Attitudes Concerning Rescue

[innocent bystander]

I remember riding home from the Winter Leek bike rally one January. My Gpz conked out the road by Pen-y--fan. Unfortunately it was a white out blizzard, the police were there calling everyone down from the hill, I'd not noticed my jacket was undone during the ride there - about 20 miles in crap conditions - and was getting hypothermic.
And the bugger at the MLTB place wouldn't let me in to use their phone

 

[bambodoggy]

In the time i was there i had to help countless idiots who ignored all the warming signs

This doesn't suprise me one bit. I'm a Tree surgeon and so often have to close footpaths and sign out areas where people cannot enter while I'm working.

Now to meet HSE regs these signs have to be pretty big and very clear....and still people walk past them! I've even had people phsically push one of my groundsmen, who's trying to stop them walk under a tree I'm up in doing crown reduction work, out of the way so that they could walk past!!!!! It's unbelivable but you can bet your bum they'd sue if I dropped a branch on their heads!

So in short....none of what you guys have said in this thread surpises me at all

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[fred gordon]

I was a member of a Mountain Rescue Team for 10 years. Although I agree that many people who require rescue could have avoided it by thinking ahead, having the right equipment, or taking the responsibility by ensuring they have the correct experience. However, walkers and climbers with years of experience can still get in to trouble. Accidents can happen to anyone. Most Rescuers are volunteers and would be firmly against a policy of charging for rescues, however stupid the victim.

 

[nobby]

Is it a new phenomenon? It's hard to say - we hear lots of these stories of lazy and stupid people because modern media makes it possible to distribute the tales far and wide very quickly. I reckon there were plenty of such people about in years go by too, but they just died without all the fuss of getting volunteer mountain rescue services involved.

Perhaps a 100 years ago instead of ringing up on their mobiles they'd just send their servant back to pick up their carriage or to go and get another wooly jumper. Or just turn up at a peasant's cottage and demand to be wined and dined and beds supplied until the weather passes or whatever.

In fact, Jerome K Jerome's "Three Men in a Boat" has a few stories where they fail to plan ahead and get people running around for them to try and find them a place to stay for the night.

I'm not condoning the actions of the people mentioned here in this thread, but I just think it's nothing new.

I believe that this is true and I sometimes wonder if we aren't seeing a developing culture of volunteer rescuers complaining about the people they rescue. Nobody has to volunteer to do mountain rescue or lifeboats.

 

[stone]

I believe that this is true and I sometimes wonder if we aren't seeing a developing culture of volunteer rescuers complaining about the people they rescue. Nobody has to volunteer to do mountain rescue or lifeboats.

I've been with SAR for over a year now, and went on about 15 callouts last year, but I have never actually heard anyone complain about rescueing anyone yet. The mind set of our local group is that if the person was found alive, hopefully safe and sound then all the training we do was for a good reason. I think if the volunteers are starting to complain to much, then it's time to move on...It's only natural to shake one's head though when you see people hiking way up in the hills and mountains with very little gear?? Makes you cringe....

We will however talk in amongst ourselves about the ba$tard seaches* that end up with the subject being found at the nearest bar, after we all take day(s) off work and not get paid for it...

*ba$tard search is the official term used in Alberta for people who are found in pubs etc, especially when we are out looking for him, after the family got worried and called the police!! LOL (hope I can use this term, if not please accept my apologies in advance)

~mike

 

[moko]

Dont get me started... this stuff really winds me up.
I remember Tony posted a thread last year about 'common sense' which I reckon just about sums up the world we live in; although lets face it, the trouble with common sense is.......... its not very common!

 

[greg2935]

I have never thought that people are thick and in my experience they do not intentionally go out of their way to put themselves in danger. I would have thought the lady with the rubber soled wellies simply did not know the terrain; something that most of us are guilty of at some point in our lives.
I remember the problems I had with british tourists when I used to take you walking in the bush on a game farm in South Africa, because you all wanted to wear sandals; again, possibly the most inappropriate footwear for an area notorious for boomslang (sorry do not know the english word); it is a snake, you have to get to Johannesburg within 24 hrs if bitten.

 

[Dunelm]

I pity the Thai tourists lost on the Langdale fells. I did a walk round the Pikes then accross to Bow Fell and Crinkle Crags last July and at least half of the journey was made in low cloud so thick I was walking on a compass bearing using clumps of grass as sightings. I didn't get much of a view...

There was a similar story several years ago about a group of school girls from a Jewish school in London who set away up a mountain in the Scottish Highlands dressed in skirts and blazers. Some of the more prepared pupils had thought to bring along bin-bags to keep out the rain. When the weather turned the teacher called the bus driver on her mobile and asked him to come and get them...luckily there were no fatalities.

