Attitudes Concerning Rescue

[Mantic]

its kind of asuming that people walk out on the mouting thinking they will be rescued if need be or is it that some people are just ignorent to the risks and end up over there heads .
i kind of incline to the most part that people are ignorant to the risks and what is properly equipt- though i have been wrong before

I agree with you here William. People ARE ignorant of the risks - and to be realistic, it's in our nature. How many of us have had accidents whilst driving too fast? I know I have - I was young and thought I knew everything. Well how could I know what was around the corner when I totalled my Golf? I couldn't, since that would require x-ray vision but the ignorance and ego of youth is a powerful motivator for irrational and stupid acts.

How many people who get rescued consider their actions more carefully when travelling through the wilds? I'd bet it was a reasonable number.

Some of you are having a crack at Nobby but I feel that it's misplaced. Nobby is arguing that to create any further regulations concerning our forays into the wilds is against the spirit of why we do it in the first place. Yes, there will be ignorant people who go off and get themselves into trouble just as there will be extremely well equipped / trained people who do the same.

Should we charge stupid people for calling upon the services of the emergency services? How could we do that? Who would determine who the stupid people are? Who would determine what is acceptable in terms of kit? I know I wouldn't want that job. An alternative would be to offer / enforce training for anyone who requires saving but even that is fraught with problems.

I can thoroughly understand some of the anger / disappointment coming from the rescue services and I sympathise but we are all stupid people some of the time : )

Saying that, people who are stupid AND rude, well that sort of combination should result in prison time (joke)

Let's try and keep everything friendly - I'm not a moderator but we all know what happens when threads start getting 'hot'.

 

[nobby]

No there is no requirement for park rangers to be there checking peoples kit, but the use of a little common sense would not go amiss as it isn't just your life you are messing with when you go out unprepared and with little planning.

So nobby when you are out on a hill unprepared, with insufficient local or practical knowledge and endangering the lives of others, please have a thought for those people who will try everything to get you off the hill alive and not in a body bag as they have your best interests at heart.

It may also be worth thinking about who's best interests you have at heart, because they are not your own or those of the people trying to rescue you as you will be the one putting them in danger as well.

Think on it before replying.

Well, I've thought on it. Permission to reply?

And how are you going to factor in common sense? Are you suggesting that everyone has it but some don't know how to use it? Perhaps they can be trained?
My experience of people is that some are devoid of common sense and always will be, but I would argue that isn't a good reason to stop them doing things.

Why on earth do you suppose that I would go out on a hill unprepared? Is this just a cheap attempt to personalise the debate?

The best interests that I have at heart are the freedoms necessary for 'muppets' to take to the hills when they wish. I believe that in the same way that some people volunteer to be rescuers other people have the right to put themselves in the way of being rescued. Although I doubt that many of those people even think about rescue before the event.

 

[bogflogger]

Unfortunately, those people are the ones who end up being stretchered off the hill in black rubber bags.

Perhaps you should have a go at carrying a 12 stone body in a MR stretcher for 3 or 4 miles over the mountains.

That might provide you with some insight into why MRT complain in the media, about ill prepared people in the mountains.

 

[nobby]

I think the point nobby is that the onus shouldn't be all on the rescuers, that's just not fair.

I agree with you, but how far are you prepared to go to make sure that everybody who wants to enjoy the outdoors is suitably equipped? Who decides what is suitable?
I wore plimsolls for a two day DofE hike many, many moons ago. I bet they wouldn't be considered suitable now, but I, and similarly clad mates, completed the hike without harm. What would be the minimum footwear requirement nowadays and where would that leave a couple of youngsters from skint families?
Shall we insist on Goretex outer clothing or will a pacamac do? I wore a pale blue girls one for a week in the Lake District. My mum couldn't afford anything else and the alternative was a gaberdine school coat. I was fairly ripe at the end of each wet day but unharmed - excepting for the phsychiatric problems caused by the coat buttoning on the wrong side.
Overtrousers? I prefer leggings can we make an allowance for them?
And it can go on and on and on.
Once you go down this path you can't climb back. IMO

 

[william#]

maybe moans to the media is not the right wording
maybe its more along the lines of rescuers being frustrated at the lack of fore site of some of there punters .
certainly the result is that there is media attention and the issue is raised in the papers so at least more people get to read about it .
when i use the term ignorent people i dont mean in a derogative sence just ignorent in say mountain walking .
the types of climate you get on mountains is so much different to what we usually experiance on the lower levels where we live im not suprised that people get caught out as i imagine its quite hard to imagine what you can face up top compared to what you are use to

 

[nobby]

Unfortunately, those people are the ones who end up being stretchered off the hill in black rubber bags.

Perhaps you should have a go at carrying a 12 stone body in a MR stretcher for 3 or 4 miles over the mountains.

That might provide you with some insight into why MRT complain in the media, about ill prepared people in the mountains.

So leave them if it is too much trouble to remove them. Wouldn't there be ecological benefits? Or, only fetch off the properly equipped bodies. Perhaps that would work towards keeping the ill equipped at home.

