Attitudes Concerning Rescue

[nobby]

This poor guy, IIRC, wasn't part of a team and so was no one's "responsibility".

My reference to the "The void" was to point out that the guy who was left for dead had no issue with his mate.Indeed he praised him for sticking around as long as he did.

I accept what you say, but I feel that somebody who was there should have taken on the "responsibility" and organised help. 40 people passed by. If only one of them had shown a spark of active compassion help could have been, I believe, organised. It wouldn't needed all 40 to help just a few. Perhaps he would have died anyway but we will never know that, will we?
I've been to accidents where people stood by unwilling to do anything, but as soon as a person willing to take a little responsibility arrived they mucked in.
Obviously, I wasn't on Everest and all I have as facts is newspaper reports. I'm cynical enough to expect them to be partial at best, but there seem to be no mitigating factors in this episode.
It is a disgusting episode but, from comments that I've read here and on various blogs, not unusual today. That being so the general attitude has chaged drastically in the last 50 years. I've raised four children to adulthood and taught hundreds. I fervently hope that none of them believe that self interest takes priority.
Somebody once said that all we leave behind is our name. I'll remember Mr. Inglis not as a double amputee who 'conquered' Everest but as one of 40 who passed by.

 

[Abbe Osram]

I accept what you say, but I feel that somebody who was there should have taken on the "responsibility" and organised help. 40 people passed by. If only one of them had shown a spark of active compassion help could have been, I believe, organised. It wouldn't needed all 40 to help just a few. Perhaps he would have died anyway but we will never know that, will we?
I've been to accidents where people stood by unwilling to do anything, but as soon as a person willing to take a little responsibility arrived they mucked in.
Obviously, I wasn't on Everest and all I have as facts is newspaper reports. I'm cynical enough to expect them to be partial at best, but there seem to be no mitigating factors in this episode.
It is a disgusting episode but, from comments that I've read here and on various blogs, not unusual today. That being so the general attitude has chaged drastically in the last 50 years. I've raised four children to adulthood and taught hundreds. I fervently hope that none of them believe that self interest takes priority.
Somebody once said that all we leave behind is our name. I'll remember Mr. Inglis not as a double amputee who 'conquered' Everest but as one of 40 who passed by.

Nobby,
I really understand you, I understand you because I have three small children and if I think that the guy who died up there would be my son or daughter, I would myself do everything I could to help my kid. That boy was someone elses child too, from that perspective one could question me why I would be so tuff not helping. That saying I dont know what I would do but I dont think it is right to push a moral onto a person choices.

To give you another picture story. Here where some boys with a snow-mobile driving on a lake, rushing and breaking hard near to a whole in the ice.
One old guy asked them what they are doing there, and they say its a competion who can drive nearest to the whole in the ice. The old man said they should stop with such foolish stuff but they didnt hear. So it happens as it happens, one breaks in and fight for his life not to drown. The other rush off. A family daddy in his cabin see the thing and rushes out to help. He himself has small children and a family to care off.

Helping the boy, he died and leaves his family behind which loved him and missed him dearly. The father was the rock in the family a very great guy. His family fell apart. The mother started drinking and the teenager daugther rushed off too early with the first best guy. Later we heard that he was beating her and she started to use drugs.

The boy who fell in the lake survived and grew up, he never thanked the family but continued to be a pest in the village. One day while drinking and driving he hit a family car. He got 3 month jail and the family in the other car lost a child in the accident.

All of that teaches me to leave life alone. The boys where stupid, they got a chance from life through the old man telling them off, they didnt listen, it was time for them to die. The family daddy had a morale and his moral made him help. He died and his family got into deep suffering. The boy survived and killed another person in the process.

Lets see what would have happend if the daddy didnt help:

The stupid kid would have died, the family would not have split, mother would not have started drinking and the daughter would not have ended up in a terrible relationship ending up in drugs. The boy would not have survived but could not have killed in a drunken and drive accident the other kid either.

Life is not so simple, so watch out with misleading morals.
Stay aware and in that sometimes you help and sometimes not, stay free!

Cheers
Abbe

 

[BorderReiver]

A further thought.

Once the 40 return to civilisation,comfort and safety,how many of them will find any pleasure in thier "achievement"?

How many will lose any sleep over what they might have done,or regret having left a fellow human to die without lifting a finger?

FWIW,I think they did the sensible thing.Whether or not it was the right thing is not for me to judge,I wasn't there.

 

[nobby]

A further thought.

FWIW,I think they did the sensible thing.Whether or not it was the right thing is not for me to judge,I wasn't there.

But you've made the judgement that it was sensible without being there.

With reference to your signature Mike, my wife says that yes he would still be wrong and unable to appreciate how wrong without his wife to tell him :0)

 

[Womble]

All of that teaches me to leave life alone. The boys where stupid, they got a chance from life through the old man telling them off, they didnt listen, it was time for them to die. The family daddy had a morale and his moral made him help. He died and his family got into deep suffering. The boy survived and killed another person in the process.

Lets see what would have happend if the daddy didnt help:

The stupid kid would have died, the family would not have split, mother would not have started drinking and the daughter would not have ended up in a terrible relationship ending up in drugs. The boy would not have survived but could not have killed in a drunken and drive accident the other kid either.

Life is not so simple, so watch out with misleading morals.
Stay aware and in that sometimes you help and sometimes not, stay free!

Cheers
Abbe

No, I'll never accept that Abbe. There is NO way of knowing the consequences of actions made in the situation you describe. The man did what he did because he was a moral man. If he had not, would he have been lessened in his own eyes - knowing that he could have helped save someone, but didn't?

Maybe he would have started drinking, to ease his sense of failure.

