Follow the sheeple or head for the hills?
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andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Guess that would depend on the scale of the situation.
Personally, and this is just one possibility, I am lucky enough to have keys to a second property at the opposite end of the town I live in (5 miles apart). If the situation was localised and it was physically possible I'd happily swap house and there is enough rooms to provide somewhere warm and dry and food for a few of my neighbours too, there would also be electricity, gas, phones, internet, radio and tv available (depending on the situation of cause). Personally in this small scale situation i'd rather be there rather than in the school or up the hill.
Personally, and this is just one possibility, I am lucky enough to have keys to a second property at the opposite end of the town I live in (5 miles apart). If the situation was localised and it was physically possible I'd happily swap house and there is enough rooms to provide somewhere warm and dry and food for a few of my neighbours too, there would also be electricity, gas, phones, internet, radio and tv available (depending on the situation of cause). Personally in this small scale situation i'd rather be there rather than in the school or up the hill.
I guess thats rather the point though with this scenario isn't it - what Eric described is a purely local problem. Now clearly if there is a need to assist the frail and elderly to get there or provide emergency first aid then I'm sure most members would "step up". But given the described situation of laid on transport and police co-ordinating and evac', I rather suspect that the job of caring for the evacuees is better left to the professionals. Similarly in terms of being "contactable" - I rather doubt that mobiles etc. would stop working - if friends and family want to know I'm okay they can phone!
Red
Red
I've been having a good think about this thread, and there's some really good and valid points being raised.
One thing has dawned on me though. I've become a cynical old fart.
I've been basing my opinions and observations on personal experience and to be perfectly frank, knowing what I know about where I live and the people who live near me, I'd still head for the hills.
Back in the last century (1998) I was elected Neighbourhood Watch chairman for the five streets around where I live. We'd had trouble from incomers from a run down estate that got demolished and anti social behaviour was rife. We formed a neighbourhood watch and because I put it all together, I was elected chairman (nobody else could be ar$ed , but they all wanted a solution to their problems). It took six months of hard graft, but in the end we got rid of the bad element (borstal and a couple of evictions).
In the summer of 1999, some of us started discussing Y2K, which was very real for some of us and we decided to put together a contingency plan for our community. Things we could do to make sure everyone was safe, secure and well fed if the lights went out and society stopped functioning. We approached County Hall an asked to see their contingency plans. They didn't have any. They were relying on central government for guidance on the issue. So we made our own, knowing that should the worst happen, we would be able to look after all the old folks and those unable to cope on their own.
All went well during the planning phase an we asked all the neighbours what equipment they might have available to contribute to the communal kitty. I chucked in a generator, some large cooking pots, some sleeping bags and a family frame tent. Others said they'd put in camp chairs and tables, blankets, spare food and the like. It looked like we could set up a communal kitchen on the green, complete with shelter and feed everyone at least once a day. Many of the committee started veg gardens.
Anyway, we decided to have an exercise and do a dry run. It was planned for the Saturday when most people would be available. Initially we had fifteen volunteers prepared to set everything up. Six turned up. Still, we put up the tents, set up the tables, got blankets in boxes ready to distribute to those in need and we put a big pan of scotch broth on for everyone. I had my generator going and strung up some energy saver lights around the area. (Although it was the back end of summer 99, we were simulating January 2000.)
Everyone knew the drill, and all were invited from the five streets. They came in their droves - and nicked almost everything. My genny dissapeared, the tent got slashed, the blankets went missing even the broth pot walked. Six of us couldn't do a thing to stop it. There were people from other areas came too, and most of them did the stealing. People had been telling their friends what was going to happen and we just got mobbed.
We called the police and they basically said there was nothing they could do. They also intimated we were daft to be doing such a thing anyway because that's what the emergency services were for. When I asked what their Y2K contingency plans were, they said they didn't know, and didn't much care (these are the local bobbies) as they would be with their families if things went bad.
Anyway, I'd forgotten about that until this thread and I started thinking why I didn't feel as neighbourly as some of the posters have said they were. Now I realise why. With the people who live round my way, any help I offered them would be abused. If I opened my rucksack to feed them, someone would nick the rucksack.
