive done similar for businesses, simply rang the police and asked them if so and so has a police record, and they spend ten minutes on a computer to say a simple yes or no.

If that person `is` known to them they might turn round and say `your not to worry, we think they have reformed.`

Because the police are often the first to want someone to have a chance.

and it doesnt cost more than a phone call.

 

[dommyracer]

CRB checks are just there to make money.

Of course they make money. Money to pay for te administration of the system.

Your example sounds all very well and good, but when there are millions of checks needed for all sorts of occupations, phoning the local bobby becomes a nonsensical proposition.

 

[qweeg500]

I was never in the Scouts but since my 7 year old son has joined I wish I had.
I'm an occasional parent helper at his Lodge and the activities they run are usually based around making and learning things.
Last week they made Darleks out of plastic cups. The week before they were given some leaves and had to match them with the names of tree they came from. In the summer they had a couple of evening nature walks.
I was most impressed by the way the Lodge was run with plenty of support from the 3 Leaders and always a parent or two attending. The best bit for me was seeing my son reciting the Scout Promise whilst saluting in the semi circular Beaver Dam formed by the other Beavers. He'd been learning it all week prior to joining and seeing the sence of achievement on his face was fantastic.

It's great to be a part of something and seeing the pride the kids take in being in the Beaver Scouts is heart warming.

 

[malcolmc]

...parent helper at his Lodge ...

When did troops become Lodges? Sounds almost as if the Scout handshake has become more difficult to master .

 

[Ogri the trog]

Ah well, now that I've posted once, I feel I ought to recipricate.

DrStrange & BorderReiver, (as your comments are broadly similar) described as that, I doubt anyone would want to join. Whether they promise loyalty to god and the Queen or other members of their troop, the fact that the kids are announcing that they will try a little harder to be better than the other kids on the street just has to be a positive thing.

Dommyracer, I don't think that the CRB check is an attack on my personality, but it is a sad situation to be in when society dictates that it should be necessary. You are of course right - I'm happy that the check came back full of "none on record" comments

Queeg500, I am happy for you and your son, I hope you both enjoy the organisation that I enjoyed so much.

Ogri the trog

 

[Goose]

When did troops become Lodges? Sounds almost as if the Scout handshake has become more difficult to master .

The beavers have lodges, scouts are still troops, cubs are packs and explorers are in a unit.

 

[drstrange]

Whether they promise loyalty to god and the Queen or other members of their troop, the fact that the kids are announcing that they will try a little harder to be better than the other kids on the street just has to be a positive thing.

Try a little harder to be better than the other kids on the street Eh/? God? Queen? Troop? Positive??????

No. this is deffinatley not beneficial to anyone.
This is elitist fascist propoganda.
Just fuse the notions of 'God' and Queen and you arrive at 'Fuhrer'.
Country might just as well be the Father Land
Better than the other kids, what, like the master-race?
Even the use of rallys, standards, jamborees and the like Identify it as a neo-Roman festival in historical accordance with the Fascist revival that swept across Europe in the early twentieth century.

Another post in this thread suggests that Baden Powell would dissaprove of the way that scouting has gone because it is a shadow of its former self.
This exerpt from the 'History of Scouting' shows Baden Powell was a military man with all the pre-WW1-carnage gusto displayed by Hague and Co for sending young men into unbelievable horror for God, King and Country:

" Even if quotations from other writings of B-P were not able to supply us with any clue to his motives in creating a youth training scheme, 'Scouting for Boys' has its own internal evidence. Within the original presentation of the Scout scheme there is the emphasis of developing the character considered necessary for national defence(which in the initial editions of 'Scouting for Boys' required training in rifle shooting #23). Although the professed aim of B-P's scheme was 'training in citizenship' was there an ulterior motive ? and what is meant by citizenship ? According to the scout training Baden-Powell aimed at boys, the ideal citizen is at least someone who will be prepared to die for their country. He urges his boy readership; "BE PREPARED to die for your country if need be, so that when the moment arrives you may charge home with confidence, not caring whether you are going to be killed or not" #24. Note that our moment of potential martyrdom is not one that results from civil passive resistance, but active foray into battle. Patriotism of a certain type permeates 'Scouting for Boys' and therefore draws comment from historians. "

