Why waste time and energy Batoning and Chopping??

[Bushnoob]

Ok so I always read of people saying that they would rather bring a large knife like a kukri or a Rat 7 with them rather than a 4-5" bushcraft knife. Main reasons because they'd rather have a knife that can chop faster and baton better.

I'd like to ask people why they would waste their energy building a shelter and a fire by batoning and chopping trees of unecessary size?

My Enzo trapper can take down trees 4" wide with ease with the use of a small baton, but even though it can do that why would I want to do that in a surival situation? Waste of energy and risk of injury, is it not?
Why not build a debris shelter that can keep more warmth than a lean-to and will last me a night or a few?
How long do you plan on camping out at your shelter while in a survival situation? Don't you want to keep moving and find your way out of the forest?

For fire I could fasion a wedge within 5 minutes and my knife can suddenly baton just as good, if not better, than a 6" knife, right?
Why not save energy and collect sticks off of the ground and feed them into the fire rather than chop them to size as you waste daylight and energy?

So I'd like to hear your thoughs as to why waste time and energy and not just use your head and build a shelter that will last you a few nights. How bad do you think your search squad will be? If they take longer than 7 days to find you in the forest you might be hiding in your camo'd shelter to well, or you might not be on the move leaving trace of your presence

 

[Siberianfury]

all depends, most of the time when im only pulling a one nighter i will do exactly as you describe in your post, however when its colder or im staying for a long period of time its pretty handy to have heavy cutting tools. i lived in the the woods for 6 weeks and one of the most important things to do was to cut firewood for the burner or firepit, at first a laplander and large knife was ok at a pinch, but after a while we decided we needed a bigger set of tools, an axe and bowsaw, bearing in mind this was to cut very large bits of ash, reason being that its preferable to have a fire burning all night, otherwise you wake up at 4am every morning freezing your face off, its not nice.

as for the shelter, i was living with my mate and girlfreind so i suppose a large shelter was needed, for a one nighter ill generaly string up a tarp or build a one person kennel as you described.

funnily enough when staying out in the woods 90% of the time i will use my leuku knife.

 

[Biker]

I would suggest that knowing how to handle a tool in all its potential uses would be a good thing. Bit like that first aid thread about Kepis's boys. Having the knowledge and when to apply it in a given situation is the key. Yes a knife can make batons, finding sticks already baton size is a time saver, but like I said being able to make batons means you're used to using a tool making you a more confident user.

Buhscraft and survival are two sides of the same coin, the former could be considered practice for the latter, but deep down you hope you won't have ever have to use "in anger" Kepis's boys used thier first aid knowledge and made thier Dad proud.

Better to be able to and not need it, than not have it when you really need it. Just my thoughts.

As for not leaving a trace for a search party if you left the crash site, well that's just asking for trouble.

 

[Xunil]

Are we related ?

I don't get batoning at all.

Never have, never will, and I especially don't understand why it has become such a bushcraft mainstay. Knives are for slicing.


Bushcraft, being a leisure activity of choice, allows us to take appropriate kit to use safely and efficiently. I guess If you want to minimise your kit to further challenge yourself then batoning could be required in certain circumstances but, for everything other than a proper emergency where any kit at all would make all the difference, give me either a folding saw, kukri, small to medium axe (in about that order) with a thin, sharp slicing knife.

 

[Siberianfury]

Are we related ?

I don't get batoning at all.

Never have, never will, and I especially don't understand why it has become such a bushcraft mainstay. Knives are for slicing.


Bushcraft, being a leisure activity of choice, allows us to take appropriate kit to use safely and efficiently. I guess If you want to minimise your kit to further challenge yourself then batoning could be required in certain circumstances but, for everything other than a proper emergency where any kit at all would make all the difference, give me either a folding saw, kukri, small to medium axe (in about that order) with a thin, sharp slicing knife.

i would agree that battoning is a pretty rare task, ive only ever done in in carving projects and of course when testing new models of knives for others, if i do batton i use a leuku as fiddling around battoning with a small blade is pointless, if the wood is only 4" thick then its not worth battoning unless everthing happens to be wet and its your only option, by which case use wedges, its so much less fiddly.

