Disability and behavior of members

[MartinK9]

If someone staggers, 1/2 full of whisky and loud of voice, into my bivi area in the early hours (when children were [blessedly] still asleep) when I was enjoying the peace and quiet with my first coffee of the day and revelling inmental solitude, merely to let me know that they have yet to get to bed....then I will, as I did, tell them to "F off" in no uncertain terms (including why they should)!
I am showing no prejudice or discriminatrory behaviour here - developmental disorder or none they would get the same treatment.

Good to hear the other half of the story.......

 

[tobes01]

Well said John. A p*ssed up idiot is a p*ssed up idiot regardless of their background or ability, and should expect to be treated as such. I've been shouted at more than once in such situations, and have yet to be diagnosed with anything more severe than being a bl**dy fool.

Tobes

 

[firecrest]

I didn't mean you in the example given john! Yes indeed if somebody is out of order tell them, and I know Drew would agree, infact most people with ASD want to be told where they are out of order so it can be brought to our attention.
Im talking about when the recipricating behavior carries on beyond the moment, so that any normal attempts to begin a conversation are met with swearing.
And yes - ragging and joking at someone is a great think, but it does have a limit and sometimes it isnt done in jest.
Anyway I don't want new comers to have a bad feeling about the moot, like I said its no different from normal society and a good time was had by all regardless. It doesnt mean normal society has it right though, it used to be normal to be racist and homophobic.

 

[deenewcastle]

I wasn't at the Moot, or previous ones, so also have no knowledge of the events alluded to by Firecrest. I am a now psychiatric nurse by choice, and currently work in an addictions service, so I see people who are unwell, as well as some who display challenging behaviours on a daily basis. I have previously worked in general psychiatry, and learning disabilities, so have some experience of the concerns addressed by Firecrest in her posts. That said, I have to agree with the sentiments expressed by John in his post above. If someone came to me in the circumstances described by him I would have responded in exactly the same way. Whilst both prejudice and bullying are totally unacceptable, period, so is anti-social behaviour. I agree with Firecrest that people with learning disabilities, or developmental disorders as she terms it, should not be treated with disrespect, held to have lesser value, or become targets of amusement, I'm not sure that I so readily agree with the distinction inferred between people with development disorders and those experiencing mental ill health In fact, I'm not even sure there needs to be any distinction. Unfortunately though, and this may go some way to ascribe people's lack of awareness of behavioural issues with these individuals, is that in the current climate it has become all too common to give a diagnosis of 'mental ill health' or 'developmental disorder' to so many who's only problem is that they have been allowed to grow up, or develop, without any form of social boundaries and a complete lack of being held responsible for their actions. Sorry, Firecrest, I do agree with what you are trying to achieve here, but I'm not sure that your assertion about 'BCUK being an organisation with more than12 members' makes BCUK responsible in any way for any bullying which took place. BCUK, to my knowledge, is only an internet based social forum, and therefore is not an 'organisation' as defined or intended at law for cases of discrimination, or bullying.

 

[Blades]

"The same said person was struck over the head with the butt of an axe in the dark at another meet"

:S Blimey. In the photos it seems as though there was a lot of kids there, I wouldn't fancied taking my kids to somewhere that someone was assaulted with an axe previously ...

 

[firecrest]

I wasn't at the Moot, or previous ones, so also have no knowledge of the events alluded to by Firecrest. I am a now psychiatric nurse by choice, and currently work in an addictions service, so I see people who are unwell, as well as some who display challenging behaviours on a daily basis. I have previously worked in general psychiatry, and learning disabilities, so have some experience of the concerns addressed by Firecrest in her posts. That said, I have to agree with the sentiments expressed by John in his post above. If someone came to me in the circumstances described by him I would have responded in exactly the same way. Whilst both prejudice and bullying are totally unacceptable, period, so is anti-social behaviour. I agree with Firecrest that people with learning disabilities, or developmental disorders as she terms it, should not be treated with disrespect, held to have lesser value, or become targets of amusement, I'm not sure that I so readily agree with the distinction inferred between people with development disorders and those experiencing mental ill health In fact, I'm not even sure there needs to be any distinction. Unfortunately though, and this may go some way to ascribe people's lack of awareness of behavioural issues with these individuals, is that in the current climate it has become all too common to give a diagnosis of 'mental ill health' or 'developmental disorder' to so many who's only problem is that they have been allowed to grow up, or develop, without any form of social boundaries and a complete lack of being held responsible for their actions. Sorry, Firecrest, I do agree with what you are trying to achieve here, but I'm not sure that your assertion about 'BCUK being an organisation with more than12 members' makes BCUK responsible in any way for any bullying which took place. BCUK, to my knowledge, is only an internet based social forum, and therefore is not an 'organisation' as defined or intended at law for cases of discrimination, or bullying.

