Attitudes Concerning Rescue

[Naruska]

I have absolutely zero tolerance for people who would like to bum some chocolate off me 2 days into the hike "...because I already ate all mine...".

The same applies to the attitude that ..."I can`t be bothered to do this or that...it`s my problem/choice anyway....". The truth is. that when in a group, each individuals` actions and inactions affect the whole group...

Each and every time you call for rescue services, you may be directly placing someone`s life at extreme risk...if this needs to be done, it better be done for a very good reason...

Marko

 

[Hawkeye The Noo]

I must be to proud or old:

I fear I'm old enough to fit in that category, and would probably hide from searchers if I had anything short of a broken leg.

About about 16 years ago I was on the West Highland Way, going up the devils stair case when my rucksack strap snapped. I fell over and dislocated my knee. I was to embarased or stupid to phone for rescue. I was not prepared to leave my gear behind so I tied it to a 12 foot pole I cut with my hatchet. I put one end on the ground the other over my shoulder and dragged it. I strapped up my leg by cutting my cheap but heavy and thick waterproof trousers into strips and bandaging my leg rigid. I made it the rest of the way up and over into Kinloch leven where I aranged for a lift home. Only now these years later can I laugh about the situation; the worst thing was the cloud of midges that eat me while I hopped the rest of the way. All my strength was in my stubborness not my ability to think straight or use common sense. If you need rescued don't take the opposite extreme and not use it when you really should.

Cheers

Jamie

 

[Carcajou Garou]

Pierre, I agree whole hearted about not wanting to be rescued if lost/stranded (shame on me). Knowing they are looking for me I would give up and return only because I have failed and do not want the rescuers more distress. I have in the past, hopefully never again taken people out of the bush because they were very unprepared for any events that might happen. Part of this mindset is our very own media showing people surviving with nothing or almost nothing and gloryfying their survival instinct but realisticly only blind luck got them out. Also some of our own personalities expounding that you don't really need anything, just some knowledge and you got it made, most people don't even realize that this knowledge has to be aquired, does not come by standing close to an "expert" and leaks into you by osmosis. More peoples have very little to do with the wilderness and try to cram in the most into a few exposures if they get away with it they continue the urban myth of the easyness of being in the bush. Even on bushcraft/survival boards a lot have a false sense of ability and that self delusion the less is more (a bag of goobers and a multi tool, I'm set). There's no stopping it, humans will do it because they rely/demand/expect others for most of their needs and don't expand their own abilities or want to stand on their own 2 feet.

 

[BOD]

.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that while the Muppet family are being pulled off a mountain side in their speedo's in Feb coz muppet junior has a headache.....several miles over the other side of the mountain a well trained and well equipped person has slipped through no fault of their own and broken their leg and now there isn't a helicopter to go and get him. ...
What's the answer? I don't know but it's interesting hearing your thoughts

Cheers,

Bam.

Don't know anything about mountain rescue but won't they prioritise?

In sea rescue we would divert from the "out of fuel" and "battery flat" call outs if a boat on fire or serious injury occurredelsewhere and no other resuce craft could respond more quickly.

Seems to me that a helicopter can go over to the other side of the mountains or even several mountains a lot more quickly than a boat and leave the muppets with their headaches.

 

[william#]

OK, lets keep this friendly.

William - I REALLY hope you're being sarcastic... remember things like sarcasm don't cross over very well into text so be careful with what you type!!!

Nobby - Actually you are pretty much missing the point, the discussion was not about being calling for rescue, but calling for rescue when its not needed. A few years back before there were mobiles or before the signals were pretty good in the hills, if someone twisted an ankle most of the time they managed to make it off, if they weren't feeling that would only send someone for help if they couldn't physically walk off. Today people use the service because they don't want to suffer "a bit of hardship", would you call 999 if you ran out of plasters and cut your finger? Also I wonder how some of these people would feel if somebody died through injury/exposure/etc when they could of walked off the hills themselves... even if it took a bit longer.

Personally i would be VERY embarrassed if I had to call for help and this really is a last resort. If you're not sure what you're getting yourself into then research it, or take a course and learn. I've seen two cases that made me cringe, one was somebody in the middle of dartmoor trying to navigate with a map on tourists teatowel, the other was a pair of people that were walking up a hill in Oz in temperatures of over 30 with no water, they were seriously dehydrated before they got halfway - Both cases indicate plain stupidity and in cases like these, yes I believe they should be charged for a call out, or at least made to pay to send themselves on a compulsory safety course to stop it happening again!

