So you would not be allowed to carry an SAK in your pocket then, or a Stanley knife in a toolbag?
Carrying an Axe/Knife and the Law
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So you would not be allowed to carry an SAK in your pocket then, or a Stanley knife in a toolbag?
LLoyd, those kids mother's don't work 
they get benefits.
We don't do the two jobs to survive thing.....family income supplement or suchlike helps out if they work a set amount a week.
Fathers are rarely on the scene, and if he was and lifted a hand to the brat, the brat would report him to the police and get him lifted for assault. Not allowed to hit a child here.
Those brats are like that because their peer group is like that. They are a boil on the backside of the city in some areas, but the vast majority of youths would never behave that way. Those who do are the minority.
It's been this way since my childhood, and even then, when there were no benefits such as those available now, there were always the few who behaved like those you describe. Generally very much impoverished though.
Beaten up for wrong top ? I have no idea. Truthfully, I'd have said more likely beaten to steal a wanted one
I have no idea what you are talking about the middle of the playground stuff ??
Most of the trouble comes from the mix that BR talked about; drink and aggro. The intent is simply to break the connection between aggro and having knives available.
You are getting way too het up about this. It's not bothering us near as much as it seems to be vexing you, and we live here.
As I said, for the majority it's a total non issue.
Toddy
they get benefits. We don't do the two jobs to survive thing.....family income supplement or suchlike helps out if they work a set amount a week.
Fathers are rarely on the scene, and if he was and lifted a hand to the brat, the brat would report him to the police and get him lifted for assault. Not allowed to hit a child here.
Those brats are like that because their peer group is like that. They are a boil on the backside of the city in some areas, but the vast majority of youths would never behave that way. Those who do are the minority.
It's been this way since my childhood, and even then, when there were no benefits such as those available now, there were always the few who behaved like those you describe. Generally very much impoverished though.
Beaten up for wrong top ? I have no idea. Truthfully, I'd have said more likely beaten to steal a wanted one
I have no idea what you are talking about the middle of the playground stuff ??
Most of the trouble comes from the mix that BR talked about; drink and aggro. The intent is simply to break the connection between aggro and having knives available.
You are getting way too het up about this. It's not bothering us near as much as it seems to be vexing you, and we live here.
As I said, for the majority it's a total non issue.
Toddy
Not sure what a SAK is? but anything in a tool bag would be fine.
Basically if you define a coffee cup as a weapon, they can seize it. So, in Canadian law. If you say it is a tool it is a tool, if you say it is for self defense you have identified it as a weapon and it is now possible but improbably that they could seize it. If you use anything (a pen) for a weapon you will be charged with a weapon offense. If you took the pen from your pocket then it was then a concealed weapon to boot.
You can carry a pocket knife or a belt knife and no one will care. With the pocket knife, while any police officer "could" charge you with concealed weapon if he wanted to be a jerk, no crown prosecutor will ever take it to court. The only reason you would get charged with that was to add it to another crime such as assault with a weapon. It is really only brought out to build a case. In the Criminal code of Canada it states repeatedly that a peace officer "MAY" charge an individual but it does not say that he must.
That said; I have had police officers ask me some questions. I got stopped going to martial arts class with a sword. Police officer did not even get out of the car; "Where are you going with that?" he said.
"Kendo class..."
"No problem then, "
Another time at a Halloween street party, I was in full Viking attire with sword. There were 8 police officers at the street party and one commented on how he liked my costume. They are not concerned with the 3 foot long knife they can see you are obviously not using. They are concerned with what they cannot see.
Every single police officer in Canada is armed with a 9mm or .40Cal side arm however and can address threats to self at range so they do not fear the public. Mind you, I am not your average young tough and if I wore my hat sideways and dressed like a gangsta' wanna be then my interactions with law enforcement would be less cordial. I also do not live on Vancouver's east side or downtown Toronto where there are more problems. Where I live is almost exactly like rural Scotland except we have more trees and no castles.
Basically if you define a coffee cup as a weapon, they can seize it. So, in Canadian law. If you say it is a tool it is a tool, if you say it is for self defense you have identified it as a weapon and it is now possible but improbably that they could seize it. If you use anything (a pen) for a weapon you will be charged with a weapon offense. If you took the pen from your pocket then it was then a concealed weapon to boot.