No, no, I have not stated anywhere that BCUK is responsible. they are not, this is why this post is to address members and talk about behavior, not bcuk, because members perpotrate behavior not organisers. Where bcuk possibly has a legal implication is adhering to disability discrimination law. ie - not to simply turn a blind eye.

The distinction between developmental disorders and mental health is not my distinction but the world wide accepted opinion, and it is correct.

 

[firecrest]

"The same said person was struck over the head with the butt of an axe in the dark at another meet"

:S Blimey. In the photos it seems as though there was a lot of kids there, I wouldn't fancied taking my kids to somewhere that someone was assaulted with an axe previously ...

It wasn't the same place. please don't worry about the children, nobody would do that to a kid.

 

[drewdunnrespect]

hole hartedly agree with you linz and as john said i did go and say sorry cos it was the right thing to do.

 

[firecrest]

hole hartedly agree with you linz and as john said i did go and say sorry cos it was the right thing to do.

Sometimes you're add/asd/ds or whatever, sometimes youre a drunken nob (I know I am!) I wasnt just totally referring to you in this thread, but its ended up that way, hope you don't mind Drew.

 

[drewdunnrespect]

no course i dont mate if it helps us explian our situation (spelling) and get across the point of what your trying to say

 

[firecrest]

cheers Drew. Like Ive said before to you, I have a lot of the same problems but have dealt with them differently. I withdrew from socializing when people didnt understand me, so its great you can just let negativity of some bounce off you as I never did. Im not hyperactive, except in short bursts, I regulate how I feel by walking long distances and painting, which I put a very intense part of myself into. I also...probably...have tourettes or something similar, I tic, but this has been on the wane for about a year and a half (tics can come and go over a period of years) I can also surpress them for long periods of time.
Not sure if you have experienced tics or not, but I used to sqeak, yelp, blink , click my tongue, clap, have head spasms and whole body twists, coupled with the odd shouting of swear words. If I tried to supresss them it bred new ones, I learned instead to channel them into inpercepterbal tics like frowning or humming. perhaps in which case I do actually have an excess of energy though its hard for me to claim that when I sleep so much!

 

[stooboy]

As BCUK is an organisation with more than 12 members it has a responsibility to read up and recognise both disability and the disability discrimination act. The same said person was struck over the head with the butt of an axe in the dark at another meet, - a criminal offense he could sue for, yet that went unreprimanded by all present.

I'm not sure that your assertion about 'BCUK being an organisation with more than12 members' makes BCUK responsible in any way for any bullying which took place. BCUK, to my knowledge, is only an internet based social forum, and therefore is not an 'organisation' as defined or intended at law for cases of discrimination, or bullying.

No, no, I have not stated anywhere that BCUK is responsible. they are not, this is why this post is to address members and talk about behavior,

I read your original post as dee did,

 

[BorderReiver]

This is a very difficult area to deal with.

How does the average person tell if the annoying yob that's giving them grief has a genuine problem or is just a tit?

We can't go round with labels stuck to our foreheads saying "No offence meant; I have X"

I would find it difficult to be civil to someone behaving like a dick head if I was unaware that they had a behavioural problem.

Some advice on how to deal with that sort of situation would be appreciated.

 

[firecrest]

I read your original post as dee did,

Im saying that bcuk is not responsible for individual members behavior, but failure to repremand or halt behavior at meets can make it their problem in future.

 

[smoggy]

I think I may have been a little unclear earlier, probably because I didn't think I needed to be specific.......(see how difficult this "area" can be to deal with even for those who have a modecum of knowledge!).......when I stated my working environment to be within the Probation and Mental Ill Health area.

I'll therefore elaborate..........I teach, literacy, numeracy and ICT to the following...........
Convicted and recurent offenders.
Short term and permanent Mental Ill Health sufferers.
and those with Learing Disabilities.