 

[Limaed]

Welcome to the forum. Have to disagree with you on a few points here. First off much as I like big knives if im splitting wood ird much rather use a small axe its very quick and efficient. Do I need to saw and split wood? Not always but in the winter often, I was out firelighting the other day in very heavy sleet after putting my tarp up as a shelter the best way to get dry wood was to saw and split.
You mentioned about saving energy, yet collecting wood off the ground is going to make your fire work harder and be less efficient. Damp or wet wood cools you're fire when it burns meaning you'll be inclined to put more on and have to collect more for the same warmth.
It seems your post is coming from the survival angle, most of us on here enjoy Bushcraft more as a hobby.

 

[Squidders]

Bushnoob you are completely right in a survival situation anything sharp will do.

I go into the woods to enjoy myself, not to be found by search and rescue people so my "needs" are different. I do believe most people like a big knife as a compromise between an axe which is, for a useful size, much heavier than most knives and a regular knife. I don't batton often, usually only to get kindling for fires (it rains a fair bit here in England and dry firewood is often only found inside damp logs). Another reason a large knife is amazingly useful is for clearing scrub and bushes as well as use as a draw knife.

Lastly "So I'd like to hear your thoughs as to why waste time and energy and not just use your head" implies that anyone with a large knife is wasting time and stupid which is fairly condescending / trolling for someone new to the forums.

 

[Bushnoob]

Are we related ?

I don't get batoning at all.

Never have, never will, and I especially don't understand why it has become such a bushcraft mainstay. Knives are for slicing.

Bushcraft, being a leisure activity of choice, allows us to take appropriate kit to use safely and efficiently. I guess If you want to minimise your kit to further challenge yourself then batoning could be required in certain circumstances but, for everything other than a proper emergency where any kit at all would make all the difference, give me either a folding saw, kukri, small to medium axe (in about that order) with a thin, sharp slicing knife.

Lol. We are not related and sadly we do not live near eachother. I have a buddy that is like Nutnfancy. LARGE KNIFE! CHOP! BATON! I don't mind that idea when you are in arctic conditions but wood really doesn't even get that soaking wet in those conditions cause the snow and frost on the ground isn't absorbed into the wood as well as running water. So in normal forest even during the winter you can collect some large branches to work in your shelter rather than risk damaging your knife because you like to chop. And if it is wet enough that trees will get soaking wet a brach will be better than a standing tree itself so just stop cut it until you can snap it off!

For shelters means you are better off breaking off branches and even then it will make a lean-to. No reason to get 4" diameter wood so that the back of your shelter looks more beefy. In the end the debris will end up being the shelters main source of insulation, am I right? Just make sure to pack the sticks closer together rather than using beefy wood. And as to fire maintenance you will most likely not get such a good sleep while knowing your situation so I don't see the problem in giving the fire thick branches and feeding a longer fuel log into the fire while you're still awake. A small sharp knife will be able to get through a 5" tree/ branch just as fast as a large duller knife.

One thing I like to think about it when people make a signal fire. You don't get picky by batoning and chopping sized logs for a signal fire, so why do it for a normal fire? Just use a V shaped tree area and place the wood between there to snap it.

Either way, I'd much rather have a folding saw on me for the most part. Dry kindling is easy to gather even during damp conditions, and then just use thick logs along a long fire for your fuel logs. As long as they can catch from a fair amount of kindling your fire should eat and burn itself

What are your thoughs about what I just said? Lol, I'd like to think I am somewhat right so I can feel a bit more confident

 

[Bushnoob]

Bushnoob you are completely right in a survival situation anything sharp will do.

I go into the woods to enjoy myself, not to be found by search and rescue people so my "needs" are different. I do believe most people like a big knife as a compromise between an axe which is, for a useful size, much heavier than most knives and a regular knife. I don't batton often, usually only to get kindling for fires (it rains a fair bit here in England and dry firewood is often only found inside damp logs). Another reason a large knife is amazingly useful is for clearing scrub and bushes as well as use as a draw knife.

Lastly "So I'd like to hear your thoughs as to why waste time and energy and not just use your head" implies that anyone with a large knife is wasting time and stupid which is fairly condescending / trolling for someone new to the forums.

