Attitudes Concerning Rescue

[Mantic]

A nice tale of common sense but I'm sure we all have stories where the lack of common sense prevailed - some of them will unfortunately involve us : ) But it doesn't prove anything.

Recently I organised a relaxed Fan dance in Brecon - there were 8 of us in total - half had reasonable hiking experience and one of them had a (supposedly) considerable level of experience. Despite my best efforts, no one wanted to know what route we were taking, no one as much as glanced at the route maps I had produced (1 copy each), no one checked my map / compass skills - in fact the guy with the GPS suggested that I carry it as well.....to check my own work. Duh!

With 60+MPH winds and horizontal rain, all the 'expert' hiker wanted to do was complete the lask peak, regardless of the fact that we only had 2 more hours of decent daylight and that half the group were soaked to the skin (waterproofs not up to the job) and exhausted. Eventually I had to demand that we follow an alternate route which would get us under cover within the 2 hours.

He was a fool, some of the other guys were sheep and I was (at first) the only voice of reason. Of course by the time we reached a suitable camping area, everyone seemed to think that the idea to get of the hill was theirs. Do I care? Not really - we all exhibit a lack of common sometime or other. Will I go hiking with the 'expert' again - nope.

Regulating access to what little natural wild land we have is both pointless and dangerous - this is regardless of the current level of accidents or costs incurred. On average, 15 kids are killed or seriously injured on our roads every day. The cost in terms of money / family grief makes the mountain rescue costs look like a drop in the ocean. Has this resulted in better training for drivers? Stiffer penalties for those who cause accidents? Nope.

We can all complain, we can all point out the stupid people but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how much we try or how much we spend, the rescue services are a necessary part of our society.

 

[william#]

i know what you mean i have found myself having to convince people in a party its unwise to go on .
still its all part of the course i supose

 

[Mantic]

Yeah, as I said, we've all got some stories like that. Annoying when your mates presume that you're as clueless as they are : )

On the same trip, the other guys wanted a campfire. I was against this because it was a no campfire area, the area had already been stripped of decent timber (and what was left was soaking wet), plus it was raining. I suggested that a campfire was wasteful, illegal and unnecessary but still they had to have a fire.

They presumed that my reason for not wanting a fire was because I couldn't make one (a laughable slur if you knew me). Well, they made their fire - it cost them 2 toilet rolls and one camping gas cannister, plus a stove which they broke in the process (this ignores the damage they caused to the local flora and fauna in their search for wood).

I would argue that a total idiot could make fire using that amount of combustibles It was left to me (on my own) to clear up their mess once they had finished with their pointless conflagration.

Great mates huh?!

 

[swamp donkey]

I have been following this thread with some interest. Its interesting how much of the information and comment (as well meaning as it) offered is from the heart, urban myth or believing what one reads in the media.. rather than from fact.
I can only really comment about the UK . As there has been alot said, I may well ramble on but hey ho.
I dont believe that peoples attitude to rescue has changed that much over the years or in fact their ability to be stupid or unthinking. Thats the reason we have Rescue teams, Fire brigades, Life boats etc. If you take a look at the fatality statisics for mountain rescue over the last 40 years or so , you will see that it has not risen by much despite the huge growth in numbers of people going on the hills . The number of incidents has risenen but again not really in propotion to people on the hill. So does that mean that people in the past were actually less safe than now? probably yes . Lets remember that all the safety regulations we have in this country are there because of the stupid / unthoughtful actions of the people before us or infact some of us who are still about!
People have the right to potter about doing what they feel as it is them selves that have to bear the outcome if it goes wrong. So when I wander up Snowdon in my flip flops and shorts as I have on many occations . Do not, if you seek to tell me the error of my ways expect a polite reply, I know what I am doing.
Many of the things that have been suggested here already happen leaflets, training etc. When you read a report in the newspaper about an incident do not what ever you do, believe it as fact. there have been many occations when comments made by rescue personel, which have been meant as general educational advice have been spiced up or reedited by the press and then appear as whinging. much to the embarasment of the Rescue team. As a general rule the UK rescue teams do not whinge that much if you look at reports as a whole.
As for this idea that rescue personel are hero I think not . They are just ordinary people going about the job they have choosen to do (and love) wether it is on a paid or unpaid basis, to the best of there ability, with the ability to stop doing it when they (or more likely therir families) have had enough. This ties in with the rather stange notion that the rescuers are some how at risk when they go out to assist people, If thats the case they are doing it wrong .The level of training, expertise, equipment and abilty to risk asses on the hoof should ensure that. We are not talking rescue at any cost here its always "the casualty that dies first". Its a fact that more rescuers are killed each year going about there private buisness than on incidents and some of them being as stupid as the people they have assisted!

We have volunteer Mountain Rescue and Life boats because society has not deemed it their resposbilty to deal with the problem. They need our support so lets keep on putting money in there boxes and above all educating ours selfs, so as reduce the risk of asking for their assistance but remebering the unexpected heart attack or what ever is always around the corner.

I think that about it for now and I havnt even tackled helicopters yet.