If we are going to start dragging Baden Powell into the fray then would you mind if we discussed himin a little more detail?:

The following is an excerpt from a lengthy essay by Michael Bronski on the origins and history of scouting:

"Baden-Powell’s Scouting principles focused on obedience to authority, doing your "duty to God and Country," and "being pure in thought, word, and deed." Scouting—which Baden-Powell referred to as a "character factory"—was a regiment to inculcate a deeply conservative, secular Christianity that espoused a defensive nationalism, racial intolerance, and sexual prohibitions. Scouting would turn out real men who would maintain the status-quo, and not challenge prevailing social standards. When World War I erupted Scouting was seen as the breeding ground of good soldiers.

As World War II began Baden-Powell’s political and racial attitudes, which inform the history of Scouting but are clearly separate from it as well, became even more evident. In 1937 Baden-Powell was eager for the scouting movement to establish official ties with Hitler youth groups. In 1939 he noted in his diary: "Lay up all day. Read Mein Kampf. A wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organization etc.—and ideals which Hitler does not practice himself."

While the Boy Scouts today are certainly not a neo-Nazi group, nor as paramilitary as they were in the past, many of Baden-Powell’s original ideas still remain"

Our youth DO NOT need to be educated in morality by the scouting movement. Our youth do not need to salute a flag, attend church, read an oath of allegance or any other archaic acts of conservative ignorance.

Our youth are desparatley bored and dissolusioned with authority, how can they trust any authority these days? Our 'prime minister' has openly lied to the British people and dragged them (unwillingly) into a dangerous and expensive empirical campaign to secure vast amounts of profit for a few 'club members'.

Our children are secretly terrified by the future that has been built by exactly the same ignorant attitudes which authority figures parade as 'morals'.

 

[British Red]

Dr strange,

We are supposed to self moderate here, please take this post in that respect. You are WAY over the line here. I believe that there have been problems in scouts in the past, as there have in the church (of all types), the police, the military, schools etc. Your deduction of a parallel to Fascism is your opinion (flawed in my view), stated as fact (which it isn't) and calculated to be offensive in my opinion. Graham asked for views, you've already given yours, I've already given mine. If you want to start a discussion on this vbasis, as a minimum it would be coureous to start your own thread and not hijack this one.

As I say, I've known some outstanding individuals involved in scouting (as well as some not so good ones). If you don't like the movement, start one you prefer and do something positive for modern youth rather than bad mouthing those who are trying to get kids in the country and away from playstations. You seem to have ideas as to what that should involve - why don't YOU enact them. I'd support you all the way. Accusing good people of vile associations whilst doing nothing yourself is poor sport in my view

Red

 

[Tengu]

I for one am a firm believer in the Scouting and Guiding movement

saying oaths, do kids realy take them that seriously?

religion, I do not have one, and I would be doubtful of taking kids to church because I feel that gives them a negative view of it. xtianity in this country is, lets face it, merely a club for old biddies (lusting after the youthful vicar...and I have seen several examples of `that`...) My father goes to chapel, he is one of the youngest there and he is nearly 70.

But having the vicar (if he can...I have seen several who couldnt) give a little lecture on the local church and its history is good

I much prefer islam (and I think muslims are a bunch of silly creationists who whine (often sadly justifiably) about their lot whilst failing to do anything about it. But they at least do have sincere piety.)

What about universal brother and sisterhood that scouting and guiding promotes?

What about breaking down class barriers that it also promotes?

 

[drstrange]

Dr strange,

We are supposed to self moderate here, please take this post in that respect. You are WAY over the line here. I believe that there have been problems in scouts in the past, as there have in the church (of all types), the police, the military, schools etc. Your deduction of a parallel to Fascism is your opinion (flawed in my view), stated as fact (which it isn't) and calculated to be offensive in my opinion. Graham asked for views, you've already given yours, I've already given mine. If you want to start a discussion on this vbasis, as a minimum it would be coureous to start your own thread and not hijack this one.

