Carrying an Axe/Knife and the Law

[British Red]

My attitude is that you cannot prevent violence by banning the carrying / possession of a particular type of tool. At best it simply moves the problem and those bent on violence use a different tool. Its rather like the playing around with opening hours and drinks prices to prevent binge drinking in pubs - it gave rise to "pre-loading" where youngsters drink a lot of cheap vodka before they leave home. Now there is talk of increasing the price of cheap vodka..they will simply move on to the next method.

For me we need to:

1) Stop making laws that inconvenience the majority. If someone intends to commit an assault, they will find the means.

2) Punish an action - not a possession. I don't care if someone carries a knife - I do care if they stab someone.

3) Stop looking at part of the picture. Its irrelevant if "knife crime" goes down - if "hammer crime" goes up. Sound bites and targets don't work.

4) Accept that the police cannot prevent crime or protect people from attack - any more than they can prevent speeding or drunkenness. Their job is to catch offenders. We must allow people the means to prevent crime in their own homes, neighbourhoods etc. I don't blame the police, but its an acknowledged truth that we have policing by consent in this country - a tiny proportion of the people are police and they cant be everywhere. Remember - when seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

 

[Toddy]

Edit; reply to tristar777

If you figure it out, away you and speak to the parliament
Seriously, they'll listen if the idea is sound. I think police, politicians, the procurator fiscals office and the Sheriff courts are as fed up of this issue as we are.

The obvious answer is that people should not attack others.
However, to my certain knowledge, that's been happening since the Mesolithic at least.......we need to try harder.
Education, respect for others and self, changing social attitudes; all initiatives that seem to slowly be making headway.

Having said all this though, Scotland is still a very safe society, certainly compared to most worldwide, just that when the issues are on your doorstep we're inclined to get our hackles up.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toddy]

Eh, BR, right now there are two policemen out for a walk down our street They do it most days, seemingly just for the walk There's no trouble here.

Your urban/rural divide is showing again Up here, knife crime is an urban issue, it really, really is.

cheers,
M

 

[British Red]

Eh, BR, right now there are two policemen out for a walk down our street They do it most days, seemingly just for the walk There's no trouble here.

Your urban/rural divide is showing again Up here, knife crime is an urban issue, it really, really is.

cheers,
M

I'm sure there are a couple of police Mary - in the same way there are patrols on motorways. There is still speeding however and still crime.

The police cannot prevent crime - it has always happened - it always will. Effective crime prevention is not based on making owning things illegal, it is based on giving people a stake in society...too much to lose if you will. However the is always an underbelly, and always will be.

Passing laws saying "you may not have this thing because some people might use it" or even these days "you may not have certain items of knowledge in case someone does something wrong with it" is both ineffective and getting really close to Orwell's thought crime.

We cannot legislate away the tools of crime - and should not try because it interferes with the respectable lives of normal people.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

 

[andybysea]

Bang on the button that British Red.

 

[santaman2000]

I saw a historical movie once where only the police had weapons. It was called Schindler's List.

 

[Toddy]

I've tried three times to explain this; but I'm clearly not doing it properly.

I have no disagreement with the don't punish the mainstream knife 'using' population for the criminal activities of a few........however, the laws and guidances were necessary (as in legally needed) to allow the police to be in any way proactive about reducing the prevalence of knife possession/carrying among a certain social group in mainstream society.

If they weren't there, they had no right to stop a group of youths, even if they were absolutely certain they were 'tooled up' and looking for trouble. It's a free society, habeas corpas an all that.
The police are not allowed to simply arrest someone for no reason, and unless in very specific circumstances, very carefully restricted in what they can and cannot do.
I don't consider it being punished; and the vast majority of the population are kind of relieved that carrying a knife is something that has come under police scrutiny.

Frankly, the chances of them stopping anyone from this forum or others like it is remote. The concerns raised are quite genuine though, and the subsequent changes in our behaviour because of the laws and guidelines, are irksome and annoying. On the other hand, if it makes us think and be aware of what we're doing, then it's no bad thing.

Now if the politicians would just sort out the devilish details, life might be a lot simpler; even if folks just want to use a decent knife to cut their steak



M

 

[British Red]

You have explained your position Mary - its just that we disagree.

, the laws and guidances were necessary (as in legally needed) to allow the police to be in any way proactive about reducing the prevalence of knife possession/carrying among a certain social group in mainstream society.