Maybe he would have started beating his wife, because he hated himself so much.

Maybe his daughter could not handle the change in him and left home.

And maybe, driving home after one nights drinking, he would lose control of the car and...

We don't know the answers to that and we never will. Everything is conjecture, but tragedy is tragedy.

There are times when you do something not because of consequences that can or cannot be seen, but because it's the right thing to do.

 

[BorderReiver]

But you've made the judgement that it was sensible without being there.

With reference to your signature Mike, my wife says that yes he would still be wrong and unable to appreciate how wrong without his wife to tell him :0)

Fair point,on both matters.

 

[Abbe Osram]

No, I'll never accept that Abbe. There is NO way of knowing the consequences of actions made in the situation you describe. The man did what he did because he was a moral man. If he had not, would he have been lessened in his own eyes - knowing that he could have helped save someone, but didn't?

Maybe he would have started drinking, to ease his sense of failure.

Maybe he would have started beating his wife, because he hated himself so much.

Maybe his daughter could not handle the change in him and left home.

And maybe, driving home after one nights drinking, he would lose control of the car and...

We don't know the answers to that and we never will. Everything is conjecture, but tragedy is tragedy.

There are times when you do something not because of consequences that can or cannot be seen, but because it's the right thing to do.

You see why we don’t understand each other has to do with the fact that you believe that there is such a thing as the "right" thing. Where do you take that from? That is what I called "Moral”, if the story turns out your way than this happens only because he was forced by a "moral" which he got imprinted to him through his culture

If I would know that someone is doing a stupid thing, putting himself in danger, playing with his own life. I let him die, as I don’t want to play God. If he survives, fine, if he doesn’t that ok too. I will sleep well. I saw a guy in Uppsala drunk, climbing on a bridge railing wanting to impress a group of girls. My way to go home was over the bridge, the guy was really ****** and shouting and hauling. The river under the bridge was running fast and was full with snow and ice.

I turned around and walked the other way, the longer way home. I didn’t want to help him if he fell in, I didn’t want to see him, hear him or help him.
Maybe he fell in and is dead, I don’t care, it’s his life. He made the choice to drink and to climb up the bridge, not me.

Tell me who is right and who is wrong. Lets say a fox mother is going out on a hunt to catch a rabbit for food. That is very good and right because she has little babies to bring food to.
But it’s very wrong and terrible for the little rabbit babies waiting for her mom to come home and give them milk. If you would ask the little rabbit babies, they would tell you that the fox is a murderer. If you ask the fox babies they would say she is a caring mother. Tell me is it wrong to kill? No, you will say she has too. Ok, is it ok to kill for a human another if he is hungry?

I respect you but I think "moral" is a handicap like trying to swim through live with too many cloth on. It has no basis in reality. I don’t mean that you can’t help, please do and jump. I respect so much that I would let you die, it’s your choice, if you don’t want to die why are you putting yourself at risk. Because I respect you I allow you to be and to choose. You are not like that, as you want to make other people a conscious with your own moral. If you truly love freedom, let him die or help him but don’t push other people with the weapon called "moral".

I want to leave people free and I give Abbe to the right help or not to help!

Therefore I said, "Do what you want"! If you want to kill yourself then by all means do it, I would not stop you. If you want to help others that’s great, I respect that. But if you would be one of the 40 climbers pressing on to the mountain top, passing by the dying guy, I would not look down on them and say that they don’t have a "moral" because they don’t live after "my personal" convictions. There is not such a thing as a standard moral. If you look in history, at times it was ok to kill your own children if you have more than 2. Some of these cultures survived because of that for thousands of years before the Christians came with the moral of "you shall not kill", after that they got in real trouble.
If you want to know more about that I can give you a good book tip.

Please understand me right, I might help but I might help not that is up to me depending on the situation, I am free to do what I want. I help or don’t it’s the same to me and don’t have a bad conscious because of that. If you help me one day, I am thankful but if you don’t help me I will not condemn you for it either.


Cheers
Abbe

 

[British Red]

Just a thought Abbe. If its okay to "Do what you want" and the thing someone actually wants to do is criticise 40 blokes up a mountain who left a guy to die, surely they (the people criticising) are "doing what they want to do"?

 

[Abbe Osram]

Just a thought Abbe. If its okay to "Do what you want" and the thing someone actually wants to do is criticise 40 blokes up a mountain who left a guy to die, surely they (the people criticising) are "doing what they want to do"?

yes, they do right! Its good to criticise!
It great that you see that! Wonderfull, I am happy about that.
cheers
Abbe

 

[Mantic]

Instead of dreaming of buy to let,frapuccinos,bed head haircuts and Gucci manbags we should be camping out,hunting and fishing.(living a mans life!)

The sheeple in Britain have no respect for the 'nature' and have very little interests other than dogging,Ipods and bloody big brother.

Thats why i am such an antisocial b"£$!@d

That's the stuff! I'm sure we'd get along great but I'm antisocial too

 

[BOD]

It would appear that one should always give it a try and that a whiff of O2 never hurt.

I don't think I would like to be one of those 40 persons who passed Sharp.

the resurrection
http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=3315

the death
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1648110.htm

 

[nobby]

It would appear that one should always give it a try and that a whiff of O2 never hurt.

I don't think I would like to be one of those 40 persons who passed Sharp.

the resurrection
http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=3315

the death
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1648110.htm

Lucky he wasn't there on a world record week.

 

[bogflogger]

This is more in keeping with the Ethics of Mountaineering.

This is how it should be done:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2201156,00.html

Tell me who will have the greater satisfaction in years to come, the guys who helped, or those who walked past in their utterly selfish persuit of the summit?