Nah, $orry and all that, but it's definitely heading for the hills for me.
Eric
One thing has dawned on me though. I've become a cynical old fart.
I've been basing my opinions and observations on personal experience and to be perfectly frank, knowing what I know about where I live and the people who live near me, I'd still head for the hills.
Back in the last century (1998) I was elected Neighbourhood Watch chairman for the five streets around where I live. We'd had trouble from incomers from a run down estate that got demolished and anti social behaviour was rife. We formed a neighbourhood watch and because I put it all together, I was elected chairman (nobody else could be ar$ed , but they all wanted a solution to their problems). It took six months of hard graft, but in the end we got rid of the bad element (borstal and a couple of evictions).
In the summer of 1999, some of us started discussing Y2K, which was very real for some of us and we decided to put together a contingency plan for our community. Things we could do to make sure everyone was safe, secure and well fed if the lights went out and society stopped functioning. We approached County Hall an asked to see their contingency plans. They didn't have any. They were relying on central government for guidance on the issue. So we made our own, knowing that should the worst happen, we would be able to look after all the old folks and those unable to cope on their own.
All went well during the planning phase an we asked all the neighbours what equipment they might have available to contribute to the communal kitty. I chucked in a generator, some large cooking pots, some sleeping bags and a family frame tent. Others said they'd put in camp chairs and tables, blankets, spare food and the like. It looked like we could set up a communal kitchen on the green, complete with shelter and feed everyone at least once a day. Many of the committee started veg gardens.
Anyway, we decided to have an exercise and do a dry run. It was planned for the Saturday when most people would be available. Initially we had fifteen volunteers prepared to set everything up. Six turned up. Still, we put up the tents, set up the tables, got blankets in boxes ready to distribute to those in need and we put a big pan of scotch broth on for everyone. I had my generator going and strung up some energy saver lights around the area. (Although it was the back end of summer 99, we were simulating January 2000.)
Everyone knew the drill, and all were invited from the five streets. They came in their droves - and nicked almost everything. My genny dissapeared, the tent got slashed, the blankets went missing even the broth pot walked. Six of us couldn't do a thing to stop it. There were people from other areas came too, and most of them did the stealing. People had been telling their friends what was going to happen and we just got mobbed.
We called the police and they basically said there was nothing they could do. They also intimated we were daft to be doing such a thing anyway because that's what the emergency services were for. When I asked what their Y2K contingency plans were, they said they didn't know, and didn't much care (these are the local bobbies) as they would be with their families if things went bad.
Anyway, I'd forgotten about that until this thread and I started thinking why I didn't feel as neighbourly as some of the posters have said they were. Now I realise why. With the people who live round my way, any help I offered them would be abused. If I opened my rucksack to feed them, someone would nick the rucksack.
Nah, $orry and all that, but it's definitely heading for the hills for me.
Eric
andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Ouch, Eric, that sounds bad.
Have to agree. Any help i'd be offering in terms of belongs etc would be to trusted individuals. I'd totally expect that where I live. But its a shame to hear that so much commitment and hard work was totally abused.
Have to agree. Any help i'd be offering in terms of belongs etc would be to trusted individuals. I'd totally expect that where I live. But its a shame to hear that so much commitment and hard work was totally abused.
It seems to me that what Eric is describing is the way society is going these days.
In the situation of evacuation I would offer my help, as I said, to those who needed it - the elderly, families with small kids and people i know I can trust - a lot of the people that live around here wouldn't deserve any help from me because, IMO, they would be too busy trying to loot and get more things for free rather than help the community.
Just my $0.02
In the situation of evacuation I would offer my help, as I said, to those who needed it - the elderly, families with small kids and people i know I can trust - a lot of the people that live around here wouldn't deserve any help from me because, IMO, they would be too busy trying to loot and get more things for free rather than help the community.
Just my $0.02
Eric - I can quite see how you'd make that decision, based on your previous experiences; to be honest I'd probably be making the same choices. Maybe I'd be heading for the hills, but I'd be feeling guilty if I thought I could have been helpful, and was walking away.
Supposing....