Matt

lol
go on take a wild stab in the dark
of course it was tongue in cheek - though to illustate a point - which has been looked at here in great detail now .
part of a wilderness experiance is the self reliance - a few years ago i was walking with a friend at xmas on snowdon on the way down my knee went (pretty badly ,an old injury) my mate looked at could see i was in a lot of pain threw me his walking poles and said i will see yu at the bottom.
getting yourself in and out is part of the experiance which includes pre planning -i know you all know this
BUT
if you feel there is significant danger to yourself or any of buddies - if an injury is going to significantly worsen by walking you or them out(remeber life goes on and you have to go to work and walk the dog , a lingering injury could really make a dent in your life ).

then call in the rescue

(we will take the **** out of you mercylesly forever but we will also be glad you are alive and in one piece).

some one has also said here to plan research or take courses to gain skills to cope - you can never eliminate danger - i know you all know this already - and im sure you have all noticed how despite perfect planning you have to be able to adapt moment to moment when your out there on the ground .
also though i agree with the course and research aspect i hope such things never become compulsory as that would lead to yet another governing body wanting yearly subs off us and having to jump through hoops on some 4 day course .

 

[Bonzo Frog]

I'm lucky enough to live in Keswick in the Lakes and I have personal experience of privatisation under PFI of a large Goverment department (it doesn't work -unless you're a shareholder for that company) which is probably what will happen to the SAR helicoptors.
I'm also a member of SARDA Lakes (www.sardalakes.org.uk[/U]) who organise and run Mountain Rescue Search Dogs here in the Lakes. None of the dog handlers/team members I know would want to see people being charged for being rescued and would fight to keep Mountain Rescue a "free service".
RAF and Navy helicoptor crews have to fly a minimum amount of hours each month so if they don't use those hours up performing actual rescues they still have to fly practice rescues to get the hours in.
I hope that the privatisation of SAR helicoptors is canceled, I for one can only see a detrimental effect.

Bonzo

 

[Mantic]

Bump.

Abuse of the system is inevitable but what constitutes abuse is debatable. If I got into trouble in the wilderness with my skill-sets, then I would expect to last longer than most but does that mean we should all have years of experience and training before we can enjoy nature? After all, most mountain rescue missions could be averted if we stayed at home - a truly ludicrous notion but one that means everyone and anyone (young, old, fit, skilled and dare I say it, stupid / unfit / illprepared / et al) can head off and risk getting themselves into trouble.

It's a service we need in order to save ourselves from ourselves - to rescue us when our abilities are lacking and some will inevitably be a lot more lacking than others.

 

[Kirruth]

Though I don't think that people should call for help if they are feeling a bit tired, I do think that people should err on the side of caution when it comes to things like altitude sickness or injury. When people are below parr due to these causes its very easy for them to stumble or slip, so if they are suffering they would be best to get back to safety as soon as possible (or stay at camp in the first place). As the great Gerry Cunningham put it, "the best thing you can carry onto the mountains is a good night sleep": people should know and accept their limits, and realise that these limits vary month on month, year on year.

Gear-wise, personally I always carry the ten essentials even in fine weather, and put up with funny looks that come with wearing a rain jacket in bright sunshine.

Of course, there is always the approach they have in Japan, where the prefectural police are responsible for mountain safety/rescue, and will order ill-prepared people off the mountains.

 

[Shambling Shaman]

"getting rescued was about the worst embarrassment"
I fear I'm old enough to fit in that category, and would probably hide from searchers if I had anything short of a broken leg.

I am a member of my local mountain rescue team and regularly go in to other teams rescue areas to walk.
The standing joke is – if you get injured try to crawl back in to your own area as it would be sooo embarrassing for the other team to find you!