I teach from children to pensioners in the community and within partner services.

As you can imagine, things are never "black and white" and as often as not any one of the areas above may overlap into the next and indead some learners could be included in all three sections.

I've been working in the area now for over 10yrs, and my role does not stop at teaching, often I'm a friend and advisor and in some cases more trusted than the medical staff or learners own family! Now, if I continue working in the areas above then in 100yrs I may know "something". So it is not surprising that the average person in the street is ignorant of "others problems" which are in fact their own problem.

It really isn't practicle to offer a full synopsis on any one disorder and expect that most will read, digest and understand. What Joe Public needs is educated guidance, in an easily digested form.........ie, people with learning disabilities may tend to but into conversations at an inappropriate moment, and how one may best react and what not to do.

As has been stated above, antisocial behaviour is out of order regardless of any associated problem, and indead I often find that those who fall into some of the catagories we've mentioned in the above post are less tolerant of others who may have a different disability or problem/condition......ie, the Blind or Deaf

I don't expect any one individual to be an expert in all area's here but offering practical help in the area one is an expert in is probably the way to go. Tips on the specifics of behavour are probably going to be more effective than in depth analasys.

This is probably one of the most worthwhile threads I've partaken of in a very long time.

Smoggy.

 

[firecrest]

This is a very difficult area to deal with.

How does the average person tell if the annoying yob that's giving them grief has a genuine problem or is just a tit?

We can't go round with labels stuck to our foreheads saying "No offence meant; I have X"

I would find it difficult to be civil to someone behaving like a dick head if I was unaware that they had a behavioural problem.

Some advice on how to deal with that sort of situation would be appreciated.

We have to meet half way. Your annoying behavior is as annoying to us as ours is to you. You have neurotypicality syndrome
This is charactised by a preoccuppation with pointless social ritual
swarming behavior
dellusion of superioty
lower average IQ
Intollerance to seemingly minor neurological difference.

Look at the language in your post "yob" and "dick" the assumption being that people with ASD behave like this. we do not behave like yobs or dicks any more than the general population, infact people with ASD are LESS likely to commit a crime (despite how the media sensationalises these things) we are more likely to go to university, at least 4 nobel peace prize winners are officially diagnosed and most of the inventions throughout history had somebody at the helm who's behaviour sugests an ASD.
On the subject of those of us who's behavior may actually be yobbery and how to make the distinction between that and somebody who appears annoying because of their disability - its usually quite easy to tell the difference.
Yobs tend to do things for social acceptance therfor, only present in some company and not others. in ASD the behavior is likely to persist at all times of the day and night due to being unaware others find their way of life unacceptable. When it is done to gain social acceptance, its usually OTT, and always seems to be done with a misinterpretation of the acceptable norm.

 

[firecrest]

I think I may have been a little unclear earlier, probably because I didn't think I needed to be specific.......(see how difficult this "area" can be to deal with even for those who have a modecum of knowledge!).......when I stated my working environment to be within the Probation and Mental Ill Health area.

I'll therefore elaborate..........I teach, literacy, numeracy and ICT to the following...........
Convicted and recurent offenders.
Short term and permanent Mental Ill Health sufferers.
and those with Learing Disabilities.

I teach from children to pensioners in the community and within partner services.

As you can imagine, things are never "black and white" and as often as not any one of the areas above may overlap into the next and indead some learners could be included in all three sections.

I've been working in the area now for over 10yrs, and my role does not stop at teaching, often I'm a friend and advisor and in some cases more trusted than the medical staff or learners own family! Now, if I continue working in the areas above then in 100yrs I may know "something". So it is not surprising that the average person in the street is ignorant of "others problems" which are in fact their own problem.

It really isn't practicle to offer a full synopsis on any one disorder and expect that most will read, digest and understand. What Joe Public needs is educated guidance, in an easily digested form.........ie, people with learning disabilities may tend to but into conversations at an inappropriate moment, and how one may best react and what not to do.

As has been stated above, antisocial behaviour is out of order regardless of any associated problem, and indead I often find that those who fall into some of the catagories we've mentioned in the above post are less tolerant of others who may have a different disability or problem/condition......ie, the Blind or Deaf

I don't expect any one individual to be an expert in all area's here but offering practical help in the area one is an expert in is probably the way to go. Tips on the specifics of behavour are probably going to be more effective than in depth analasys.