The water's rising, emergency service are overwhelmed and are struggling to cope with the situation. There are hundreds of people who need temporary accomodation, clean water and food that will keep them going. Some of these are nasty little so-and-so's who will take every opportunity to do someone wrong. The Police are trying to keep order, but are getting overwhelmed; AND they're having to keep an eye on the emergency centre...
Enter someone with just that little bit more self reliance than the others, maybe with a bit of 1st aid training and some knoweledge of how to look for signs of hypothermia and suchlike. Someone who's that little bit calmer because they're mentally prepared to deal with the unexpected. This could be a bushcrafter, or it could be a youth leader or an ex-squaddie or fireman... They can help - not by having any specific emergancy skills, that IS a job for the professionals - but by being willing to take on the little jobs and tasks that could mean the Pros are freed up to do what they NEED to. Little jobs like stopping generators being nicked or bedding being slashed, or helping make the broth and seeing that it got fairly shared out.
If there are folk out there who are as bad as you say, wouldn't the people having to cope with them deserve as much help as they can be given?
Supposing....
The water's rising, emergency service are overwhelmed and are struggling to cope with the situation. There are hundreds of people who need temporary accomodation, clean water and food that will keep them going. Some of these are nasty little so-and-so's who will take every opportunity to do someone wrong. The Police are trying to keep order, but are getting overwhelmed; AND they're having to keep an eye on the emergency centre...
Enter someone with just that little bit more self reliance than the others, maybe with a bit of 1st aid training and some knoweledge of how to look for signs of hypothermia and suchlike. Someone who's that little bit calmer because they're mentally prepared to deal with the unexpected. This could be a bushcrafter, or it could be a youth leader or an ex-squaddie or fireman... They can help - not by having any specific emergancy skills, that IS a job for the professionals - but by being willing to take on the little jobs and tasks that could mean the Pros are freed up to do what they NEED to. Little jobs like stopping generators being nicked or bedding being slashed, or helping make the broth and seeing that it got fairly shared out.
If there are folk out there who are as bad as you say, wouldn't the people having to cope with them deserve as much help as they can be given?
That's pretty much the way people are today Eric. I too would have no qualms about leaving the local area with the wife and kids with the kit I have, and setting up by ourselves. I wouldn't want to know anybody else as I have kept myself pretty much to myself in the village and therefore feel that I have no obligation to suddenly start looking after them. Maybe Ratbag would join up with his family, and we could have a ging gang gooly for a few days!
I have enough sleeping equipment and shelters to ensure that the family would be comfortable, there are plenty of containers for transporting water, an essential thing, and I have a few tea bags in the kitchen! We normally have a good stock of food in the house, most of which will last without being refrigerated, but I feel that the authorities, in an extreme situation, would commandeer my kit and supplies for the better of the community. Stuff the community, if they cannot be prepared with a few simple things like a good stock of food and some good sound clothing to ensure they stay out of the elements, why should I supply them? I'm not a Quarter Masters Department!
The feeling I get from your post Eric is that most people are selfish and think of nobody but themselves. I think this is pretty much spot on, and it is this way of thinking that makes me feel why should I be any different in that situation? I watched the day of the triffids and threads, and was struck by how they portrayed the establishment. They took from people, dictated what was to happen and didn't give an option for people to go it alone. I know they are both fictional works (although I am sure there is a Triffid growing in my garden!) but I can't imagine the reality being much different. I'll be damned if somebody will take from my familys' mouths to feed others when I prepared in advance.
This may seem like a rant, maybe it is, but I've had six hours sleep in the last 36 hours so there!
I have enough sleeping equipment and shelters to ensure that the family would be comfortable, there are plenty of containers for transporting water, an essential thing, and I have a few tea bags in the kitchen! We normally have a good stock of food in the house, most of which will last without being refrigerated, but I feel that the authorities, in an extreme situation, would commandeer my kit and supplies for the better of the community. Stuff the community, if they cannot be prepared with a few simple things like a good stock of food and some good sound clothing to ensure they stay out of the elements, why should I supply them? I'm not a Quarter Masters Department!
