Do I need Quikclot in my FAK?

[ateallthepies]

I believe Quikclot is quite controversial but maybe this was for the military style granules? For £13 I can get a Quikclot sponge sachet from ebay.

Having no medical training but a fair amount of common sense would this product be a good thing to have in my FAK over a same size sterile gauze pad?

What sort of wound would I use the clotting sponge on? I know that most bleeding is treated by applying pressure. Faced with a person or myself with a deep gash spurting blood, would applying the sponge and pressure be better than pressure alone until professional help arrives?

Thanks,

Steve.

 

[Shewie]

Some good reading here ...

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70693&highlight=quickclot

 

[ateallthepies]

Thanks for that link, just skim read it and come to a conclusion that Clotting agents are not needed in a FAK as pressure on a wound will be the best treatment a novice could provide for most wounds commonly seen and if encountering a rare major trauma what could a 25 gram sachet of clotting sponge achieve?

Will save my £13 me thinks?

Steve.

 

[SimonM]

Thanks for that link, just skim read it and come to a conclusion that Clotting agents are not needed in a FAK as pressure on a wound will be the best treatment a novice could provide for most wounds commonly seen and if encountering a rare major trauma what could a 25 gram sachet of clotting sponge achieve?

Will save my £13 me thinks?

Steve.

Good decision IMHO.

Stick to direct pressure as taught by all the civvy first aid courses I've ever been on.

Imon

 

[sapper326]

To be fair Quikclot was great in a "trauma kit" however it can cause more damage in the hands of an inexperienced user. Stick with the basic in my opinion.

 

[ateallthepies]

Perhaps doing a First Aid course would be a better idea? I did do a simple course at collage during my Electrician training 20 years ago but have forgot everything taught except to make sure to whack someone free if stuck to a live supply with a wooden stick and not a metal one

Steve.

 

[bikething]

I did do a simple course at collage during my Electrician training 20 years ago but have forgot everything taught except to make sure to whack someone free if stuck to a live supply with a wooden stick and not a metal one

I was in the same boat - all I could remember was "pad, pressure, elevate", "A-B-C" and "Nelly the elephant"

(I did do a first aid course last year btw)

 

[BillyBlade]

Im doing a FPoS course soon. It'll be interesting if they even let you use the stuff. No civvy FAC ever even touches it.

 

[Graveworm]

The Sponges (ACS, first response, silver, sport etc) are designed for civvy first aid kits and have less clotting agent than the gauze. They are fairly easy to use but training will tell you when they are indicated; training is always good advice and especially when it comes to using haemostatics it's not in any basic FPoS etc tends to be covered in tactical and remote care courses. Definitely don't use it instead of a similar sized gauze pad as it is for an entirely different use. Direct pressure is best in most circumstances, when it's not quikclot etc is still only used in a small number of circumstances (PHTLS guidance is "Topical hemostatic agents may be used to control hemorrhage occurring in extremity sites not amenable to tourniquet placement and which cannot be controlled by direct pressure alone"). I think you have made the right call.

 

[tedw]

Just done a Wilderness FA course that did recommend Quickclot sachets for remote location trauma care. I'll be getting some.

 

[DocDC]

All those QC and Celox granules stuff is outdated now. Much easier to use is the third generation stuff such as Combat Gauze or Celox Gauze. Remember these products are for the control of ARTERIAL bleeding that can be seen in places that one cannot get good direct pressure or an effective tourniquet, in other words junctional trauma, think armpits, groin or neck, places where limbs attach to the torso. Most other bleeding can be controlled by aggressive direct pressure or with a commercial tourniquet. Notice I say commercial tourniquet and not some improvised TQ made out of wire or paracord, but something designed for the purpose such as CAT, MAT or SOF TQ's. St Johns will have call all this instruments of the devil but the evidence does not support their view and you will find that FPOS now uses C (Catastrophic bleeding), A, B, C, D, E format and talk about the use of TQ's. In all things that involve items of kit, it take training and practice to achieve good results. If you cant do it, wont do it, then do the simple things very well and rest in the knowledge that you did your best. Remember, all bleeding stops, eventually! ! ! !

 

[Mahikan]

Ground up Yarrow is a good alternative many quick clots have it as their base.
Direct pressure has never let me down

 

[wingstoo]

Ground up Yarrow is a good alternative many quick clots have it as their base.
Direct pressure has never let me down

Which is OK if there happens to be some yarrow near you and you know what to do with it when you cut yourself


Also depends on where you are intending to use your FAK, in the wilderness of the UK or the Wilderness of some other country where it really is wilderness and it could be hours or days before they can get to you.