I do apologize for the condisending title. I was in a bit of a hurry and couldn't think of a more "Eye-catching" title. I also thought that with such a title it would cause better well-thought responses for people that enjoy using large knives, rather than making them just say they like a large knife.

But even if you need to baton a tree for some kindling you only need a bit to get it going and then even when the fuel logs are wet they will be dried by the fire. So batoning will not be necessary for every bit of wet firewood you use. Even in a situation where you have a large axe, splitting every bit of wood is nothing more than a waste of time and risk for injury.

 

[Bushnoob]

Welcome to the forum. Have to disagree with you on a few points here. First off much as I like big knives if im splitting wood ird much rather use a small axe its very quick and efficient. Do I need to saw and split wood? Not always but in the winter often, I was out firelighting the other day in very heavy sleet after putting my tarp up as a shelter the best way to get dry wood was to saw and split.
You mentioned about saving energy, yet collecting wood off the ground is going to make your fire work harder and be less efficient. Damp or wet wood cools you're fire when it burns meaning you'll be inclined to put more on and have to collect more for the same warmth.
It seems your post is coming from the survival angle, most of us on here enjoy Bushcraft more as a hobby.

I do understand an axe is better for splitting and sawing and splitting is almost a must when in winter conditions, but that's where I turn and agree that you are better off with a bulkier knife. But that is why I do say that why buy a large knife when you can just carry a folding saw in your pocket with your knife or carry a small hatchet in your pocket. You'd have to be pretty silly to go into conditions like that unprepared without such gear and if you have crashed in a plane then you really won't have much of a choice for what gear you use, you just use to what is at your disposal, yes?

As for the damp wood cooling your fire and having to collect more I'd just have to say read the quote,

"But even if you need to baton a tree for some kindling you only need a bit to get it going and then even when the fuel logs are wet they will be dried by the fire. So batoning will not be necessary for every bit of wet firewood you use. Even in a situation where you have a large axe, splitting every bit of wood is nothing more than a waste of time and risk for injury."

This could be to debate, but as I said before, you should never be in a situation were you went into these conditions under your own will and did not choose to at least bring a saw or a hatchet. And if you were crashed there then still work with what you have because you won't likely have the tools of choice with you unless you packed them onto your plane personally lol

 

[Squidders]

I see where you're coming from but you seem more concerned with ruthless efficiency than anything else... I go out into the woods specifically to slow down and to waste time. If productivity was my goal I'd be in the office sending emails.

We need to rule out the risk of injury as a reason not to split wood as it's just as easy to bash a finger in while driving a wedge as damaging yourself when using an axe or large knife... and again, if I wanted safe, I'd be in the office where there has not been a recorded accident in two years.

The woods I visit are not littered with perfectly sized sticks for fires... Unless I can really avoid it I take only dead trees for fire and this means I get what I can find... so I will often drag a dead birch tree back to my area and the top branches make nice small fires that don't use too much fuel but still cook my food, make my water safe and make me warm... When I get further down the tree, I have the choice: discard the wood as it's too big and requires work and is a waste of time and I will die etc etc... or make the wood smaller to keep the fire to the size I want it. I have thus walked out into the woods only once to source wood and can process the rest from the comfort and safety of my camp where my stuff is.

So the myth that splitting wood is less efficient or safer than not is exactly that - a myth.

It is merely what may be good for you in the situations you experience or believe you will experience but others experience teach them differently. Taking one dead tree and processing it is far less destructive to an area than removing all the X-sized bits of wood and tramping all over the place.

And like I said, I'm in the woods to slow down and relax, not to be in survival mode.

 

[maddave]

I actually like batoning. Just another skill for processing wood. True you might not use it every day but When I was a tree surgeon we felled stubborn timber with a winch, but I still liked to use wedges every now and again.. Winches can break, so can axes and saws......

 

[Bushnoob]

So would prefer to bring a Laplander folding saw and a 4" knife, or a saw and a 6"+ knife? Both around 3.5-5mm spine thickness...

Would you rather make a simple thick wedge or just carry a larger knife?

 

[Toddy]

Well I baton all the time and I haven't knackered a knife yet. It makes great firewood kindling, breaks out blanks for carving, makes spikes, tethers, etc., and I don't need an axe in my pocket or to lug in a huge great knife on a walk to do it either. Besides, it's the wedge that breaks apart bigger stuff, not the knife, and the biggest knife I use is a Spyderco bushcrafter.