The feeling I get from your post Eric is that most people are selfish and think of nobody but themselves. I think this is pretty much spot on, and it is this way of thinking that makes me feel why should I be any different in that situation? I watched the day of the triffids and threads, and was struck by how they portrayed the establishment. They took from people, dictated what was to happen and didn't give an option for people to go it alone. I know they are both fictional works (although I am sure there is a Triffid growing in my garden!) but I can't imagine the reality being much different. I'll be damned if somebody will take from my familys' mouths to feed others when I prepared in advance.
This may seem like a rant, maybe it is, but I've had six hours sleep in the last 36 hours so there!
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
As I have said me and lady next door would help each other. But the family four doors up, I not sure I would lift a finger for, as the only thing they know how to lift are wallets. Altruism can be selfish. I am pretty jaded as an individual and certainly I have had people abuse my hospitality, but i figure if you don't give a chance for someone to stitch you up you will never know what they are like in a crisis.
I would not volunteer to help people that do not display the modicum of social behaviour. I have never heard of a rescue situation in the UK where the people being helped have vandalised there own power supply. If ever saw that I would bug out and let them suffer the consequences. I have lived in urban areas most of my life and seen populations stick together when you think they would fall apart. Londoners in bombings for example.
I would not volunteer to help people that do not display the modicum of social behaviour. I have never heard of a rescue situation in the UK where the people being helped have vandalised there own power supply. If ever saw that I would bug out and let them suffer the consequences. I have lived in urban areas most of my life and seen populations stick together when you think they would fall apart. Londoners in bombings for example.
We've seen a lot of flooding down this end of the country, it has always been pretty good at catching people on the hop "Just when you thought your front room was safe from floaters" whoosh and there you go again. It also tended to happen a lot at night, when you were sleeping, so people wake up feeling rather muzzy and not thinking straight.
The first thing to run through their minds was not "Oh, time to go and grab the grab bag, come on Shep walkies" and off into the night they go. It was more "Oh sh1t, me garden is waist high in sewage effluent and my £700 TV is bobbing up an down next to my DVD player" along with "oh bugger that's cold on my feet."
In reality most people do not know how they will react, there are a number who are trained to react and deal with situations, servicemen and women from fire, ambulance, police and military, but not even all of them could tell me how they will react until the moment is upon them.
I've survived a house fire, if I had gone back to get my grab bag to go off bushcrafting whilst the services dealt with the problem it wouldn't of been the grab bag I would be worrying about. I would of had a body bag to worry about though as I would have died from smoke inhalation.
Man can be an amazingly complex, foul, selfish, greedy and yet giving and selfless creature and it is normally in times of adversity that our better sides show through.
Eric I feel sorry for your experience, but that was training, not reality and there are always those who will exploit any given situation they can.
If it had been for real you would still get a few, but for every 1 that tries to exploit the situation there are normally another 50 willing to give them a pasting for it.
The first thing to run through their minds was not "Oh, time to go and grab the grab bag, come on Shep walkies" and off into the night they go. It was more "Oh sh1t, me garden is waist high in sewage effluent and my £700 TV is bobbing up an down next to my DVD player" along with "oh bugger that's cold on my feet."
In reality most people do not know how they will react, there are a number who are trained to react and deal with situations, servicemen and women from fire, ambulance, police and military, but not even all of them could tell me how they will react until the moment is upon them.
I've survived a house fire, if I had gone back to get my grab bag to go off bushcrafting whilst the services dealt with the problem it wouldn't of been the grab bag I would be worrying about. I would of had a body bag to worry about though as I would have died from smoke inhalation.
Man can be an amazingly complex, foul, selfish, greedy and yet giving and selfless creature and it is normally in times of adversity that our better sides show through.
Eric I feel sorry for your experience, but that was training, not reality and there are always those who will exploit any given situation they can.
If it had been for real you would still get a few, but for every 1 that tries to exploit the situation there are normally another 50 willing to give them a pasting for it.
I just think it is shocking that somebody tries to help others out and the whole thing is thrown back in their faces. It actually makes me quite mad that Eric and some others did a dry run with the view of helping others in the event of the Millenium Bug crashing the system, and got nothing but theft and vandalism in payment for their troubles. Sometimes I do wish it would go pear shaped, but the thing is, the thiefs and vandals would probably do just fine as they'd destroy others shelter and nick all of their food causing their deaths !
I think it would be different if the town was desimated by a hurrican or bomboing.