 

[Goose]

I think a lot of people don't feel responsible for themselves anymore. I heard a quote that went something like, " We used to wrap kids in cotton wool to protect them, now people expect the world to be wrapped in cotton wool" his may be a misquote but you get the idea.
I think the amount of legislation, health & safety and claim culture make people feel like there SHOULD be someone there to help them if they get into trouble and it is their RIGHT to call for a rescue and they can sue if there isn't.
I have to stress to scouts when climbing that not following instructions can lead to be them being killed or injured and it is not a theme park ride that has fail safe devices. A lot of kids seem to think that they wouldn't be allowed to fall off an edge, no matter how daft they act, I suppose I had the same attitude at that age but because I thought I was invincible not because "it wouldn't be my fault anyway you are here to stop that happening!"
I actually had a kid of about 12 ask who he would sue if he fell off the climbing wall before he went on it!(I didn't allow him to climb!)

 

[bambodoggy]

I believe that this is true and I sometimes wonder if we aren't seeing a developing culture of volunteer rescuers complaining about the people they rescue. Nobody has to volunteer to do mountain rescue or lifeboats.

Ok....up until this point I had agreed with everything!

Talk about missing the point.....the point is that these people are a menace and should tale responcibility for themselves not whether the rescuers are po'd at them for having called.

I also don't agree with charging for callouts but it still winds me up when muppets abuse the system. I can gel with the idea that some people make genuin mistakes and I include tourists in that but that doesn't excuse lack of common sence. Accidents happen and accidents are caused, I don't have a problem with the first but I do with the second.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that while the Muppet family are being pulled off a mountain side in their speedo's in Feb coz muppet junior has a headache.....several miles over the other side of the mountain a well trained and well equipped person has slipped through no fault of their own and broken their leg and now there isn't a helicopter to go and get him. Daft story but you get the point.

What's the answer? I don't know but it's interesting hearing your thoughts

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[william#]

its perfectly acceptable to call for help if -
your feet hurt
you get bored and want a pint
you have eaten last bar of chocolate and there is only crisps left
it begins to rain
your pack is getting heavy
remember your fave show is on tv in half an hour

 

[nobby]

Ok....up until this point I had agreed with everything!

Talk about missing the point.....the point is that these people are a menace and should tale responcibility for themselves not whether the rescuers are po'd at them for having called.


Forgive me, but I think that you are missing the point.
'These people' do take responsibility for themselves but you go along and take the responsibility away from them. If you, and other rescuers, are 'po'd' at them for daring to call, then ignore them. They will soon cease to be a nuisance and the phones will only ring to the sounds of the well trained and equipped falling from grace.

 

[Lithril]

OK, lets keep this friendly.

William - I REALLY hope you're being sarcastic... remember things like sarcasm don't cross over very well into text so be careful with what you type!!!

Nobby - Actually you are pretty much missing the point, the discussion was not about being calling for rescue, but calling for rescue when its not needed. A few years back before there were mobiles or before the signals were pretty good in the hills, if someone twisted an ankle most of the time they managed to make it off, if they weren't feeling that would only send someone for help if they couldn't physically walk off. Today people use the service because they don't want to suffer "a bit of hardship", would you call 999 if you ran out of plasters and cut your finger? Also I wonder how some of these people would feel if somebody died through injury/exposure/etc when they could of walked off the hills themselves... even if it took a bit longer.

Personally i would be VERY embarrassed if I had to call for help and this really is a last resort. If you're not sure what you're getting yourself into then research it, or take a course and learn. I've seen two cases that made me cringe, one was somebody in the middle of dartmoor trying to navigate with a map on tourists teatowel, the other was a pair of people that were walking up a hill in Oz in temperatures of over 30 with no water, they were seriously dehydrated before they got halfway - Both cases indicate plain stupidity and in cases like these, yes I believe they should be charged for a call out, or at least made to pay to send themselves on a compulsory safety course to stop it happening again!

Matt

 

[wingstoo]

I have nothing but respect for the "Volunteers" of the Mountain rescue, life boats etc. At the drop of a hat they drop and run, they don't seem to care about who or why, they just get on with it and no doubt put themselves in the risk zone, they do it for no pay and usually no publicity, they just do it.

So, like most of you probably do already, get the change ouyt of your pockets and put it in the collection tins and keep these guys and girls ready to help, also remember that there are the back ground people, the Coast Guard, the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy with their Helicopters and teams, no doubt the Army have their teams as well, again these give time for rescue duties and a lot of it is in their time and not the militaries.