You can carry a pocket knife or a belt knife and no one will care. With the pocket knife, while any police officer "could" charge you with concealed weapon if he wanted to be a jerk, no crown prosecutor will ever take it to court. The only reason you would get charged with that was to add it to another crime such as assault with a weapon. It is really only brought out to build a case. In the Criminal code of Canada it states repeatedly that a peace officer "MAY" charge an individual but it does not say that he must.
That said; I have had police officers ask me some questions. I got stopped going to martial arts class with a sword. Police officer did not even get out of the car; "Where are you going with that?" he said.
"Kendo class..."
"No problem then, "
Another time at a Halloween street party, I was in full Viking attire with sword. There were 8 police officers at the street party and one commented on how he liked my costume. They are not concerned with the 3 foot long knife they can see you are obviously not using. They are concerned with what they cannot see.
Every single police officer in Canada is armed with a 9mm or .40Cal side arm however and can address threats to self at range so they do not fear the public. Mind you, I am not your average young tough and if I wore my hat sideways and dressed like a gangsta' wanna be then my interactions with law enforcement would be less cordial. I also do not live on Vancouver's east side or downtown Toronto where there are more problems. Where I live is almost exactly like rural Scotland except we have more trees and no castles.
What you are referring to is not a change in the law but guidance as to the level at which cases will be prosecuted. In Scotland we have 2 broad levels of prosecution, summary - where the maximum sentence is 12 months imprisonment, and solemn - where the maximum sentence is 5 years on Sheriff & Jury indictment, or life if High Court indictment. The examples you refer to are what are now considered to be aggravating factors to raise a crime from summary to solemn level. The pertinent law remains Sections 47 and 49 of the Criminal Law ( Consolidation ) Scotland Act 1995.
47 relates to offensive weapons, being either items defined as offensive weapons in themselves or items adapted for use or intended for use as weapons. 49 relates to bladed or pointed items, excluding folding pocket knives of 3 inches or less in blade, and allows a reasonable excuse defence although prosecutions are continually made to attack reasonable excuse defences. 49 is just bad law - what is a pointed item? A pen, pencil, tie pin or my hand in ippon nukite?
Also - we don't have cautions in Scotland and policy is , that if you are charged for possession of a knife, you WILL be kept in custody for the next available court, irrespective of not having any convictions.
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Actually I was enjoying the discussion and it was not registering on an emotional level at all. I am a student of a lot of things but have done a lot of work professionally and academically in the criminology field which fascinates me. It was not my intent to be offensive or provocative but I have learned over the years that forum text is not a great medium through which to try and communicate complex thoughts and ideas.
For the most part people do not understand the criminal mind because they lack the empathy to walk a mile in their shoes. A common mistake is to believe that other people think like we do or had our opportunities in life. So while arrest and a criminal record may be a deterrent for you and me prompting us to leave our $100 knife at home when we take the train, to the inner city kid it is the price of doing business and accepted. The coppers seized my knife but I can always steal another one.
It may be a non issue, but it is a non issue that does not prevent or solve a single crime. Crimes apparently I have been guilty of on my last few trips to the UK.
Not sure I agree with you Mary. Lots of people are fed up with one law for the law abiding - and none for the criminals
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/misc/law_result_20040101.shtml
The result of a poll of the legal change people would most like to see?
We live in different countries - with differing views. In my, far more populated country, people are fed up with laws that impact the law abiding and excuse the criminals.
I believe the tide is chaniging and most people would prefer the pendulum to swing back towards rights for the law abiding and less towards trying to keep thugs from being thugs.
Radio 4 isn't the best indicator BR. Radio Clyde, Radio Forth.....etc., etc.,
I didn't know that the cautions weren't applicable here, Brambles. So what do the police issue? a warning ? I know someone who was stopped, acknowledged that they were carrying a knife, and had the knife confiscated to be collected from the station once the police had had words with their superiors/PFS ? They got it back too.