Then its really every man for themself.
Then its really every man for themself.
You and I are both ex forces mate, you know as well as I that you would find a certain amount of these places would have a military contingent, how do you think they would deal with the thieves and vandals. How would you deal with them if you were still in or how would I of dealt with them.
Even now I would protect "Me and Mine" and that includes friends and neighbours.
I dread to think what Martial Law would be like in the UK. If it really went that badly wrong, we would be talking on a global scale, I can see there being curfews, shoot on sight policies with regards to crime and looting, and all sorts of other nasty stuff. Maybe this is why Eric was told there was no contingency plan in place. There probably is, but it wouldn't be worth scaring the general public with the details of what that is!
I think in that situation, it would be worth getting well away from everything and everyone!
I think in that situation, it would be worth getting well away from everything and everyone!
As I'm a member of our local Raynet group,I'd be up at the school helping out with communications.Or in the field somewhere.
Anyway,finding a hill to head for in Norfolk would be problematical.
Anyway,finding a hill to head for in Norfolk would be problematical.
Actually Eric, I don't think you are cycnical at all - just realistic. Peoples nature don't change when they are hungry, cold and stressed. They don't suddenly become angels. The much famed British spirit during the blitz glosses over the robbing, looting, and far more heinous crimes that took place - bombed buildings often had to be guarded or all the property thats wasn't damaged would be stolen. Ask anyone who has worked in disaster relief - all normal human weakness is there - desparate people have a propensity to do not only desparate but horrible things. If I didn't need to subject my family to that environment, then I wouldn't. I would of course help neighbours over the hurdle of an immediate crisis, but risk my own family to help those who cannot be bothered to help themselves. Well, I'll cofound the cynical club with you
Red
Red
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
But they are bothered to help themselves...... to your stuff.
In these situations we would of bugged out as well with others who we know. But the normal flooding we have plans for as we are not counting on ifs but when.
I just don't believe the world is full of scumbags, and you can find diamonds in coal.
I have friends that helped assist people down in and around New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. For many of them, it's not something they would ever do again! Most were in constant fear of physical violence from the people they were trying to help.
Most of the people left needing help were the scum, riff raff, and parasites of society - because the good people had already left or were trying to take care of themselves as best they could. A free ham sandwich and bowl of soup was never good enough - they DEMANDED burgers and fries from a national chain restaurant! They also constantly DEMANDED booze and cigarettes! Very few would even help carry and set up the cots and matresses they would be sleeping on.
And their constant refrain/answer for every question or request was "WE LOST EVERYTHING! WE NEED HELP!" They viewed the people trying to help them as personal servants that were expected to wait on them hand and foot - and then wipe their bumms! Because "WE LOST EVERYTHING!"
There were a lot of good people. The older people and the real little kids were the best, and most appreciative of anything and everything they received. And those good qualities showed throughout certain families. But the scum and riff raff only interested in what they could get for themselves tended to push the others aside and drown out everything outside of their "ME! ME! ME!" attitudes.
My friends described it best by saying it reminded them of the vultures and roving packs of scavenger animals roaming the plains that we see in all the documentaries about life on the Serengeti in Africa. The only thing that kept some in check was the physical presence of police and Natl. Guard troops ready to shoot their parsitic ar$es!
There were a lot of good people down in the areas affected by Katrina, but there were many many more of the bad ones out looking only for what they could get - from anyone who had what they WANTED (not even needed). The good people looked after themselves, and helped where they could. The rest of the trash floated out of their sewers, and got concentrated together for the whole world to see on the TV cameras.
And now they are trying to REBUILD that below sea level, flood waiting to happen, sewer. They've already dumped enough money into the area so that every man-woman-child that had lived there before Katrina could have received a couple hundred thousand dollars each! But little of that has gotten down to the individuals. The first things rebuilt were the gambling casinos/hotels, and the roads/bridges to get to them! The "professional" criminals/parasites have been feeding well at the public trough!
There's an old phrase that applies now, just as it did in the early 1900's, the 1800's, and before - the Deserving Poor. There are way too many people now days, who beleave that "society" OWES them a comfortable living. Most of them are owed nothing more than a lead pill.