 

[falling rain]

Maybe not a very good example in outdoor pursuits context but an example never the less of reliance on technology. (see link below)
I'm constantly being berated by friends and family about not answering my mobile phone, and ' What's the point of having one if you don't answer it'
I do answer it, but only when I want to. I don't let it become a part of my life to be relied upon and when I want some peace and quiet it goes off. I rule it. It dosn't rule me. As has been mentioned some people rely on the technology when out of doors thinking it's foolproof and will get them out of the do do if things go wrong always.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/4986432.stm

 

[nobby]

Freedoms of the muppets as you put it are no good to corpses.

I agree that some people do appear devoid of common sense, common sense is having a damn good whinge about people who blindly endanger the lives of others, I think the rescuers have a right to that.

I also can see that so far you are the only one who has taken a stance on why people should be allowed to go into the hills unprepared endangering the lives of others and costing the tax payers money (RAF Helicopters cost a lot of money) and saying then that the people that have gone up into the hills to get them back to thier families safely haven't got a right to criticise them is ridiculous.

Earlier I did say that some people do appear to be devoid of common sense, but the key word is "appear" as you will never know when someone will surprise you.

I have never said that people should be banned or stopped from going into the hills, I have said that people should use some common sense, people are not totally devoid of it whatever you may think, and that taking advice from people who know isn't a bad thing as this is how you educate people.

Most people are fully aware of the risks when they go into the hills and a good few of them carry safety kit that they themselves may never use on themselves.

OK, my last post on this I promise.

I wrote 'muppets' to indicate that I was quoting. It is a derogatory term that I disagree with.
I promise you that some people are devoid of common sense. I can only quote life experience of working with people in army, ambulance, business and education. Some people given correct instruction will still deliberately do the wrong thing. Sometimes to see what happens and sometimes because they can. Sometimes they will do the wrong thing because they didn't listen or can't remember. Taking advice can be good, if the advice is worth having. My own near drowning came about from taking poor advice and ignoring my own thoughts because I thought the source of the advice probably new more than me. I doubt that I would ever feel happy about drowning but I drown happier knowing that it was my own error.
I don't recall saying that you, individually, had suggested banning folk but if I have, or given that impression, I apologise.
We should all carry the correct kit, and be prepared to share it with the less prepared, I cannot disagree with that.
Finally, complain all you like you rescuers. My view is that the end result will be legislation and regulation, and that will not stop the ill prepared doing their own thing because they will ignore the rules whether they are voluntary or compulsory. Such rules will, however, make life more difficult for those of us who cherish the freedom of choice that we have at present.

 

[bogflogger]

That is actually a very relavent point.
How often do you hear of someone proudly showing off their new Satnav toy?

The crazy thing is, a Satnav is only accurate to Fifty feet, (which is enough inaccuracy to make falling over cliffs likely in zero vizibility) and yet so many people believe that they are somehow "better" than having proper navigation skills in their heads and willingly pay £100.00 plus for one.

For the same amount of money, you can do a Micro-Navigation course or a few Orienteering days and learn to be accurate to Ten feet instead of Fifty.

But I suppose that does not have enough LCD screens and backlights for the Techno-heads.

 

[swamp donkey]

Nobby keep on posting your view is a valid as any one elses .

I do agree with alot of what you have to say and there are certainly a few rescue people around the country who should get a life and or stop doing it if they dont like the customers..
I do not think that legisation is enevitable, We have just been given much more rights to roam than before (particularly in Scotland) with virtually no extra restrictions on how we do it . Its hard to make rules that are virtually un enforcable .Most rescuers disagree vearmantly with insurance for users as it is unnforcable and would not bring benfits to the rescuers themselves. Many would do it for free in competion with any paid people (I kid you not) but saying that there are a few who want to get paid for it and think they are more important than they really are, but thats life.

 

[bambodoggy]

I wrote 'muppets' to indicate that I was quoting. It is a derogatory term that I disagree with.

I believe it was me who introduced "Mr and Mrs Muppet" into this tread and me who refers to people as "muppets" in this thread and in others. I do so as where I come from a "Muppet" is a slag term for "Idiot". It's supposed to be derogatory in the same way that calling somebody an Idiot is derogatory and to be honest if you're going off into the mountains unprepared then in my honest and unbiased opinion you are an idiot....you guys don't have to agree with me but cards on the table time, that's what I think and I'm entitled to think that

So, please, if the word "muppet" offends any of you then please feel free to read the word "idiot" instead.

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[Abbe Osram]

I believe it was me who introduced "Mr and Mrs Muppet" into this tread and me who refers to people as "muppets" in this thread and in others. I do so as where I come from a "Muppet" is a slag term for "Idiot". It's supposed to be derogatory in the same way that calling somebody an Idiot is derogatory and to be honest if you're going off into the mountains unprepared then in my honest and unbiased opinion you are an idiot....you guys don't have to agree with me but cards on the table time, that's what I think and I'm entitled to think that

So, please, if the word "muppet" offends any of you then please feel free to read the word "idiot" instead.

Cheers,

Bam.