I would agree wholeheartedly that it's not the be all and end all of bushcraft skills, but it's a very useful one Patience, learn to do it properly, and it's well worthwhile.

Debris shelters take a lot of time to build properly, especially in our wet climate, "Better a wee bush than nae beild" is the phrase; adapt and be comfortable, one of those silvery blankets weighs nothing but it keeps you dry and warm.....mother nature doesn't make them though 2 for £1 however ain't going to break the bank, tuck it into the bottom of your bag.

I suspect that much of the disagreement really depends on your woods, your climate, your abilities, your situation.
Our woodlands are usually sodden wet, we are the people of the Atlantic islands, it rains, lots Wood on the ground is wet. Even dead trees are wet, though dead standing is as dry as we get. Stuff broken off trees is wet and unless it's birch bark it won't catch easily. Battoning breaks out the core into small stuff with wide surface area to catch flame. Same reason we make and use feather sticks.
A good laplander saw, a smallish knife and the application of thought, and I can do all I need

Bigger stuff, and I agree with Josh, a good bowsaw's an awful handy bit of kit
Unless I'm needing to build a cabin, and I haven't yet why the hang would I carry a felling axe around ? Great for a woodpile or really major stuff, or a settled camp, but not something I'm likely to have on my person in a survival situation. A smallish knife though, that's a distinct possibility.

Going out deliberately means I get to choose my tools In a way I'm more surprised that the survivalists aren't more gung-ho about learning to use a small knife to it's every advantage.


cheers,
Toddy

 

[Bushnoob]

Well I baton all the time and I haven't knackered a knife yet. It makes great firewood kindling, breaks out blanks for carving, makes spikes, tethers, etc., and I don't need an axe in my pocket or to lug in a huge great knife on a walk to do it either. Besides, it's the wedge that breaks apart bigger stuff, not the knife, and the biggest knife I use is a Spyderco bushcrafter.

I would agree wholeheartedly that it's not the be all and end all of bushcraft skills, but it's a very useful one Patience, learn to do it properly, and it's well worthwhile.

Debris shelters take a lot of time to build properly, especially in our wet climate, "Better a wee bush than nae beild" is the phrase; adapt and be comfortable, one of those silvery blankets weighs nothing but it keeps you dry and warm.....mother nature doesn't make them though 2 for £1 however ain't going to break the bank, tuck it into the bottom of your bag.

I suspect that much of the disagreement really depends on your woods, your climate, your abilities, your situation.
Our woodlands are usually sodden wet, we are the people of the Atlantic islands, it rains, lots Wood on the ground is wet. Even dead trees are wet, though dead standing is as dry as we get. Stuff broken off trees is wet and unless it's birch bark it won't catch easily. Battoning breaks out the core into small stuff with wide surface area to catch flame. Same reason we make and use feather sticks.
A good laplander saw, a smallish knife and the application of thought, and I can do all I need

Bigger stuff, and I agree with Josh, a good bowsaw's an awful handy bit of kit
Unless I'm needing to build a cabin, and I haven't yet why the hang would I carry a felling axe around ? Great for a woodpile or really major stuff, or a settled camp, but not something I'm likely to have on my person in a survival situation. A smallish knife though, that's a distinct possibility.

Going out deliberately means I get to choose my tools In a way I'm more surprised that the survivalists aren't more gung-ho about learning to use a small knife to it's every advantage.


cheers,
Toddy

Thank you very much. I think I can agree with every bit of what you are saying and I think it pointed out the mistake of my title by not stating the use of large knives. It is kind of hidden in the title sadly. I find chopping was more of what I was leaning towards. But I still don't care for batoning every bit of wood you have, kindling seems to be all of the necessity really.

The only thing I cannot see a small knife doing as well as a large knife is chopping. If you need to get the tree down this might be the harder task and in which if I had the choice to bring only the knife, it would be a larger knife. But with a saw and a small knife I can use a wedge to replace a large knife since the saw can take down trees more efficiently.