 

[william#]

im sure there must be some published already but if not is there a safety and protocol in mountains leaflet that could be distrubuted in national parks (im thinking purely uk here).
i know what you mean about embaressment - use to lifeguard beaches when i was a nipper and it would of been unthinkable to get in to trouble and have to be rescued yourself(is ego in the way here ) indeed two guys went in to a particularly heavy sea to get someone and though they saved the guy one lifeguard later had to be helicoptered out - yes it was a great resccue - ie they saved someone but he did get a bit of a ribbing later and for a few seasons after - but i will point out again it was a very heavy sea that day .


maybe there should be provision for subsidised moutain guides this would be good for several reasons one it gives employment to someone who has spent a lot of time learning wilderness skills it gives people a competent guide and they would learn something on the walk/trip too

 

[nobby]

Of course, there is always the approach they have in Japan, where the prefectural police are responsible for mountain safety/rescue, and will order ill-prepared people off the mountains.

And this is where we will be in the UK if the rescuers complain long enough and loud enough about the rescued.

What next? Subsidised wardens organising complete strangers into compulsory groups of three before setting out on a 'hills experience'? Full checking of kit at a park ranger station before being allowed into national parks? Only equipment made by those companies sponsoring the park or rangers to be deemed suitable. A sub police force to stop us endangering ourselves accompanied by charging to enter the countryside to cover the costs of our keepers?

We learn from mistakes. My own near drowning a few years ago taught me that for any transfer between shore and ship, or vice versa, I will always wear a life jacket. What I don't want is compulsory strapping into my lifejacket by the harbourmaster or his authorised representative.

It seems to me that if you are noble enough to give of your time and experience to undertake rescue work many, if not most, of your clients will be poorly equipped. personally, I'd rather live in a UK where the poorly equipped can venture into dangerous situations freely than a UK where we are all protected from ourselves.

 

[william#]

i think i have to completely agree with that nobby

and in ref to rescuers moaning about rescuies well we are english
and
not called whinging poms for nothing

 

[Don Redondo]

a good few years ago I was on the Watkin path up Snowdon and decided to turn back because of deteriorating conditions. On the way down I met up with another guy, also soloing, on the Lliwedd saddle. So bad was it that we donned crampons and roped up for the descent into the valley, which we managed ok, but a bit hairy, what with the ice, snow and 60 knot gusts

Down below it was much better, but you could easily see what it was like up top.

Just as we reached the Gladstone stone we met a party of 4 [2guys 2 gals] coming up, and it was pretty obvious they were'nt equiped. jeans, trainers, hoodies, and one day pack between them all. at this time we were still more or less geared up, but we'd just taken the cramps off.

My new mate stopped them and strongly advised they stayed in the bowl and did'nt even attempt the path. All he got was a lot of abuse from the lads. So he just turned to the girls and told them flatly... ' I pulled someone just like you off the mountain last week, she fell 200 feet, and came apart'.........

It was enough to have the girls stop in their tracks and refuse to go on. 'Please come down with us, I don't want to be back on this mountain tonight bringing you off in a body bag, and if you carry on that's what will happen'

They came down with us, and by the time we reached the Glaslyn carpark they were wet and shivering........

we on the other hand were toasty.... so we ended up giving them our hot choclate to warm themselves up.

No thank-you's though.

My new partner turned out not to be SAR but just a regular walker, but with enough experience to know what he need to say to get the 4 muppets off that mountain.

 

[william#]

top story love those tales
sometimes you have to take a bit of abuse like that - bet the guys gave you a knowing look shivering at the car park.
muppets yes but just probably dont realise that it changes a lot the higher you get - i mean youve been up top a lot so its probably second nature to you now .
still im sure they learned a lot from that experiance .
(and admit it there are few feeling more satisfieing than being prepared and clothed properly around poorely prepared people ,you know that little grin that appears )

 

[leon-1]

Some of the comments in this thread are beginning to worry me, the rescue services are there to rescue people, yes I have no problem with that.

That they whinge about people who are ill prepared either with knowledge or equipment I think is fair.

These people who work in the role as rescuers accept the fact that things go wrong hence they are there, so going up to get someone who has prepared and has fallen or had an injury of some kind that has stopped them there is understandable to them.

On the other hand people should learn and have at least basic safety kit, remember that each time the rescuer gets called out the chances that something could happen to them increases, people going into the hills or wherever without the correct knowledge or kit are not just risking thier own necks, but those of the rescuers as well.