So, Eric, I know and have experienced some of what you went through. And I've seen much more over the past few decades. So this ATLAS has SHRUGGED. I will no longer support, nor assist, those parasites on normal society.
Just my humble ramblings/rants on this. Take them as such.
Mikey - already out in the Hinterlands
Most of the people left needing help were the scum, riff raff, and parasites of society - because the good people had already left or were trying to take care of themselves as best they could. A free ham sandwich and bowl of soup was never good enough - they DEMANDED burgers and fries from a national chain restaurant! They also constantly DEMANDED booze and cigarettes! Very few would even help carry and set up the cots and matresses they would be sleeping on.
And their constant refrain/answer for every question or request was "WE LOST EVERYTHING! WE NEED HELP!" They viewed the people trying to help them as personal servants that were expected to wait on them hand and foot - and then wipe their bumms! Because "WE LOST EVERYTHING!"
There were a lot of good people. The older people and the real little kids were the best, and most appreciative of anything and everything they received. And those good qualities showed throughout certain families. But the scum and riff raff only interested in what they could get for themselves tended to push the others aside and drown out everything outside of their "ME! ME! ME!" attitudes.
My friends described it best by saying it reminded them of the vultures and roving packs of scavenger animals roaming the plains that we see in all the documentaries about life on the Serengeti in Africa. The only thing that kept some in check was the physical presence of police and Natl. Guard troops ready to shoot their parsitic ar$es!
There were a lot of good people down in the areas affected by Katrina, but there were many many more of the bad ones out looking only for what they could get - from anyone who had what they WANTED (not even needed). The good people looked after themselves, and helped where they could. The rest of the trash floated out of their sewers, and got concentrated together for the whole world to see on the TV cameras.
And now they are trying to REBUILD that below sea level, flood waiting to happen, sewer. They've already dumped enough money into the area so that every man-woman-child that had lived there before Katrina could have received a couple hundred thousand dollars each! But little of that has gotten down to the individuals. The first things rebuilt were the gambling casinos/hotels, and the roads/bridges to get to them! The "professional" criminals/parasites have been feeding well at the public trough!
There's an old phrase that applies now, just as it did in the early 1900's, the 1800's, and before - the Deserving Poor. There are way too many people now days, who beleave that "society" OWES them a comfortable living. Most of them are owed nothing more than a lead pill.
So, Eric, I know and have experienced some of what you went through. And I've seen much more over the past few decades. So this ATLAS has SHRUGGED. I will no longer support, nor assist, those parasites on normal society.
Just my humble ramblings/rants on this. Take them as such.
Mikey - already out in the Hinterlands
People often think that the Government has no interest in disaster preparedness - I think it is a leftover from the Cold War days, when it simply was not feasible to protect the population from the effects of nuclear war. Thank God that threat has receded.
But there are still many potential threats:
Floods/Severe weather
Pandemic flu - happened before, will happen again
Terrorist dirty bombs/bioweapons/chemical weapons
In many of these cases it is actually far, far better to stay put, and this is the general thrust of the Home Office guide http://www.preparingforemergencies.gov.uk/index.shtm
There have been many preparations made. For example, here on my surgery desk as I type I have a booklet, issued recently by a government agency, to help me recognise diseases such as anthrax or smallpox.
Perhaps because of loony-fringe survivalists, many people seem to regard commonsense preparedness as a waste of time. I don't. The home office advice is to have food and water in case you have to remain in your home for 'several days', plus a torch and a battery (or better still, wind up) radio.
But there are still many potential threats:
Floods/Severe weather
Pandemic flu - happened before, will happen again
Terrorist dirty bombs/bioweapons/chemical weapons
In many of these cases it is actually far, far better to stay put, and this is the general thrust of the Home Office guide http://www.preparingforemergencies.gov.uk/index.shtm
There have been many preparations made. For example, here on my surgery desk as I type I have a booklet, issued recently by a government agency, to help me recognise diseases such as anthrax or smallpox.
Perhaps because of loony-fringe survivalists, many people seem to regard commonsense preparedness as a waste of time. I don't. The home office advice is to have food and water in case you have to remain in your home for 'several days', plus a torch and a battery (or better still, wind up) radio.
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