So for anyone else reading this I think the main thing to get out of this topic is why pack a large knife instead of a small knife with a kit that already has a saw or a hatchet in it. Why not just use a smaller knife, and let the saw do its job? Are you really that concerned about weight/ space?

I'd much rather have no space and carry the folding saw in my hands and have my bushcraft knife along my belt than just carry a large knife around the belt.

 

[Toddy]

Even bigger stuff, if you can bend it down far enough, the wee knife will go through it.
No where near as easily as the 'chopping' knife though. I've seen Artak's and the like used incredibly effectively

I think folks can get too tied up in 'onlys'.
There is never 'only' one way to do something. There's never 'only' one tool that will do every task to it's best advantage. There's never 'only' one tool that will suit everybody, in every situation.
Not everyone is able to use every tool properly anyway. I know I can only wield a felling axe for so long, and by then I'm beat, aching and well and truly have had enough, but I can batton and break apart with the wedges I make for a heck of a while

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Bluefrog]

saw and knife on my belt, if i need to do heavy work a small axe in my bag. It works well for me. each to there own. i've spent most of my time as a bushcrafter without an axe and got on fine.

Ste

 

[Squidders]

There's never 'only' one tool that will do every task to it's best advantage.

You are completely wrong on this point Toddy and it’s because you fell down a massive hole and started to flippantly generalise and I’ll explain why with an example.

If I asked about prepping a nice fresh trout to be cooked and eaten, the people who prefer to use axes will explain how their axe can do this, the people with big knives will do the same, as will small knife fans and those who like folders… And they’re all correct but they also know that there IS 'only' one tool that will do this task to its best advantage – a fish filleting knife.

It’s called the best tool for the job.

So in a completely generalist world you can get along with a small knife and a saw ok – If you have a task you want to achieve, why advise against people giving themselves the best advantage by using the most appropriate tool.

You may not have built, with a rolling-eyes smiley, a log cabin but I don’t care what you haven't built. What I haven't done I try not to tell others how to do. I care what I build and what I can become adept at using. You may have small hands that become fatigued quickly but that doesn’t mean you get to decide what’s appropriate for others.

I’m not “gung-ho” or a survivalist or a “sheeple” or whatever people want to call me when they think their preference, skill or experience applies exactly to me as an individual.

I had hoped for a more even response from a mod than to just wade in and declare that no tool is right.

There is a well known overlap between survival and bushcraft when looking at skills but I had thought bushcraftuk always had a more bushcraft than survival bias… like using my boxer-shorts to carry berries requires less work than weaving a basket but that’s not what I’m all about. I want to make a damn basket… and I won’t stop there, I may even make some parts of it to make it more aesthetic!

So why do people confuse survival with bushcraft and why when there is confusion between the two do people try to dictate right and wrong to others?

In short, if you don’t “get” big knives, get over it.

This post is a little harsh I know and I assure you I have (and love) many small knives and a saw! So you’re not preaching to the ignorant here.

 

[BOD]

Sometimes batoning or chopping is unnecessary I agree but some times it may be the most efficient option given the climate season etc.

For some environments particular tools are the best all-rounders and having a less appropriate tool can seriously inconvenience you or affect your survivability.

 

[Bushnoob]

I think this thread has gotten a little out of hand and I think that it is beginning to be used out of context. The main point of this was to get the opinion of people that like large knives as to why they use that instead of a saw or hatchet. I just found it to be a survivalist tool that doesn't belong into a bushcraft pack. It confuses me a bit sometimes when people aren't conserned about weight or carry but they still would rather have a large knife over a hatchet. I just don't get why they go out and make it a bit more tedious and more of a struggle when it is not necessary. Isnt bushcraft about working with what mother nature provides, relaxing, being creative and making tools rather than carrying them with you? Some people I know will refuse to carry anything but a large knife and I just don't see the point. They say they are practicing bushcraft but I see nothing more than firecraft and building shelters.

In a survival situation you'd either already have the tools that are on your person (whether it is a belt or pack) after getting lost in a forest, or you would have make-shift tools from the crash site and your clothing that you have on. Of course if you had only one tool to bring it would be something to make survival easier. Therefore a large knife like a kukri, but if you already have a hatchet and a saw or the room to carry them why wouldn't you use them rather than batoning and chopping everything with a large knife? It can be fun but why every single time?