 

[bogflogger]

There is something to the freedom/safety/responsibility issue, to my certain knowledge it has been going on for the last 25 years at least.

However, some MRT can predict exactly where they need to go to collect casualties, some have even installed fixed bolts on the ridgeline for rescue winches.

The Adventure/Experience balance has tipped in favour of "adventure at any price" in the last decade, plus the number of novices in the mountains has increased hugely in the same period.

There are far too many "instant experts" about who believe that expensive equipment is a substitute for years of hard won experience and who find out the hard way when they overextend their capability.

And you wonder why MRT are becoming more vocal?

 

[wingstoo]

This is going to be a little off the main line of the topic but.....

How many here are aware that the cost for sending an ambulance to the scene of a RTC (Road Traffic Collision) formerly known as a RTA (Road Traffic Accident) (note the word "Accident" has now gone) can, and regularly is charged to the driver of the car the patient is removed from...... This is of course chargeable to your insurance and is then claimed back through the person responsible for the collision, or their insurance.. so perhaps the powers that be may one day be able to make a claim through your home type insurance schemes for those who require a MRT.

Just a thought...

LS

 

[bogflogger]

Ok, I will assume you are being serious here so bear with me:

No, there are not ecological benefits to leaving Human Remains on the Mountains.

In fact, All the National Parks have already asked people to stop scattering Ashes from the Summits, as it is altering an already fragile ecology.

MRT do not and will never, differentiate between experienced/inexperienced or rich/poor.

They are attending a Casualty, pure and simple.

 

[Mantic]

Did you also know that an RTA without death costs around £80,000 and can cost well over a £250,000 if a death occurs.

 

[wingstoo]

Did you also know that an RTA without death costs around £80,000 and can cost well over a £250,000 if a death occurs.

I heard from a policeman a while back that the figure when death occurs can be as much as £750,000, but that probably takes a lot more into account such as loss of earning for relatives....

LS

 

[bogflogger]

To train a SARDA dog costs around £3000 and that figure does not include travel costs or manhours involved.

Nor the years of committment, once the dog is operational.

Nor, the loss of earnings for the handler when they get a callout.

 

[Shambling Shaman]

I would like to make multiple quotes but haven figured how to.

So first,
Education not Regulation is the way.

Miss information needs to be addressed i.e... “the tourist path or the easy route etc. (the amount of people who think the cafe and train are open all year on snowdon if ridiculous)

We on the MRTs are all volenters, we do because we want to again the amount of people who think we get paid and try to claim of us for damage to kit.............

And throw this in to the mix they are trialling a privatised SAR...

 

[william#]

there seems to be a lot of views here but the underlineing theme is that people here seem to care
of course mrt is going to save anyone who needs it .
it is heartening that at least we know about adventure/responsibility.
there are always going to be people pushing the limits there will also be people here to explain the dangers and the precautions needed in more remote areas
evolution
also as we all get older and get more experianced we can pass on what we have learnt
there will always be the jeans and hoody brigade matching headlong up a peak to certain disater
but do not forget that we may be in a privaled position that we have had the training the experiance and kept out of trouble long enough to understand the dangers .
there are a lot of people out there we might call muppets but are they not trying to find something more there first (all be it kamakazie steps ) into a remote area
good or bad maybe they are just trying to satifie that inner feeling that drives the more experianced to the remote areas - i know you have all felt it - just we have learned that there is a little more to it(you know like having a brew kit lol).

 

[bambodoggy]

I agree with you, but how far are you prepared to go to make sure that everybody who wants to enjoy the outdoors is suitably equipped? Who decides what is suitable?

I'd say a pretty good way was for senior members of the MRT (who will know through years more experience on the mountains than most of us) to go on national TV and tell everyone how stupid Mr and Mrs Muppet have been...result:
Mr and Mrs Muppet think twice about doing it again and millions of other views out there get the message that when you go into the mountains you need a bit more kit than you do going down to your local boozer.

Or would you rather we hushed it up and kept the muppets coming to the mountains oblivious to the facts? ? ?

You can't have it both ways

Bam.

 

[Abbe Osram]

While talking about the cost of a rescue we might all get heated up seeing the dollars involved saving a family or some teenagers behaving foolish on a mountaintop.

Ok, right!

But why are we not all stressed up about the millions we spend on football hooligans and fools trying to kill each other and normal people in the streets.
Has anyone counted out how much we all pay for that? Hundreds of policeman on the streets every week are costing us millions!

We see hundreds of fools rushing each other and fighting it out but we never complain to pay for their safety and hospital costs. I rather see some fools on the mountains rescued for my tax money than these football hooligans. The fools on the mountain tops might learn something while the stupid football hooligans are out there on the street next week again an again while we faithfully pay to protect them from killing each other and other people.

Talking about money is all relative in my opinion.

Cheers
Abbe

 

[bambodoggy]

Talking about money is all relative in my opinion.