That's where we disagree Mary, I do not believe they were needed or necessary, nor do I believe it should be an offense to carry a tool, I believe it should be (and it already was) an offense to use that tool in an offensive manner. Why on earth should one seek to reduce knife possession in any social group? Or carrying for that matter? Reducing using it offensively, fine, but owning or carrying should not, of itslef, be an offence.

If they weren't there, they had no right to stop a group of youths, even if they were absolutely certain they were 'tooled up' and looking for trouble. It's a free society, habeas corpas an all that.

Actually they already had "stop and search" rules. However no offense had been committed simply by having a knife. Thats (in my opinion), how it should be - I don't believe that I have committed an offense by carrying a tool - and I must apply the same logic to "youths" to be fair and consistent.

We can disagree on this - thats allowed

 

[santaman2000]

The obvious answer is to ban steak. Then there'd be no need for a steak knife!

 

[mrcharly]

<Pointless annecdote> I've been 'stop and searched'; part of deterrence to 'knives on trains'. I was the middle-aged-white male in the quota for stop and searches. The locking 4"-bladed SAK in my bag wasn't an issue.

 

[Toddy]

You're right; we disagree.

I understand why the decisions were made, I might not agree with the entire application of them, but I do understand the reasoning.

How things 'should be' is often very different from the messy reality of dealing with people.

cheers,
M

 

[Toddy]

The obvious answer is to ban steak. Then there'd be no need for a steak knife!

Well, mebbe no' ......I'm the resident vegetarian here, and I haven't eaten steak in so long I don't even remember what it tastes like; (the whole concept is grossing me out about now ) but I've got a really nice shinies collection.....just no steak knives, iimmc

M

 

[Opal]

Eh, BR, right now there are two policemen out for a walk down our street They do it most days, seemingly just for the walk There's no trouble here.

Your urban/rural divide is showing again Up here, knife crime is an urban issue, it really, really is.

cheers,
M

So that's where they are? the other day I decided to travel to Wigan to buy some fishing items, I used three buses to get there, after a bite to eat in the cafe, I walked to the first bus stop home and lo and behold, a policeman on foot at the bus stop

It's the first time in months I've spotted a walking policeman and I had to travel to see one.

 

[Jared]

The obvious answer is to ban steak. Then there'd be no need for a steak knife!

Or have bit sized chunks, and have specially trained steak butchers.

 

[Jared]

<Pointless annecdote> I've been 'stop and searched'; part of deterrence to 'knives on trains'. I was the middle-aged-white male in the quota for stop and searches. The locking 4"-bladed SAK in my bag wasn't an issue.

Think that maybe luck rather than sense though.

A poster on BB got charged with a slip jointed 3" bladed SAK, not for the blade, but because the corkscrew was a "pointed item". It went all the way to the CPS which finally dropped the case due to "lack of evidence".

 

[mrcharly]

Think that maybe luck rather than sense though.

A poster on BB got charged with a slip jointed 3" bladed SAK, not for the blade, but because the corkscrew was a "pointed item". It went all the way to the CPS which finally dropped the case due to "lack of evidence".

I think it is more due to 'attitude test' than anything else and police officers of my acquaintance agree.
I've read the thread on BB.

 

[santaman2000]

Or have bit sized chunks, and have specially trained steak butchers.

LOL. Stir-fry. But then we'd have those dangerous chop-sticks.

 

[santaman2000]

Well, mebbe no' ......I'm the resident vegetarian here, and I haven't eaten steak in so long I don't even remember what it tastes like; (the whole concept is grossing me out about now ) but I've got a really nice shinies collection.....just no steak knives, iimmc

M

I hadn't thought of that. Of course you're right; we need to ban vegetables too. Nasty things full of food-borne diseases anyway. Nothing but preprocessed nutrition pills from now on. That way there's also no danger from fires caused by cooking. We can make life completely safe and sterile if we only legislate it strictly enough.

 

[Stringmaker]

and if they try to caution you for carrying the tools - refuse to accept it, in a nice non confrontational way of course.

Sound advice in any situation; never never accept a caution. Make them prove an offence.

 

[Tristar777]

Hi. Just for info, I dont know the answer as it is a complicated issue. Do we counter "violent knife crime" with changes to Self defence laws and the "right" to carry items to defend our selves with? Or does this just escilate the problem and make people in the knife and gun trade rich?!
Are we happier seeing Police officers carrying weapons all the time or do we defend our selves?
If education is the answer (as was stated earlier regarding Sex Education to reduce teenage pregnancy), why have we the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe?

I dont know, just seen all this talk before but here in the UK we seem to spend all the time moaning and little time doing!