As I say, I've known some outstanding individuals involved in scouting (as well as some not so good ones). If you don't like the movement, start one you prefer and do something positive for modern youth rather than bad mouthing those who are trying to get kids in the country and away from playstations. You seem to have ideas as to what that should involve - why don't YOU enact them. I'd support you all the way. Accusing good people of vile associations whilst doing nothing yourself is poor sport in my view

Red

British Red

'Good' people in a 'bad' organisation if you like, I thought I made that clear.

Are we restricted to 'one go' on this thread? If people post things about Baden Powell, am I not allowed to comment? I'm sorry Red but I'll keep on posting just like anyone else.

Also, you don't know anything about what I am or am not doing to help youth. Just because I don't advertise things doesn't mean that I'm not involved.

Also, this is my view and a view held by very many people in this country, I don't care how many scouts are members of this site, when I joined it it said 'bushcraft' not 'scoutrcraft' so I will deffinately not be bowing to pressure from scouts to be silent about what I consider to be a fundamentally flawed organisation.

Graham asked what came to mind when we thought of scouts, and all this stuff comes to mind. (This is Graham's thread and I'm sure he is a big boy and can jump in when he feels its being hijacked, he might even like to know how deeply the resentment of the movement goes by hearing someone who isn't afraid to come clean about it, lots and lots of people just dismiss the whole movement as rubbish and won't even explain why, who do you think makes up the population of this country? surely you don't think that there aren't people who have good reason to criticise the movement?)

Once again loud and clear THIS IS NOT A SCOUT SITE, IT'S A PUBLIC FORUM!!! If we are supposed to tip toe around the feelings of scouters then change the site to SCOUTCRAFT

I have said what I wanted to say, so I won't be re-posting on this thread unless I have to defend my posts again (the last post was in response to comments on a previous post).

 

[Silverback]

Certainly not going to dip my toe into the whole deep hidden meaning arguement but I have personally helped out at Beaver/Scout camp and do I think they are more rounded individuals than your average kids - absolutely. I am sorry but I believe we are witnessing on a daily basis the result of modern parenting theories and the devastating effect they are having on our kids. Don't get me wrong I am not a 'bring back the birch' man but I do think that we have allowed ourselves to bow to political correctness to the extent where it has become detrimental to our children and their futures - Just my opinion obviously and therefore I don't claim to be either right or wrong

 

[The Joker]

Graham asked what came to mind when we thought of scouts, and all this stuff comes to mind. (This is Graham's thread and I'm sure he is a big boy and can jump in when he feels its being hijacked, he might even like to know how deeply the resentment of the movement goes by hearing someone who isn't afraid to come clean about it, lots and lots of people just dismiss the whole movement as rubbish and won't even explain why, who do you think makes up the population of this country? surely you don't think that there aren't people who have good reason to criticise the movement?)

Yes Graham asked what came to mind..............Not like Red has said hijacking the thread into yet another NEGATIVE self righteous argument.

Why for once cant something stay on topic.

Your point of view was put accross.....Fine.....leave it there.

Like Red said if you want to rant and rave about Baden Powell......START ANOTHER THREAD.

Wait for it.........There'll be another essay answer

 

[drstrange]

Yes Graham asked what came to mind..............Not like Red has said hijacking the thread into yet another NEGATIVE self righteous argument.

Why for once cant something stay on topic.

Your point of view was put accross.....Fine.....leave it there.

Like Red said if you want to rant and rave about Baden Powell......START ANOTHER THREAD.

Negative? Self righteous? sounds like scouting to me. I had left it there, but as I said, I'll defend my post when I'm called out. I'm sorry but do you just want to post and criticize me and hope I'll move me on without comment? That sounds like you want to impose your will on me. You've made YOUR POINT Fine. Leave it there

 

[Toddy]

Hmmm, Scouts

Boys
Friends
Uniforms......neckies and woggles and belts
Badges
Aims and standards of achievement
Wild games
Camping
Patriotism
Helping others
Attempts at regimentation
Campfire food and songs
Canoeing, climbing, night hikes
Interesting people around
Flags and parades
Once a week



Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Silverback]

Nice one Toddy that just about nails it I reckon

 

[OutBackP]

Wow there's a lot of opinion's, maybe we should have a poll. I for one would be interested to see what the overall opinion would be.