I work in parts of the city where youths such as those you describe are commonplace, Lloyd. I also work all over the country at times and almost none of that behaviour is apparant. Rough bits everywhere though. Move the children from the better areas into the rough, and they change. It's kind of pathetic, and it needs to be addressed. Meanwhile the knives still crop up
I got so that I could even tell what kind of knife had caused a particular scar, or screwdriver, glass, whatever
Again, those people are in the minority in our country.
Two of the groups I work with at times deal with those who are in some way socially excluded, whether from imprisonment, ill health, recovering alcoholic or drug addiction. The man who brought me lunch last time spent time in the cage at Peterhead for murder. Nice chap sat and blethered, excellent craftsman.....the youth who murdered isn't the same man thirty years later. The other fellow's still dead right enough, but it's the living that we live alongside, interact with, not the dearly departed, iimmc. He says he was just a daft wee laddie when he killed the other.....with a knife.
However, this is old news. For the present advice for the OP on carrying knives and axes on public transport is the request.
With care, is I suspect, the best answer
cheers,
M
I didn't know that the cautions weren't applicable here, Brambles. So what do the police issue? a warning ? I know someone who was stopped, acknowledged that they were carrying a knife, and had the knife confiscated to be collected from the station once the police had had words with their superiors/PFS ? They got it back too.
I work in parts of the city where youths such as those you describe are commonplace, Lloyd. I also work all over the country at times and almost none of that behaviour is apparant. Rough bits everywhere though. Move the children from the better areas into the rough, and they change. It's kind of pathetic, and it needs to be addressed. Meanwhile the knives still crop up
I got so that I could even tell what kind of knife had caused a particular scar, or screwdriver, glass, whatever
Again, those people are in the minority in our country.
Two of the groups I work with at times deal with those who are in some way socially excluded, whether from imprisonment, ill health, recovering alcoholic or drug addiction. The man who brought me lunch last time spent time in the cage at Peterhead for murder. Nice chap
sat and blethered, excellent craftsman.....the youth who murdered isn't the same man thirty years later. The other fellow's still dead right enough, but it's the living that we live alongside, interact with, not the dearly departed, iimmc. He says he was just a daft wee laddie when he killed the other.....with a knife.However, this is old news. For the present advice for the OP on carrying knives and axes on public transport is the request.
With care, is I suspect, the best answer
cheers,
M
SAK is Swiss Army Knife.
Yeah, its pretty much the same here. Self defence isn't a valid reason to carry anything. Anything intended or marketed as a weapon is illegal.
As for police having discretion, I think they are under pressure to charge in some forces (in urban areas etc), it seems.
In a Scots case which similarly might result in a caution being issued in England, the police send a report to the Fiscal who might send a warning letter. This is different from an English caution as it does not form part of any record. There is now widespread use of fixed penalties both by police and fiscals, all driven by the need to falsely reduce the crime rate, but these would never be issued for possession of a knife or offensive weapon, as policy is to prosecute such charges to the ends of the earth, along with domestic abuse aggravated offences and racially aggravated offences.
I'll take a national radio station - hardly renowned for being a hotbed of reactionary zeal - but rather an intelligent talk radio staion for moderate, thinking people, over tiny, local radio stations as a view of what the majority of UK citizens want - I would like to see the links please to the similar polls conducted by those stations though- you seem to have missed those out of your reply Mary - an oversight I am sure. Do feel free to add them
How about 30,000 people signed the petition for the carry a knife go to jail ?
Those stations aren't small, not up here, where the issue is being debated.
Radio 4 might be fun, but like broadsheets, have no where near the readers/listeners of the tabloids/locals.
Which is actually more representative ?
Ah well, that depends on your taste I suppose
Personally the accents, and opinions, on Radio4 often set my teeth on edge but I could be biased
cheers,
M
Those stations aren't small, not up here, where the issue is being debated.
Radio 4 might be fun, but like broadsheets, have no where near the readers/listeners of the tabloids/locals.
Which is actually more representative ?