I heard once that the word "idiot" comes from a meaning indicating a person who is doing the same mistake over and over expecting each time a different outcome.

cheers
Abbe

 

[wingstoo]

That is actually a very relavent point.
How often do you hear of someone proudly showing off their new Satnav toy?

The crazy thing is, a Satnav is only accurate to Fifty feet, (which is enough inaccuracy to make falling over cliffs likely in zero vizibility) and yet so many people believe that they are somehow "better" than having proper navigation skills in their heads and willingly pay £100.00 plus for one.

For the same amount of money, you can do a Micro-Navigation course or a few Orienteering days and learn to be accurate to Ten feet instead of Fifty.

But I suppose that does not have enough LCD screens and backlights for the Techno-heads.

Hi Bogflogger, I thought it was about 10mtrs as that is the size of the square when using a 4 figure grid reference, even so 33ft is still over the cliff edge,

The other thing is that "they" tell you where "you" are, it is usually the operator who programmes the route in, so any errors by the programmer etc etc.

The other wonderful thing with GPS is that they are 'connected' to satalites, which can in effect be turned off or made less accurate at any time their operators so wish, so 10mtrs could suddenly become 100mtrs or 'off'.

Good for back up, but you cannot beat the traditional skills of map and compass.

LS

 

[Goose]

Hi Bogflogger, I thought it was about 10mtrs as that is the size of the square when using a 4 figure grid reference, even so 33ft is still over the cliff edge,

The other thing is that "they" tell you where "you" are, it is usually the operator who programmes the route in, so any errors by the programmer etc etc.

The other wonderful thing with GPS is that they are 'connected' to satalites, which can in effect be turned off or made less accurate at any time their operators so wish, so 10mtrs could suddenly become 100mtrs or 'off'.

Good for back up, but you cannot beat the traditional skills of map and compass.

LS

Generally a four fig grid reference is a kilometre square, six figure is 100m. But this is just a reference on a map, the trick with micro nav is judging distance and bearing accurately and this takes practise, but is generally more accurate than using grid references.
I don't think ,in the UK, being "lost"is a legitimate reason to call out rescue services, if I was overdue and someone else called 999 as I was missing, it would be fair enough but I would try to let my contact know I was only lost and would be late. If I couldn't, no signal on phone for eg, I would be really embarrassed if I caused a rescue to be mounted.

 

[falling rain]

I heard once that the word "idiot" comes from a meaning indicating a person who is doing the same mistake over and over expecting each time a different outcome.

cheers
Abbe

That's a great defination Abbe.

Or a person who makes the same mistake over and over with the same outcome, but still persists with his/her way of doing it.

 

[Shambling Shaman]

GPS -
Like all tec stuff should be used as an aid not the be-all end-all, We have had calls from people who call tell us a 10 fig grid yet are lost? they dont know what hill they are on? and when you ask for a sheet No. (as is it pos to have more than one 10 fig in the uk) er.... er....
Now I do use a gps now and again to comfirm were i am or to call in my location to colluges, but I will check that the gps and map tally.

 

[Mantic]

Oh yes indeed. If travelling in a group, you should always have at least two people reading the route and checking each other's work in the process. A GPS can be used by one person, but not both.

I love the idea of GPS but since you need to check it against a map / compass, why bother? I'll use a GPS for driving (if I could afford one) but not hiking. Mind you, I rarely get into areas where I need more than two OS maps...

I'm not directing this at you SS!

 

[BorderReiver]

.

I love the idea of GPS but since you need to check it against a map / compass, why bother? I'll use a GPS for driving (if I could afford one) but not hiking. Mind you, I rarely get into areas where I need more than two OS maps...

I'm not directing this at you SS!

I like to have the GPS along for those moments when you have to make a route decision and are not quite happy with your position.A quick map ref to cross check my navigation gives me a bit of reassurance.

 

[william#]

i bought a gps 3 mths ago and tbh ive only used it for geocache
though it does have an alitmeter on it too but i gegret now selling my wrist one as i think it would of been of more use mountain walking than the gps (im going to have to keep getting the gps out or hang it round my neck ) whilst the watch was on arm easy to look at
still who knows maybe i will warm to it in the future
a good mate of mine wont even touch gps on princible

 

[leon-1]

I have experience of and have used GPS for a long time, but the point stands that they are an aid to navigation and no substitute for well honed skills with map and compass.

GPS are like computers, rubbish in and rubbish out, so they are only as good as the person that programs it, they have limitations due to weather, flora coverage (jungle canopy or under trees), battery life and a considerable amount more so they are not to be used as a sole navigational aid.

I have seen people navigating on an incorrect map datum before with gps so even if you get everything else right one little slip can make a very large difference.

 

[william#]

yeh i was quite shocked at the lack of signal in a small woodland with little canopy.
you just can beat map compas and being able to read the contours -
sad though as the gps always appealed to my star trek tricorder side of me

 

[Shambling Shaman]

a good mate of mine wont even touch gps on princible

That was me as well - but when you are on a shout and need to give a quick grid ref it realy helps and some times every second counts.

It been said on this post but you cant say it to many times - GPS is an aid not the all in one answer.