I agree totally Abbe....it's not the money I'm bothered about in the slightest, money isn't that important and certainly not in the context talked about below....it's more the cost to life, both rescuer and rescuee that winds me up.

 

[bogflogger]

Actually, when you consider the cost of a full drum of 11mm Kernmantle rope (even allowing for trade/goodwill discount) you are still talking about £500 plus a drum.

When you add to that, the extra wear and tear of rescue operations and the fact that operational ropes are retired early for safety reasons, you are looking at a Massive outlay of cash annually.

Now add on the cost of all the other hardware, vehicles and fuel, HQ maintenence, etc, etc, and you will see that money actually really is quite important in running an efficient and professional MRT.

Considering that most MRT are only funded by voluntary donations and fund raising events organised by the teams themselves, perhaps it's time to start "rattling the tin" here.

So the next time you see a MRT/SARDA/RNLI box, stick at least a Fiver in it, one day you might find you were glad you did!

 

[PurpleHeath]

Actually, when you consider the cost of a full drum of 11mm Kernmantle rope (even allowing for trade/goodwill discount) you are still talking about £500 plus a drum.

When you add to that, the extra wear and tear of rescue operations and the fact that operational ropes are retired early for safety reasons, you are looking at a Massive outlay of cash annually.

Now add on the cost of all the other hardware, vehicles and fuel, HQ maintenence, etc, etc, and you will see that money actually really is quite important in running an efficient and professional MRT.

Considering that most MRT are only funded by voluntary donations and fund raising events organised by the teams themselves, perhaps it's time to start "rattling the tin" here.

So the next time you see a MRT/SARDA/RNLI box, stick at least a Fiver in it, one day you might find you were glad you did!

i would just like to say thank you to all th MRT's out there! i have never needed to be recused, and i hope that i will never need to. although i was very lucky that i was taken out on a training mission in a RAF sea king. the whole crew were really great, and it was amazing how much they loved their job.

there has been a lot of negative energy on this thread about Mr and Mrs muppet, calling out the cavalry becuase they left there map in the car 5 miles back and can't remember which path they took. if all of you started putting the amount of effort into relpying to these posts, complianing about the muppet family. and instead help support the MRT's then they wouldn't have to go private and i think that we all believe that is a bad idea! whats worst the muppet family getting picked up and we all have to pay, (a small amount) or you have an accident and fall down a 20ft cliff, although you have all the kit you need, you can't use it becuase it is too painful and you have to pay the £300,000 for the nice trip to hostipal in heilcopter?
we all need the MRT's know matter how knowledgable we think we are.
thanks guys and gals :You_Rock_

 

[leon-1]

Well, I've thought on it. Permission to reply?

And how are you going to factor in common sense? Are you suggesting that everyone has it but some don't know how to use it? Perhaps they can be trained?
My experience of people is that some are devoid of common sense and always will be, but I would argue that isn't a good reason to stop them doing things.

Why on earth do you suppose that I would go out on a hill unprepared? Is this just a cheap attempt to personalise the debate?

The best interests that I have at heart are the freedoms necessary for 'muppets' to take to the hills when they wish. I believe that in the same way that some people volunteer to be rescuers other people have the right to put themselves in the way of being rescued. Although I doubt that many of those people even think about rescue before the event.

Freedoms of the muppets as you put it are no good to corpses.

I agree that some people do appear devoid of common sense, common sense is having a damn good whinge about people who blindly endanger the lives of others, I think the rescuers have a right to that.

I also can see that so far you are the only one who has taken a stance on why people should be allowed to go into the hills unprepared endangering the lives of others and costing the tax payers money (RAF Helicopters cost a lot of money) and saying then that the people that have gone up into the hills to get them back to thier families safely haven't got a right to criticise them is ridiculous.

Earlier I did say that some people do appear to be devoid of common sense, but the key word is "appear" as you will never know when someone will surprise you.

I have never said that people should be banned or stopped from going into the hills, I have said that people should use some common sense, people are not totally devoid of it whatever you may think, and that taking advice from people who know isn't a bad thing as this is how you educate people.

Most people are fully aware of the risks when they go into the hills and a good few of them carry safety kit that they themselves may never use on themselves.

We have just had the Ten Tors run down here, did you see what the kids had to go through before they embarked on the event itself, these people have trained and applied common sense before the event, they have taken advice and been educated, in the future they will know what they need to take with them.

Now they had to go through the kit checks and all the rest before they embarked, I go through a kit check before I embark (that is my personal choice), but then I always have checked my kit before I went out.

A couple of years ago some friends wanted to go up Hellvellyn and asked me if I would check thier kit before they went as I had the experience, that was a little common sense (strangely from someone who normally appears to be devoid of it). I checked thier kit for them and they then asked me if I wanted to go on a trip to the lakes, I said yes and went with them. We did a fair bit of walking whilst there, but every morning we went through a kit check ensuring that anything that had been used was replaced and that the guys had any weight distributed evenly.

I didn't force them into a kit check, they had watched me do it in the morning so copied, in the end we just did the check as a matter of course as a group as it was easier.