Ah well, that depends on your taste I suppose
Personally the accents, and opinions, on Radio4 often set my teeth on edge
but I could be biased cheers,
M
You are allowed to lawfully possess the items and to use them for appropriate purposes, the use of tools in the correct context and transporting them to and from the site of use, is a reasonable excuse for having them in a public place. It is best to have the like of axes and knives hidden inside packs to avoid the sort of hysteria now prevalent that was missing when as a kid I used to wander around with a sheath knife on my belt - country childhood I guess. If however, you were to stop off at the pub on the way home, and still have them you may be in trouble as you would be deemed to have deviated from the purpose of transporting them directly from A to B. For example I have wandered about quite happily with ice axes strapped to the outside of a rucksack when going climbing but I would'nt take one down to the pub with me!
As far as being stopped is concerned, the police still have to have reasonable grounds to search anyone but unfortunately most police remain woefully ignorant of the actual law , and take briefings and superiors policy instructions as being "the law" and prefer to "shoot first and ask questions later" when it comes to certain things.
As far as being stopped is concerned, the police still have to have reasonable grounds to search anyone but unfortunately most police remain woefully ignorant of the actual law , and take briefings and superiors policy instructions as being "the law" and prefer to "shoot first and ask questions later" when it comes to certain things.
Forgot the link
http://www.rajar.co.uk/listening/quarterly_listening.php
Radio 4 is well below the others available in Scotland. Tay alone beats it.
atb,
Mary
http://www.rajar.co.uk/listening/quarterly_listening.php
Radio 4 is well below the others available in Scotland. Tay alone beats it.
atb,
Mary
Thank you brambles, pretty much as we thought then.
I too grew up with a sheath knife (still have the one my Dad bought for me as a young teenager) attached; didn't live in the country though. Pretty common back then amongst those who went camping, sailing, kayaking, etc., Different world now.
cheers,
M
I too grew up with a sheath knife (still have the one my Dad bought for me as a young teenager) attached; didn't live in the country though. Pretty common back then amongst those who went camping, sailing, kayaking, etc., Different world now.
cheers,
M
Forgot the link
http://www.rajar.co.uk/listening/quarterly_listening.php
Radio 4 is well below the others available in Scotland. Tay alone beats it.
atb,
Mary
Thanks Mary - I was looking for the link to the question on what law they would like to see? Happy to see the link to the radio Tay poll.......
As for which represents the UK population best
I can't find Radio Tay in even the top 10....so I hardly think it represents anything other than a tiny minority of the United Kingdom. Does Radio Tay ever achieve 10 million
source: http://www.mediauk.com/article/32695/the-most-popular-radio-stations-in-the-uk
Really - its a tiny minority station - and I haven't seen they have ever asked a question about citizens rights.....please...show me what they asked - even as a minority station
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People who don't realise what they are saying, mostly. Knee jerk legislation is made in haste and repented at leisure. When the "carry a knife go to jail " lot started I had a client the police charged as a result, an 83 year old man who had never been in trouble in his life but who had his rose pruning penknife in his pocket. The laws wanted by the anti knife folk would see him go to jail on a mandatory sentence, with no consideration for intent or lack of harm.
The very same tabloid idiots whipped up a storm about the treatment of alleged rape victims a few years ago after a girl killed herself at the end of a trial in which she had given evidence. The papers repeatedly attacked the defence lawyer for "laying in to her and making her hold up the underwear she had been wearing" and as a result there was knee jerk legislation which completely changed the way law affecting sex crime cases, to the detriment of anyone accused of such a crime. The only problem was that almost everything the papers said happened, did not happen. It was the judge asking the girl questions, not the lawyer and the questions were about why the physical evidence in the case completely contradicted her allegations.
Reply to British Red
You're conflating issues...... I have no doubt that if someone broke into my home while I was in, (s)he'd either get out sharpish or I'd start flinging things......but I still have no problem with not being allowed to carry a knife when I'm going shopping.
As to whether flinging things at a home invader is advisable or not, I think that's another thread and discussion
On thinking on it; I might have to Mod myself for encouraging illegal behaviour
cheers,
M
You're conflating issues...... I have no doubt that if someone broke into my home while I was in, (s)he'd either get out sharpish or I'd start flinging things......but I still have no problem with not being allowed to carry a knife when I'm going shopping.
As to whether flinging things at a home invader is advisable or not, I think that's another thread and discussion
On thinking on it; I might have to Mod myself for encouraging illegal behaviour
cheers,
M
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