Yesterday it was announced that a lot of the Helicopter rescue stuff is being handed over to the Private Sector over the next few years, what will happen then is anyones guess......

So remember, give your money to these "Rescuers" they deserve all of our support for the task they perform so well....

To all you who are involved.... remember this...... :You_Rock_

LS

Support mountain rescue, GET LOST.......

 

[leon-1]

Yesterday it was announced that a lot of the Helicopter rescue stuff is being handed over to the Private Sector over the next few years, what will happen then is anyones guess.....

This is a very good point about privitisation of the helicopters, will we then be seeing the same dedication??

Will it be a case that when someone feels a little tired and call the rescue service they will walk away without a whacking great big bill??

When people do not have the correct kit and get into trouble on the hill or at sea are they then going to be responsible and are they going to pay towards thier rescue??

The dedication and valour of the services as they are is mainly due to them being volunteers, you will never be able to pay people enough to put thier lives on the lines in the same way. RESPECT is the only thing that you can say.

I have little time for people that talk the talk, but can do very little else.

 

[nobby]

OK, lets keep this friendly.
Nobby - Actually you are pretty much missing the point, the discussion was not about being calling for rescue, but calling for rescue when its not needed. Matt

My apologies; I have misunderstood. I thought it was about people venturing into dangerous situations when ill equipped and then calling for rescue.

Re. the post about collections for voluntary rescue groups. You can make a Direct Debit to benefit the RNLI; it may be possible to do so for others.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Some more to read!

the story

cheers
Abbe

 

[Keith_Beef]

I too have nothing but adiration for those who go up on the fells, down into the potholes, or out on the sea to rescue people in difficulty.

For the crews concerned, I'm sure that a rescue that brings back a survivor is a successful rescue. After that, comes the analysis of why the rescue was necessary. First and foremost, though, is to go out without question and "bring 'em back alive".

I've never had to be rescued, but then I've never gone very far beyond my limits, either.

I was also brough up in a family where you always wore belt and braces, took along a day pack (with kendal mint cake, bottle of water, flask of tea, firestarter kit and kagool) for a stroll on the moors.

I've been out on the sea in a 24 foot yacht, with the wind at force six, gusting to force eight, and the skipper turned back to port. I thought we could handle it. We were doing OK, it was a bit exciting, but nothing too hard, to my mind. But then that's why we were out with a skipper: he judged, because we didn't know how local conditions could deteriorate and it was he knew how much punishment the boat could take without risking losing the mast out in those conditions.

Thats the only time I've had to turn back from a trip, but I'm pleased to say that if I was out, for example walking from Castleton to New Mills again, and the weather turned nasty, then I'd know where to hunker down, keep out of the wind, and keep warm for a few hours, then take my decision to press on, turn back or give in.

Sadly, in our urban society of 24/7 availability, mobile phone and alwoays-on internet connections, some poeple don't get it...

After two or three jaunts out to ski resorts, they think they can handle a bit of drizzle on Kinder Scout, or mist on Snaefell. Then call for help.

The problem lies not in the cold, sodden walker, but in the sap in his hoody, clutching his GPRS telephone (that might have helped get off the hill, if he'd bothered out how to use the GPS bit, instead of the camera and MP3 player).

By the way, I believe that being resuced off the mountain in France is invoiced to the rescued person. The rescue is run by govt. (or mixed govt. and volunteer) services, and many ski resorts insist on insurance cover for rescue fees before letting you buy a lift pass.


K.

 

[falling rain]

'If you choose to play chess with mother nature, you'd do well to remember she has a habit of unleashing some stunning moves' - Deep survival - Laurence Gonzales

I think some people quite simply under estimate what the weather can do, and how quickly it can degenerate. They take on more than they have experience of, and become exhausted, lost, injured, dehydrated, hypothermic, heat exhausted etc. Try to walk too far in a day. Try difficult routes that they don't have enough experience to navigate through etc. I've done this myself on Dartmoor because I like a challenge as most people do. But the secret is knowing when to call the trip off when things start to go wrong and have a plan (escape routes, leaving details with a trusted friend etc ) You must not be afraid to turn back instead of stumbling blindly on hoping to find your way. I also think some people rely too much on GPS and fobile moans which have their place but shouldn't be relied upon. A lot of the scenic places we visit you can't get a signal anyway. As anyone who's been to Widecombe will tell you

Read this book I tell you. It's very good

 

[davedd]

i think this kind of stuff can be said about ambulances too. the NHS seems to be trying to pursuade the public to dial 999 only in an absolute emergency.