 

[Graveworm]

Ground up Yarrow is a good alternative many quick clots have it as their base.
Direct pressure has never let me down

What do you mean by many quick clots? Quikclot is a trade name, it doesn't have Yarrow in it, the active ingredient is Zeolite the other hemostatic agents I know of are Celox, Hemcon and Chitoflex they all use Chitosan. None as far as I know have Yarrow or any of it's derivatives as their base or in their make up. Yarrow isn't really a clotting agent at all, it's a mild vasoconstrictor or styptic so it's not so good on big bleeds.

 

[Mahikan]

It seems I posted a quick comment that obviously initiated some rapid sure fired, if not rude, responses that I suppose lead me to explain my seemingly ill informed casual post.
Maybe I should have placed a more informed post in the first place, hey ho here it goes now. Hopefully this will educate and placate your curiosity.

Seeing that this is a Bushcraft skills site where when a person mentions that a plant can be used to help you out in the wilderness should, I suppose, lead one to investigate its properties. Considering we all ultimately would like to be able to travel with as few ties to our civilised world as possible, we ought to revel in the fact that nature actually supplies us with many cures to enable our frail human form to survive in its wilder zones.
If you hear of a plant that is useful take time to check it out and learn all you can about it rather than pass flippant comments like, “Which is OK if there happens to be some Yarrow near you and you know what to do with it when you cut yourself.” This is really a comment you could pass on any skill or tool that could assist you, this ultimately highlights the fact you need more dirt time!

This plant is ubiquitous in its nature both in the many eco zones around the world and also in its medicinal use throughout history.
Now of course the point may raise its self that you should not use this plant on a client or other person, you have duty of care of, who may sue you butt off. So justifiably this kind of knowledge should be kept for your own personal survival, or if you are a clinical herbalist you are able to legally act as a practitioner.

I teach courses for different modes of wilderness travel, the Advanced Wilderness First aid courses I teach are up to 10 days long, so I am fully aware of the limitations of skill and or amount of equipment we should carry. Within this skill set I do not teach plant medicine as I edify that a person should be carrying a suitable conventional First Aid/Medical Kit for the planned trip.

For my personal safety, and planning for those times when the preverbal **** could hit the fan, I have taken time to learn about everything ‘out there’ that could save my life. I personally have used Yarrow (Achillea Millefolium) on many occasions.

My reference to quick clots and yarrow was in the general historical vane, so I apologise if anyone out there happens to be a staff member of that trade name selling quick clot.
Now of course you will know that the trade named product ‘quik clot’ actually consists mainly of kaolin, or synthetic derivatives from volcanic rock (Zeolite being one) calcium based products.

Back to Yarrow; it is sometimes, in the herbal world, referred to as nature’s ‘quick clot.’
Brief History
Millefolium is from the Latin meaning thousand- leafed.
Achillea from either the warrior Achilles or new theories suggest the Greek doctor who recorded its medicinal uses.
Yarrow – is believed to have come from either Dutch or German or possibly Anglo Saxon ‘Gearwe,’ meaning “to repair,” or prepair.
I have references to this plant from the Swiss, German, Scots, English, Brazilian, Chinese, Greek, and Iranian peoples.
In North America many tribes reference this plant and to name them all would take a book in its self, however one tribe that I work closely with the Cree people call this plant Wapanew – Uskew (“bee plant&#8221.

Medicinals
This plant contains 149-recorded Constituents such as achilleine, numerous sesquiterpene lactones (anti septic, anti bacterial, anti-inflammatory), achillin, estafiatin, leucomisin, artecian and so on.........
The chemical profiles of this plant have been tested and agreed upon by many science labs.

Achillean is a nerve relaxant with an affinity to the heart, and in combination Yarrow is useful for treating high blood pressure. Achillein also increases the ability of the blood to clot 60% more efficiently than calcium chloride, often used in allopathic medicine. (et al Professor Robert Dale Rodgers page 120 ‘Roberts Herbal Manual’ ISBN 1-894453-22-0)

Here let me remind you that many of the products in quikclot are calcium based probably as it is easy to come by, incidentally calcium is used in many other products such as toothpaste and talcum powder.

Hopefully this small piece has passed on some interesting facts to you.

 

[Cliv]

Nice One

 

[Graveworm]

I was not trying to be rude. I was trying to find out where this came from as I couldn't find anything about it, and a poisons warning for yarrow is that in large quantities it inhibits clotting which is why I was worried.
We may have a different view as to what is a fact.
As for MR Rodgers (No sign of him being elevated to a professorship just yet) Calcium Chloride as a topical clotting agent hasn't been used since the war, that's the Great War. And if I understand correctly from the "literature" I have been able to find this is not a topical use of achilleine (No idea what this actually is as I can't find any formula for it but an Alkaloid is not usually a clotting agent) but an oral use which might take a while to work for someone who is bleeding out. I have to bow to Dara O'Brien who I do feel a kinship with as we studied the same subject at university and we both now have to live with a Dr.
'Oh, herbal medicine's been around for thousands of years!' Indeed it has, and then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became 'medicine', and the rest of it is just a nice bowl of soup and some potpourri, so knock yourselves out.