This is probably one of the most worthwhile threads I've partaken of in a very long time.

Smoggy.

Thanks Smoggy, nice to see lots of people understand what Im getting at - to go back to my original reason for posting, to just reiterate that to people -
I am simply saying that many behaviors of different individuals at meets and moots are because of disability and they need to show a little more tollerance to that.

Im also saying sometimes it isn't caused by disability or even if it is caused by disability, it may be unacceptable. This needs to be addressed.

But att no point does it make retaliation acceptable where it goes outside of normal fireside ragging and the law.

I have seen and heard enough to have made this post. much as I enjoy joining in the odd flame war, I do not like starting them, as I knew full well raising this issue may make me very unpopular with some members. I figured at somepoint some people would take that to mean I am saying people of different neurological wiring should be allowed to do what they want or that its all just excuses for bad behaviour ect ect..
So its nice to see people like yourself, smoggy who are in the know and get what I am trying to get at.

 

[BorderReiver]

We have to meet half way. Your annoying behavior is as annoying to us as ours is to you. You have neurotypicality syndrome
This is charactised by a preoccuppation with pointless social ritual
swarming behavior
dellusion of superioty
lower average IQ
Intollerance to seemingly minor neurological difference.

Look at the language in your post "yob" and "dick" the assumption being that people with ASD behave like this. we do not behave like yobs or dicks any more than the general population, infact people with ASD are LESS likely to commit a crime (despite how the media sensationalises these things) we are more likely to go to university, at least 4 nobel peace prize winners are officially diagnosed and most of the inventions throughout history had somebody at the helm who's behaviour sugests an ASD.
On the subject of those of us who's behavior may actually be yobbery and how to make the distinction between that and somebody who appears annoying because of their disability - its usually quite easy to tell the difference.
Yobs tend to do things for social acceptance therfor, only present in some company and not others. in ASD the behavior is likely to persist at all times of the day and night due to being unaware others find their way of life unacceptable. When it is done to gain social acceptance, its usually OTT, and always seems to be done with a misinterpretation of the acceptable norm.

No assumption made. I do not know how people with ASD behave; that was rather the point of my post.

I have never knowingly come across a person with ASD and "its usually quite easy to tell the difference" is fine if you know what you are looking for.

 

[smoggy]

Mike, has offered a prime example of that to which I've been eluding........

He has no idea he is commiting a faux par, therefore is unable to amend his behaviour.....and to some extent we are, or have all been, in the same boat at some time or other. What Mike, and the rest of us require is education to promote understanding.......that's all of us regardless.

Firecrest, I'm only as enlightened as I am because I have been "exposed" in my working environment, much more than I ever would have been in my dayly life..........and I still make mistakes and I am still learning......no different to anyone else, just a bit more experience to draw from....

A note on banter and ribbing ( urine extraction )
It's part of everyday life and as such includes individuals into a community, provided it is moderated and not constantly aimed at anyone individual. Again it must be adjusted to the individuals involved.........you wouldn't rib a child in the same way you would an adult! Nor would one do the same to a stranger than to someone you have been friends with your whole life.
It is a gradual process of social induction and should be excersided at appropriate levels just the same as anything else. But it should always be a give and take scenario. Not everyone seems to understand that, so it's up to the rest of us to help them.

Smoggy.

 

[firecrest]

Ok borderreiver, i see what you mean, sorry about that.
developmental disability means a slower rate of hitting social developmental milestones. someone with this kind of social dysfunction learns to socialize at at a slower rate, sometimes a much slower rate. This isnt inline with the rest of their abilities, they may have a developed their intelligence way beyond their chronological age but their ability to socialise is on a par with a much lower age group. Thus someone in their twenties with a ASD may behave socially more like somebody much younger. by middle age with some people that becomes an asset. a 20 year old who acts like a 12 year old can be hard to cope with. but a 40 year old who behaves about 20 can have lots of friends.
I found a couple of youtube videos on a lad with AS, the way he is is much closer to how I was (am) than to Drew or anyone else I know. I guess you also have to remember co-morbid conditions like adhd and alike coupled with character, Ive never met two people alike, hope these links can help explain some processes.

ps - you will have met many people with ASD you just don't know!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_PBVxGEEY4