No there is no requirement for park rangers to be there checking peoples kit, but the use of a little common sense would not go amiss as it isn't just your life you are messing with when you go out unprepared and with little planning.

So nobby when you are out on a hill unprepared, with insufficient local or practical knowledge and endangering the lives of others, please have a thought for those people who will try everything to get you off the hill alive and not in a body bag as they have your best interests at heart.

It may also be worth thinking about who's best interests you have at heart, because they are not your own or those of the people trying to rescue you as you will be the one putting them in danger as well.

Think on it before replying.

 

[Tony]

And this is where we will be in the UK if the rescuers complain long enough and loud enough about the rescued.

What next? Subsidised wardens organising complete strangers into compulsory groups of three before setting out on a 'hills experience'? Full checking of kit at a park ranger station before being allowed into national parks? Only equipment made by those companies sponsoring the park or rangers to be deemed suitable. A sub police force to stop us endangering ourselves accompanied by charging to enter the countryside to cover the costs of our keepers?

I think the point nobby is that the onus shouldn't be all on the rescuers, that's just not fair. It has to be admitted that some people just expect to be pulled out of a situation and therefore they don't do what they could and should do to prepare. Most people even with limited knowledge have the ability to make some preparation, but some don't because they just think they'll be looked after and rescued if they think they've had enough. That does seem to be unfair (IMO) on the rescuers that risk life and limb to keep people safe.

If people respected the role of the rescue services and took it upon themselves to limit the need for them (which of course is different with each person and situation) then there would be a lot less hassle for everyone.

There’s a difference between being rescued and having your hand held. It’s already been said that rescuers would rather get people than not as that’s their roles, that’s what they do, but some consideration would not go amiss.

 

[British Red]

I struggle with the appropriate mindset on this one.

Let me make a confession. I deliberately put myself in danger. How? Well, I take axes and knives out into the woods, chop wood, play with fire etc. etc. I also go to fairly inaccesible places and do things others consider foolhardy (shelter build etc.).

Why I'm struggling is that I can see that being characterised as "foolish and dangerous" and, as others have pointed out, I could be forbidden for doing this other than in a highly controlled manner which would ruin the point for me. This in turn says to me what is an "acceptable risk" must be personal. So, whilst I agree that being ill prepared can be seen as "fooloish and dangerous", I would hate to see over-regulation ruin outdoor fun for all.

In my mind, the right way to address this is "education not regulation". Otherwise we may all end up in a world where we need to qualify for an axe licence (axe only to be used on a home office approved cutting site under supervison from a chopping officer - not entry when green flag is flying)

Just a thought

Red

 

[bambodoggy]

I've just re-read the whole of this thread and would like to ask another question:

If there were no Mountain rescue teams (just didn't exist - hypothetically), would these people still be as willing to go tripping off to the mountains and wilderness with their cheap Argos tent and "shower proof" jackets etc?

I suspect not as many would and after a few of those that did ended up dead, no doubt everyone else would be banned from going too as it would be too dangerous. MRT make it so much safer (just by being available to call) that some now take it for granted....and it's those that take it for granted that I worry about.

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[bambodoggy]

Let me make a confession. I deliberately put myself in danger. How? Well, I take axes and knives out into the woods, chop wood, play with fire etc. etc. I also go to fairly inaccesible places and do things others consider foolhardy (shelter build etc.)

The difference is Red, that you also help to minimise and control the danger you put yourself into. You know you may be in danger using these tools so you have learned how to use them properly and safely (the number of people I know that walk with Ice Axes and Crampons in the mountains and when asked haven't a clue how to use them safely...but they look good) and you know what to do if you do hurt yourself with one (first aid training) and you carry a FAK.

To me you equate to the mountaineer or hiker that has used his common sence and so when things go really wrong are likely to have done all you can to stop it first.
The equivelant muppet in your senario would be the person that buys an axe at B&Q having never used one and goes off into the woods with no training, no experience, no first aid knowledge and no FAK.....and as we all know if you play with sharps then you should always have a FAK with you.

Hope that makes sence,

Bam.

 

[william#]

its kind of asuming that people walk out on the mouting thinking they will be rescued if need be or is it that some people are just ignorent to the risks and end up over there heads .
i kind of incline to the most part that people are ignorant to the risks and what is properly equipt- though i have been wrong before