I can't find any peer reviewed work on Yarrow stopping exsanguinating bleeding or even anyone suggesting it for that so I think to suggest it's nature's quick clot may be stretching it a bit.

 

[wingstoo]

Wind it in a bit pal, you made a two liner comment, I responded, don't like it, then learn to be a bit more tolerant.

I go a lot of places, but if I cut myself I get out the first aid kit, because it is what I know, having been trained in First Aid, I am not a herbalist, and if I am bleeding heavily I will not go wandering around hoping that I can find a bit of yarrow to prep for my wound.

If you want to go and play in the woods with a bag of sharps and no first aid kit belonging to our modern world you carry on, I really don't care for such behaviour.

Now where is that ignore list, I think I will add you to it.

 

[copper_head]

Wow what is it about Quickclot threads? Maybe forum rules should be no religion, politics or haemostatics

 

[Mahikan]

Sorry I did not want to offend anyone but wanted merely to ensure I got some facts straight. I hope it did not offend anyone? Which is a rhetorical question because it appears I have by being placed on ‘an ignore list.’ However rest assured I will learn to be every bit as tolerant as those people who reply to me.
My intention is to educate not alienate!
I honestly thought their would be an interest in the use of Yarrow, heck I had better not even mention that the US army is checking out its properties as a bug repellant, because mosquitoes are now ignoring DEET. Another of its many traditional uses.

I always tell people to carry a first aid kit, which I believe I mentioned above, and to that point I always carry one (a large kit at that) it is my first point of contact in a FA situation. There was no reference to me not carrying one indeed my reference to yarrow was for the **** hits the fan situation which I also mentioned above. Our conventional FA training is what we always rely on first.

But what happens when we run out of First Aid supplies or do not have the knowledge to deal with a situation in the wilderness? Nobody has answered that!

In my reference to Robert Rogers (Name definitely miss spelt above in my excitement!) check out http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Dale-Rogers/e/B0050OUBV4 there are a few of his books mentioned here all outstanding stuff.
My reference to calcium chloride in Roberts article was to draw a comparison with the calcium like products found in quikclot. Although of course zeolite, found in quikclot, is a mineral that forms where volcanic rocks and ash layers react with alkaline water, still a geologic process not sedimentary as in limestone but rather more Karst like with its chemically influenced igneous rock.
Chitosan, found in most other products, is made from ground up sea shells that would ultimately in several million years end up being limestone. Many of these products have a secondary use in various industries such as construction, food, and of course medical.

Calcium Chloride a limestone bi product is actually still used in various forms medically, and in the world of food, and construction, and did not disappear, as suggested, at the end of the First World War. Check out one of the many websites that refer to it, one of them being http://www.ehow.com/about_5280658_common-uses-calcium-chloride.html

It is strange that people will debate the use of plants with some disgust, and ridicule, when someone would consider using them, But would then wholly embrace, without question, the use of modern haemostatic products made from rocks, minerals or shells of sea creatures.
We all of course are rightly influenced by modern medicine; it saves lives and enables us to carry recognised easy to use life saving products. But there seems to be a block and refusal to delve deep enough to investigate the research done in traditional skills and knowledge.

Dr Auerbach, an expert in wilderness first aid, in the light of recent tests has even questioned whether haemostatic dressings are more effective than just using a gauze wound dressing bandage, when used correctly with direct pressure and application.

Myself and to make this most clear; I would be open to all of the life saving advantages they could offer.
Moving in sequence through my carried FAK and updated knowledge, including direct pressure on a wound, progressing from modern skills to ultimately primitive using knowledge I have sequestered to ensure I survive.
But the question still remains what do you do when in you are the wilderness and you have no modern supplies because it all goes horribly wrong, for whatever reason. This essentially drives us to the very roots of Bushcraft/Survival.

If you lose your matches, or spark rod, do you not use plants to make friction fire?
If you lose your tents do you not use plants to make a shelter?If you lose your food do you not use plants to eat, make weapons or traps?

If you have an injured person who needs evacuating can you not make a stretcher from trees?
If you lose your medical kit and are ill or wounded do you curl up and die because you ran out of modern equipment or supplies? Or do you gain the skills and knowledge as you do in fire lighting, shelters and food to live on and thrive?